Gun Finish - Clembert's Remmie

[kflach]

I saw the picture for the winner of the June photo contest in another thread. It's a beautiful picture of Clembert's '58 Remington NMA.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=366512

I've got a question about the gun finish. Someone describes it as being " color-case" - which I assume refers to the coloring of the brass. My brass 58 Remmie is starting to get coloration like that just because I'm shooting it regularly (170 rounds so far, using *nothing but Holy Black*).

Clembert, did you shoot your gun to make it look like that or did you use some kind of artificial finish (I understand if it's some kind of trade secret <grin>)?

I've seen this kind of finish on other guns - 73 Winchesters for example. Is this a specific type of finish that's artificially applied or is it the result of the manufacturing process?

Maybe I should also add, is it a bad thing that my brass is looking like that? Personally I like that look - it makes it look like a real gun and not just a wall decoration. However, if it means there's a problem with the gun I'd like to know.

The only relevant background info I can think of (regarding the possibility of messing up my gun) is that when I first shot it I used 30 grain loads for the very first cylinder of shooting and then went immediately down to 25 grain loads. The coloration appeared the first day I shot it. I've only used that high a load 10 -15 out of my 170 shots so I'm thinking I'm doing OK but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[ClemBert]

This firearm is manufactured, as you see it, by Uberti. I did nothing special other than place an order and lay out my hard earned cash. Actually, I acquired this firearm in a bit of a different fashion and you can read about that story here. The frame is color cased hardened. You may read about the process here. There are different types of CCH. Some are real, some are fake, some using more expensive processes that others. The Uberti CCH is actually pretty decent from what I can tell for a high production low cost firearm. The frame is made of steel not brass. The only brass on this firearm is the trigger guard as pictured. The barrel and the cylinder have a charcoal blue finish. The "charcoal blue" term is what Uberti uses to describe the finish on this firearm. Shortly, someone is going to stop by and tell you this isn't a "real" charcoal blue finish but some other process that gives the appearance you see. The finish is quite delicate and far from the ruggedness of a standard bluing finish typically seen on Uberti products. The CB finish is thin and most likely will wear quickly. Uberti states that the finish will eventually wear to a pleasant grayish antiqued look.

Here is a statement from Uberti regarding their CB finish:

WARRANTY NOTICE!!
CHARCOAL BLUE FINISH: Derives its name from the high-temperature fire blueing
process involved in attaining the deep royal blue color. Charcoal Blue is
more delicate than standard blue: the gun must be constantly oiled
and with use will become a desirable smoke gray “patina” finish
as on an antique gun.

Here is a statement from Cimarron regarding the CB finish on Uberti firearms:

CHARCOAL BLUE WARNING: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TOUCH UP CHARCOAL BLUE. This is a heat oxidation process. Chemical cold blue compounds will discolor the finish. DO NOT USE CLEANING FLUIDS such as lacquer thinner, acetone or bore solvents on charcoal blue, this will remove the finish. Use only lubricants such as WD-40, Tri-flow, Break Free, 3 in 1, Hoppes or Outers gun oils, Havoline, etc. Beer or Coca Cola will remove the delicate finish. Charcoal Blue is extremely delicate and with use will cause the firearm to appear aged and worn. If you do not desire an aged look we do not recommend this finish





It sounds to me that if your firearm has a brass frame then what you are seeing is oxidation...also known as tarnish.

[Doc Hoy]

Kflach,

It is normal for brass to discolor from the effects of shooting. (At least every last one of mine always did/does).

Personally I don't care for it, so I polish the pistol up with Brasso every once in a while.

I can understand how you might like the appearance it gives the pistol. I doubt it would hurt it to leave it as long as you are properly cleaning the pistol every time you shoot it.

I am standing by for those who are more experienced to tell me I am full of it.

Tnx,

[Doc Hoy]

Kflach,

I just did a little reading and here is what I came up with. The color of the oxidation on brass has to do with the amount of copper in the alloy. More copper equals red, more zinc equals yellowish green. I have seen the reddish discoloation on empty three and five inch shel casings. It is dull brown red and comes off with polishing. This coloration does not seem to be the effect of firing the round since these rounds had only ever been fired once (or perhaps never) but they had been polished about a zillion times.

On my pistols, I have seen two things happening. If I just let the pistols sit for a month or so, the brass gets a dull yellowish coloring (never the brown red that I saw on the shell casings) which is what I am accustomed to as oxidation or tarnishing.

But if I shoot the pistol, the brass takes on a relatively shiny redish patina. Either of these discolorations come off with Brasso but the redish stuff is harder to take off.

[kflach]

Clembert, thanks for that info. I didn't know anyone made Remmies with case hardening (mine is a Pietta). I did notice that the barrel was bluer than I'd seen on a barrel but I thought maybe you'd polished it up specially for the picture or something.

Doc Hoy, When I first saw those colors on my brass Remmy I thought it was some kind of tarnish as well and that I might have to Brasso it off eventually. However I came to kinda like it.

Looking at your research I've got to ask, is the brass stronger if there's more copper or if there's more zinc? I know the brass guns in general have a reputation as being weaker but I've also read a number of posts saying the quality control on the brass has gotten better. It'd be nice to be able to use this discoloration as kind of a gauge to get a feel for the quality of my gun.

And perhaps justify buying another one...
<grin>

[Doc Hoy]

I am no metalurgist but I think that up to a point the tensile strength of the brass is improved with higher concentrations of copper. It would be another good thing to read up on.

My guess is that the quality of the brass that is used by the manufacturers of such pistols is a compromise between; enough strength to make the pistols reliable on the one hand, and not so much strength as to make them too expensive to manufacture on the other.

My guess is that MCB knows more about this.

No matter what he, or anyone else says, I'd go out and get another pistol.

[kflach]

Hmmm. I wonder how my wife will react if I tell her, "But honey, it was Doctors' orders!"

<Another Big Grin!>

[CraigC]

To be clear, the finish on the imports is not really charcoal bluing. It's nitre bluing, also called fire blue or heat blue. As stated it is a very fragile finish that will wear quickly.

Authentic charcoal bluing, or carbona bluing, is an entirely different and labor-intensive process that few bother with today. Doug Turnbull is one source for this work. It is one of the most durable forms of bluing as well as one of the most beautiful. Far superior to your average hot salt bluing that most guns sport these days but much costlier to produce. The only current production factory guns I'm aware of that feature authentic charcoal bluing are those from USFA, most notably their Pre-War model SAA. Also available on other models or by special order at a premium over their hot salt "dome blue".

[grymster2007]

Beer or Coca Cola will remove the delicate finish.

Sounds like a warning directed at rednecks! I guess a 1998 Chateau Margaux Margaux, a healthy glass of Aberlour-Glenlivet 8yo or a 7-Up won't hurt the finish?

[ClemBert]

Sounds like a warning directed at rednecks!

Nothing said 'bout Irish whiskey or cigar smoke....guess we are good to go.

[messerist]

Clembert I cry everytime I see your Remington. I bought an Uberti in February and I hemmed and hawed over getting one like yours or a plain blued one. Frugality won out over beauty and I bought the standard blue...sniff. Beauty of a gun. How far do you live from Winter Park? Reason I ask is my Mother-in law lives near there and I noticed you are in Orlando.

[ClemBert]

You'll just have to pick one up then...no more tears!

BTW, I'm about 8 miles down the road from WP.

[madcratebuilder]

Maybe I should also add, is it a bad thing that my brass is looking like that? Personally I like that look - it makes it look like a real gun and not just a wall decoration. However, if it means there's a problem with the gun I'd like to know.

Polishing or letting the brass develop a patina is strictly a personal preference. I do both. On my shooters I well polish when I get them and then let them get a patina. You can even artificially aid the patina by soaking the brass in oven cleaner or other chemicals. I have a few 'commemorative's' that I keep the brass and/or silver polished. The German silver devolops a nice tarnish, gets a nice black look to it.

Your brass frame Remington is more forgiving than open tops when it comes to heavier loads. Keep an eye on the recoil shield for any signs of the brass deforming, you well start to see ratchet imprints if your shooting to hot of load.

By all means buy another revolver!

[kflach]

Thanks for the info on patinas. That's definitely not something I know much about.

[Buck Conner]

An old trick for making brass look like its been around a while is very simple. After cleaning your gun use the wet-dirty-blackpowder soaked patch to wipe down your brass frame. It will turn a nice patina on the brass as you watch it. Turner Kirkland of Dixie Gunworks showed me this back in the late 50's at a gun show in Phila. I have used this method ever since that time when putting together guns for reenacters.