03A3 bolt damage from burst cases

Herb Fredricksen · September 9, 2002, 02:51 PM

I fired a "new to me" Remington in a CMP match Sunday. The day prior I bought 100 rounds of French 1955 ammo at a local shop. The boxes were marked "Ball, 30 caliber, M2", while a CW reading of the headstamp says "4-55, F,
7.62, M1." The stuff was dangerous.

I fired about 50 rounds and had five FTF and, worse yet, two burst cases, lots of powder and heat on the face. The second burst case caused the bolt to be hard to open and impossible to close. A gunsmith at the range offered to look it over. The extractor showed a long scrapped area with a significant gouge at midpoint suggesting the bolt body diameter expanded at that point. The internals, firing pin and spring, etc., showed no damage. He determined the head spacing was good and that the action would easily accept another undamaged bolt assembly. He suggested I buy a replacement bolt body, extractor and collar. I went to the gun show in Greencastle PA. The primary part supplier looked it over, too, I welcomed his second opinion. He was out of Remington bolt bodys and collars but I bought a new extractor hoping that would do it. While there I bought two bandoleers of newer Danish 30'06 to shoot in the rifle in the next CMP match 9/22.

When I got home I changed extractors. The new extractor helped but the bolt was still tight on opening and closing so I think I need to replace the collar (on the possibility it has deformed) and the bolt body (as it may have deformed and gone out of round.) Springfield Sporters catalog lists both parts (Numrich does not list either) so I can order my phone.

Does anyone have any experience with this sort of problem or other suggestions on the fix?

Herb Fredricksen [email protected]

James K · September 9, 2002, 05:03 PM

It would be unusual for a burst case (I suspect you mean a split case) to damage the bolt, but it is not impossible. Escaping gas could have bent the extractor and the extractor collar enough to cause the problem. You might try taking off the extractor again, and make sure the collar is seated all the way around and that the lugs where the extractor fits are straight and that that part of the collar is fully seated.

Then mike the bolt body all the way around and compare the measurements from different places and also with measurements from a good bolt.

If you have to replace the bolt, be sure to check the headspace. General rule No. 1, based on my experience, is that French ammo is crap, and usually corrosive crap at that. General rule No. 2, you get what you pay for.

Jim

critter44 · September 10, 2002, 09:53 AM

Since the bolt locks up on two lugs AT THE FRONT and since you said headspace was still ok, I do not see how the bolt BODY could have expanded (the rear or safety lug is NOT supposed to bear). The only way I could see that is enough gas was bled into the bolt to cause it to expand and THAT MUCH GAS would have blown out the gas releif holes, back thru the safety shroud, into the mag well, etc. till you would have had MAJOR probems with the gun as well as damage to nearby living organisms!!!! (YOU!).

I agree. Remove the extractor and collar and try the bolt. That should show you if it is the bolt or extractor. You might also want to try the bolt with no extractor, collar and no firing pin assy.

Try to narrow the trouble down before you go replacing stuff.

Lose the ammo!

Best of luck.

Ledbetter · September 10, 2002, 12:41 PM

If you don't mind paying a little too much, you can frequently find original 03A3 parts for sale at Auction Arms and Gunbroker. I have purchased original parts still in the cosmoline, including a complete bolt body. I recommend you replace the whole assembly and count yourself lucky. Headspace after replacement.

It might be interesting to measure your French ammo and your Danish ammo with a micrometer and compare the dimensions. You couldn't pay me enough to shoot that ammo through my 03A3 after reading your description.

Regards.

Herb Fredricksen · September 11, 2002, 02:04 AM

Thanks Jim and Critter,

I did a basic check of dimensions all over the bolt body using a simple caliber and found no variation.

I'm pretty sure the problem is that the metal of the collar failed. Maybe the heat of the escaping gases weakened it enough to cause it to lose it's spring temper. The old hand of a gunsmith who looked it over at the range showed me where the metal of the case vaporized onto the surface of the bolt face and body. If there was that much heat it could have killed the collar metal.

Both extractors go on and off easily but I wasn't sure how to remove the collar. I assumed it was the equivalent of a spring clip and when I started to spread the tips to push it off the bolt body the metal gave. I stopped before it broke completely. Prior to that and after that the extractor was slack on the bolt body, not as snug as it should be. Seems a collar change is needed.

Before I break another what is the best way to remove and replace a collar? I can buy some combo of body, collar and extractor from Sarco or Amherst-Depot but the body and extractors I have should be usable once the collar is replaced.

I got my ammo money back from the seller in Rockville Md, he was quite apologetic, said he had not sold much of it and had no negative feedback before me. Later in the day I mentioned the incident to a dealer in Frederick Md. He had a bad experience with French ammo in a BAR (my recollection.) Blew the magazine out twice before he gave up on using it. Scary stuff!

Thanks, Herb Fredricksen

James K · September 11, 2002, 08:53 PM

As you have found out, those extractor collars are not spring steel, and in fact are rather soft. When replacing them, you have to spread them very carefully, then once they are in place, tap them all around with a brass hammer to seat them and take out the kinks.

With the collar off, you can test the bolt again and make sure that is the problem. Then maybe you can use the old collar, but I will stick with what I said before. I think the escaping gas pushed out the extractor and bent and stretched the collar. It may also have bent the extractor, so I would replace both parts. The extractor might not show any damage, since it is spring steel, but it may be bent out of shape anyway.

Jim

HerbG · September 14, 2002, 06:59 AM

You had FIVE failures to fire and TWO burst cases!! Didn't the first FTF or at least the first burst case give you an idea that something was wrong and that just maybe it was time to STOP shooting and investigate.

Herb Fredricksen · October 22, 2002, 12:32 AM

Well, Hello HerbG,

It's always nice to exchange thoughts with someone with the same first name, like finding an unknown family members. Your post of a month ago prompts my update to the forum.

Yes, five FTF's and the first split case told me something was wrong but I was committed to firing in a CMP Garand qualifying match, the first high power rifle match I had fired in 30+ years. I was shooting a "new to me" 03A3 for the first time and had to use unproven French surplus ammo, also new to me until then.

I expressed my lack of recent experience before the match started. As a courtesy one of the range officers volunteered to be my mentor and was at my side every shot. The $20 CMP match fee traditionally has included good ammo supplied by the CMP but the club had run out and we had to bring our own ammo. The only affordable ammo I could find on the way to the match was this bad surplus stuff. I've fired enough surplus pistol ammo in the last two years to know hard primers are not unusual. The first split case was a nuisance, the second ended the match.

I received two collars from Amherst Depot (friendly and great service) and replaced the collar and extractor. The scraping on the extractor body came from the tips of the two screws holding the aftermarket "match peep sight" to the receiver. That was not evident at the beginning and the bad ammo may have changed things a few thousands to cause the later problem. My gunsmith removed some metal for me and I'm take off more later.

I fired in another CMP Garand match 9/22 at another range that supplied good ammo from the CMP. I completed the course without problem and qualified for a Garand purchase. I stopped at Camp Perry a few days later and picked out a nice Danish Rack Grade M1 Garand. Meanwhile I've purchased 600+ rounds of Danish and PMC 30'06 ammo for future use. Problem solved.

Thanks to all for the TFL comments, they are greatly appreciated.

Herb Fredricksen

September 9, 2002, 02:51 PM	#1
Herb Fredricksen Member Join Date: February 7, 2001 Location: Gaithersburg Md Posts: 51	03A3 bolt damage from burst cases I fired a "new to me" Remington in a CMP match Sunday. The day prior I bought 100 rounds of French 1955 ammo at a local shop. The boxes were marked "Ball, 30 caliber, M2", while a CW reading of the headstamp says "4-55, F, 7.62, M1." The stuff was dangerous. I fired about 50 rounds and had five FTF and, worse yet, two burst cases, lots of powder and heat on the face. The second burst case caused the bolt to be hard to open and impossible to close. A gunsmith at the range offered to look it over. The extractor showed a long scrapped area with a significant gouge at midpoint suggesting the bolt body diameter expanded at that point. The internals, firing pin and spring, etc., showed no damage. He determined the head spacing was good and that the action would easily accept another undamaged bolt assembly. He suggested I buy a replacement bolt body, extractor and collar. I went to the gun show in Greencastle PA. The primary part supplier looked it over, too, I welcomed his second opinion. He was out of Remington bolt bodys and collars but I bought a new extractor hoping that would do it. While there I bought two bandoleers of newer Danish 30'06 to shoot in the rifle in the next CMP match 9/22. When I got home I changed extractors. The new extractor helped but the bolt was still tight on opening and closing so I think I need to replace the collar (on the possibility it has deformed) and the bolt body (as it may have deformed and gone out of round.) Springfield Sporters catalog lists both parts (Numrich does not list either) so I can order my phone. Does anyone have any experience with this sort of problem or other suggestions on the fix? Herb Fredricksen [email protected]

September 11, 2002, 02:04 AM	#5
Herb Fredricksen Member Join Date: February 7, 2001 Location: Gaithersburg Md Posts: 51	03A3 bolt damage update Thanks Jim and Critter, I did a basic check of dimensions all over the bolt body using a simple caliber and found no variation. I'm pretty sure the problem is that the metal of the collar failed. Maybe the heat of the escaping gases weakened it enough to cause it to lose it's spring temper. The old hand of a gunsmith who looked it over at the range showed me where the metal of the case vaporized onto the surface of the bolt face and body. If there was that much heat it could have killed the collar metal. Both extractors go on and off easily but I wasn't sure how to remove the collar. I assumed it was the equivalent of a spring clip and when I started to spread the tips to push it off the bolt body the metal gave. I stopped before it broke completely. Prior to that and after that the extractor was slack on the bolt body, not as snug as it should be. Seems a collar change is needed. Before I break another what is the best way to remove and replace a collar? I can buy some combo of body, collar and extractor from Sarco or Amherst-Depot but the body and extractors I have should be usable once the collar is replaced. I got my ammo money back from the seller in Rockville Md, he was quite apologetic, said he had not sold much of it and had no negative feedback before me. Later in the day I mentioned the incident to a dealer in Frederick Md. He had a bad experience with French ammo in a BAR (my recollection.) Blew the magazine out twice before he gave up on using it. Scary stuff! Thanks, Herb Fredricksen

September 9, 2002, 05:03 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It would be unusual for a burst case (I suspect you mean a split case) to damage the bolt, but it is not impossible. Escaping gas could have bent the extractor and the extractor collar enough to cause the problem. You might try taking off the extractor again, and make sure the collar is seated all the way around and that the lugs where the extractor fits are straight and that that part of the collar is fully seated. Then mike the bolt body all the way around and compare the measurements from different places and also with measurements from a good bolt. If you have to replace the bolt, be sure to check the headspace. General rule No. 1, based on my experience, is that French ammo is crap, and usually corrosive crap at that. General rule No. 2, you get what you pay for. Jim

September 10, 2002, 09:53 AM	#3
critter44 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 247	Since the bolt locks up on two lugs AT THE FRONT and since you said headspace was still ok, I do not see how the bolt BODY could have expanded (the rear or safety lug is NOT supposed to bear). The only way I could see that is enough gas was bled into the bolt to cause it to expand and THAT MUCH GAS would have blown out the gas releif holes, back thru the safety shroud, into the mag well, etc. till you would have had MAJOR probems with the gun as well as damage to nearby living organisms!!!! (YOU!). I agree. Remove the extractor and collar and try the bolt. That should show you if it is the bolt or extractor. You might also want to try the bolt with no extractor, collar and no firing pin assy. Try to narrow the trouble down before you go replacing stuff. Lose the ammo! Best of luck.

September 10, 2002, 12:41 PM	#4
Ledbetter Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2000 Location: California USA Posts: 4,533	If you don't mind paying a little too much, you can frequently find original 03A3 parts for sale at Auction Arms and Gunbroker. I have purchased original parts still in the cosmoline, including a complete bolt body. I recommend you replace the whole assembly and count yourself lucky. Headspace after replacement. It might be interesting to measure your French ammo and your Danish ammo with a micrometer and compare the dimensions. You couldn't pay me enough to shoot that ammo through my 03A3 after reading your description. Regards.

September 11, 2002, 08:53 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	As you have found out, those extractor collars are not spring steel, and in fact are rather soft. When replacing them, you have to spread them very carefully, then once they are in place, tap them all around with a brass hammer to seat them and take out the kinks. With the collar off, you can test the bolt again and make sure that is the problem. Then maybe you can use the old collar, but I will stick with what I said before. I think the escaping gas pushed out the extractor and bent and stretched the collar. It may also have bent the extractor, so I would replace both parts. The extractor might not show any damage, since it is spring steel, but it may be bent out of shape anyway. Jim

September 14, 2002, 06:59 AM	#7
HerbG Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2000 Posts: 111	You had FIVE failures to fire and TWO burst cases!! Didn't the first FTF or at least the first burst case give you an idea that something was wrong and that just maybe it was time to STOP shooting and investigate.

October 22, 2002, 12:32 AM	#8
Herb Fredricksen Member Join Date: February 7, 2001 Location: Gaithersburg Md Posts: 51	Well, Hello HerbG, It's always nice to exchange thoughts with someone with the same first name, like finding an unknown family members. Your post of a month ago prompts my update to the forum. Yes, five FTF's and the first split case told me something was wrong but I was committed to firing in a CMP Garand qualifying match, the first high power rifle match I had fired in 30+ years. I was shooting a "new to me" 03A3 for the first time and had to use unproven French surplus ammo, also new to me until then. I expressed my lack of recent experience before the match started. As a courtesy one of the range officers volunteered to be my mentor and was at my side every shot. The $20 CMP match fee traditionally has included good ammo supplied by the CMP but the club had run out and we had to bring our own ammo. The only affordable ammo I could find on the way to the match was this bad surplus stuff. I've fired enough surplus pistol ammo in the last two years to know hard primers are not unusual. The first split case was a nuisance, the second ended the match. I received two collars from Amherst Depot (friendly and great service) and replaced the collar and extractor. The scraping on the extractor body came from the tips of the two screws holding the aftermarket "match peep sight" to the receiver. That was not evident at the beginning and the bad ammo may have changed things a few thousands to cause the later problem. My gunsmith removed some metal for me and I'm take off more later. I fired in another CMP Garand match 9/22 at another range that supplied good ammo from the CMP. I completed the course without problem and qualified for a Garand purchase. I stopped at Camp Perry a few days later and picked out a nice Danish Rack Grade M1 Garand. Meanwhile I've purchased 600+ rounds of Danish and PMC 30'06 ammo for future use. Problem solved. Thanks to all for the TFL comments, they are greatly appreciated. Herb Fredricksen