7.62x39mm Home Defense Ammo?

LouisianaAviator · August 10, 2014, 10:32 PM

With the increasing popularity of AR15 carbines for home defense using expanding or fragmenting rounds that offer limited penetration.

Some may disagree that a self-loading carbine is good for home defense, especially in the city, but there are some .223 loads that have less risk of overpenetration than pistol rounds, and some people may want something with better terminal ballistics than a pistol, but don't want the buck and roar of a shotgun and more capacity.

Is there an acceptable counterpart load in 7.62x39 for those that might keep an AK or SKS by their bed, that has been tested in FBI-spec ballistic gel with 4 layers of denim, penetrating between 12 and 18 inches?

Wyosmith · August 10, 2014, 11:48 PM

2 years ago my wife and I both used AKs to kill all our deer and antelope. We used 3 different loads. 154 grain Wolf made exit holes in the game animals about the size of a nickel. Good kills but not dramatic.
The 124 grain Tula soft points worked very well. No bullets were recovered but all the exits were about the size of eggs.
The 122 grain Tula Hollow Points were terrible for hunting. All bullets broke up and made large horrific wounds but were only about 8-10 inches deep withh one only going about 8". No exits on even doe mule deer or doe antelope.
All were good kills because my wife and I both made good center chest shots, but I was not happy with the breaking up of the bullets.

That said, I would have to guess the 122 grin HPs would be great as defense loads within you home.

armoredman · August 10, 2014, 11:52 PM

123 gr Hornady soft point bullets over 27 grains Accurate Arms 1680.

But first, Wolf HP factory ammo. Pick your shots - no matter what you use in that caliber you are VERY likely to over penetrate any standard building supplies, and endanger someone beyond.

LouisianaAviator · August 11, 2014, 06:43 PM

Has there been any testing of the Hornady 7.62x39 shot into FBI-spec ballistics gel with 4 layers of denim?

Mobuck · August 11, 2014, 08:44 PM

I'm going with the Hornady SST or "ZombieMax"/V-Max.

WV_gunner · August 13, 2014, 04:57 PM

I got my AK for a range toy, but with a slight idea of home defense. After shooting it once I've decided that's a horrible idea, way too loud. Mine is a pistol however.
I've shot about every kind of foreign ammo you can buy, fmj and hollow points. The Russian hollow points are a joke. My friend shot a tree with some in an Ak rifle, dug the bullets out, and they hadn't expanded at all.
I've also shot Hornady Zombie rounds, they were a gift, and if for home defense is what is use. But if you can reload, I'd get some hollow points and turn the velocity way down on them.
I honestly think a rifle is a bad defense idea. Unless it shoots handgun ammo

Mobuck · August 13, 2014, 07:29 PM

"I honestly think a rifle is a bad defense idea. Unless it shoots handgun ammo "

And then, there are those who feel the only reason for using a handgun is because you can't reach your rifle(in a rifle caliber). I carry a handgun because shoving a rifle in my waistband is awkward.

Wyosmith · August 13, 2014, 09:26 PM

I agree with Mobuck
Rifles are the very best all around defensive arm you can use.

Ask the Generals of any army on earth.

Some rifle bullets will be dangerous because of excessive penetration, but an AK or and AR with frangible ammo penetrates home walls far less than most pistol bullets of 9mm and larger. That’s not a opinion based on feelings. It’s a fact.
It well proven and well documented.

tangolima · August 13, 2014, 09:46 PM

Rifle hollow point bullets are not built for expansion upon impact, like pistol hollow points are. Soft point or polymer point for hunting work better if you want expansion.

I personally don't see much point using rifles for defending my home. Exception is during civil unrest when gangs of armed looters roam around the neighborhood. For that 7.62x39 seems a good choice. M1 carbine is also good.

-TL

Art Eatman · August 14, 2014, 10:07 AM

If a rifle is the choice, and over-penetration might be a problem, then it's time to consider scenarios and tactics. Zones where you would not shoot. Angles at which you would not shoot. It could be that you'd change to either shotgun or pistol, and then consider the type of ammo. Smaller than 00 Buck in a shotgun, e.g., and possibly a 5.7 pistol.

But work on shooting skill so that you don't miss. Work on your brain and adrenalin control so that you don't go to sprayin' and prayin'.

SR420 · August 14, 2014, 11:18 AM

I have a couple cases of this soft point ammo for my AK

I also have a good supply of 220-gr. 7.62 x 39 Jackhammer Subsonic for quiet indoor events.

doofus47 · August 14, 2014, 11:30 AM

@SR420:
Did you have any troubles making those 220 feed?

2damnold4this · August 14, 2014, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Has there been any testing of the Hornady 7.62x39 shot into FBI-spec ballistics gel with 4 layers of denim?

I was under the impression that rifles weren't usually tested with denim.

SR420 · August 14, 2014, 11:56 AM

Quote:

doofus47 @SR420:
Did you have any troubles making those 220 feed?

No problems. It feeds through my Norinco just fine, and it cycles perfectly.

JD0x0 · August 14, 2014, 11:59 AM

Quote:

I was under the impression that rifles weren't usually tested with denim.

Yeah, I don't usually recall it being used in rifle tests. Probably because there's no hollow point to 'clog' and a couple layers of denim is no match for a rifle round. Where as, denim could be a much more significant obstacle with lower velocity (and usually lighter for caliber bullets) that pistols use, compared to rifles.

As tangolima, stated. Most if not all rifle 'hollow points' are not designed to expand. They're closer to match grade hollow points which have hollow points because the jacket can be manufactured slightly more consistently for better accuracy.

gyvel · August 14, 2014, 04:18 PM

I think any 7.62x39 round, whether FMJ or HP is going to be an effective home defense round. I know that I probably wouldn't survive a close range hit with one.

Mobuck · August 14, 2014, 06:04 PM

"Most if not all rifle 'hollow points' are not designed to expand"
Painting with much too wide a brush. ALL varmint type HP ARE designed to expand very violently.
Now if you're talking about European bimetal jacketed HP, that's a different story. I've seen those make some really messy wounds on deer BUT I lean toward the idea that the bullet tumbled rather than expanded after doing some bullet tests in wet newsprint.
I live in the country, can't see another house, and would have to use a compass to direct fire that MIGHT come close to an occupied home. If given an opportunity, I'll use a rifle for whatever I might need to defend against.

jeager106 · August 14, 2014, 07:35 PM

Mobuck makes a real good point about bi-meetal hollow points.
These h.p. bullets will NOT expand, they are designed to tumble.
I've shot both b-gel & water filled gallon plastic jusgs with that stuff & they do not expand at all. Bullets recovered from jugs showed deformation of the projectile in the form af acutally being bent somewhat.
Were I to use that round for home defense I'd use ammo like a ballistic tip that is made to rupture violently.
The so called soft points don't do a very good job of controlled expansion either.
I treat all that Chi-com stuff as hardball.

SR420 · August 14, 2014, 08:34 PM

Quote:

jeager106
I treat all that Chi-com stuff as hardball.

That is my intent.

WV_gunner · August 15, 2014, 08:30 AM

The threat of over penetration isn't just to other houses, it's to other rooms in your house as well. If they are anywhere near my son's room I would not shoot.
And I live in a trailer, as does my neighbor. The outside walls are 1/8 inch thick paneling, insulation, and thin aluminum. It does have 2x4 studs atleast. The interior walls are paneling with ferring strip studs. My son's room does have drywall on one wall. My bedroom is a room addition. It's drywall, insulation, insulation board, and vinyl siding. I use 9mm with ballistic tips in a Baby Eagle. If things get crazy I have a 12 gauge with 000.

SaxonPig · August 16, 2014, 08:45 AM

Nobody cares but IMO a rifle is not the best choice INSIDE the home.

1) Close quarters in low light invites an intruder to grab the barrel coming around the corner and I do not want a wrestling match for the weapon.

Yes...yes...I know that I am the only guy in the world who thinks this could happen. All the other men in the world are real men who would never let someone grab their guns.

2) Any CF rifle is too powerful when you don't want to shoot through walls and possibly hit people you don't intend to shoot. If you have to try using ammo that won't shoot through walls maybe the weapon choice is improper in the first place?

Outdoors these concerns vanish and of course the rifle is much more powerful than any handgun. That's why rifles are seen as offensive and handguns are seen as defensive.

But if you are determined to stalk the hallway at 3am with an AK47 go ahead. Your call. Just try to avoid killing your next door neighbor if you start shooting.

tangolima · August 16, 2014, 01:15 PM

No you are definitely not the only one. I thought I was the only before you said that.

I don't have a rifle for use inside home. I do have one ready for the remote possibility of total collapse of social order, like after a major earth quake or something.

-TL

Model12Win · August 16, 2014, 01:48 PM

I have seen various tests of 7.62x39mm hollow and soft point ammo from this gentleman on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...eaOXZLGBSiuBQo

This is a playlist of his 7.62x39mm test in clear ballistics gelatin. Very good stuff! I've been researching on what type of ammo do get for home defense and perhaps SHTF defense for my new Norinco SKS carbine:

August 10, 2014, 10:32 PM	#1
LouisianaAviator Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Location: Southeast Louisiana Posts: 53	7.62x39mm Home Defense Ammo? With the increasing popularity of AR15 carbines for home defense using expanding or fragmenting rounds that offer limited penetration. Some may disagree that a self-loading carbine is good for home defense, especially in the city, but there are some .223 loads that have less risk of overpenetration than pistol rounds, and some people may want something with better terminal ballistics than a pistol, but don't want the buck and roar of a shotgun and more capacity. Is there an acceptable counterpart load in 7.62x39 for those that might keep an AK or SKS by their bed, that has been tested in FBI-spec ballistic gel with 4 layers of denim, penetrating between 12 and 18 inches?

August 14, 2014, 11:18 AM	#11
SR420 Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 3,336	I have a couple cases of this soft point ammo for my AK I also have a good supply of 220-gr. 7.62 x 39 Jackhammer Subsonic for quiet indoor events. __________________ The History and Development of the M14 EBR

August 14, 2014, 11:30 AM	#12
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 2,483	@SR420: Did you have any troubles making those 220 feed? __________________ I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time.

August 14, 2014, 04:18 PM	#16
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	I think any 7.62x39 round, whether FMJ or HP is going to be an effective home defense round. I know that I probably wouldn't survive a close range hit with one. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

August 10, 2014, 11:48 PM	#2
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	2 years ago my wife and I both used AKs to kill all our deer and antelope. We used 3 different loads. 154 grain Wolf made exit holes in the game animals about the size of a nickel. Good kills but not dramatic. The 124 grain Tula soft points worked very well. No bullets were recovered but all the exits were about the size of eggs. The 122 grain Tula Hollow Points were terrible for hunting. All bullets broke up and made large horrific wounds but were only about 8-10 inches deep withh one only going about 8". No exits on even doe mule deer or doe antelope. All were good kills because my wife and I both made good center chest shots, but I was not happy with the breaking up of the bullets. That said, I would have to guess the 122 grin HPs would be great as defense loads within you home.

August 10, 2014, 11:52 PM	#3
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	123 gr Hornady soft point bullets over 27 grains Accurate Arms 1680. But first, Wolf HP factory ammo. Pick your shots - no matter what you use in that caliber you are VERY likely to over penetrate any standard building supplies, and endanger someone beyond.

August 11, 2014, 06:43 PM	#4
LouisianaAviator Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Location: Southeast Louisiana Posts: 53	Has there been any testing of the Hornady 7.62x39 shot into FBI-spec ballistics gel with 4 layers of denim?

August 11, 2014, 08:44 PM	#5
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I'm going with the Hornady SST or "ZombieMax"/V-Max.

August 13, 2014, 04:57 PM	#6
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	I got my AK for a range toy, but with a slight idea of home defense. After shooting it once I've decided that's a horrible idea, way too loud. Mine is a pistol however. I've shot about every kind of foreign ammo you can buy, fmj and hollow points. The Russian hollow points are a joke. My friend shot a tree with some in an Ak rifle, dug the bullets out, and they hadn't expanded at all. I've also shot Hornady Zombie rounds, they were a gift, and if for home defense is what is use. But if you can reload, I'd get some hollow points and turn the velocity way down on them. I honestly think a rifle is a bad defense idea. Unless it shoots handgun ammo

August 13, 2014, 07:29 PM	#7
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"I honestly think a rifle is a bad defense idea. Unless it shoots handgun ammo " And then, there are those who feel the only reason for using a handgun is because you can't reach your rifle(in a rifle caliber). I carry a handgun because shoving a rifle in my waistband is awkward.

August 13, 2014, 09:26 PM	#8
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	I agree with Mobuck Rifles are the very best all around defensive arm you can use. Ask the Generals of any army on earth. Some rifle bullets will be dangerous because of excessive penetration, but an AK or and AR with frangible ammo penetrates home walls far less than most pistol bullets of 9mm and larger. That’s not a opinion based on feelings. It’s a fact. It well proven and well documented.

August 13, 2014, 09:46 PM	#9
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,816	Rifle hollow point bullets are not built for expansion upon impact, like pistol hollow points are. Soft point or polymer point for hunting work better if you want expansion. I personally don't see much point using rifles for defending my home. Exception is during civil unrest when gangs of armed looters roam around the neighborhood. For that 7.62x39 seems a good choice. M1 carbine is also good. -TL

August 14, 2014, 10:07 AM	#10
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	If a rifle is the choice, and over-penetration might be a problem, then it's time to consider scenarios and tactics. Zones where you would not shoot. Angles at which you would not shoot. It could be that you'd change to either shotgun or pistol, and then consider the type of ammo. Smaller than 00 Buck in a shotgun, e.g., and possibly a 5.7 pistol. But work on shooting skill so that you don't miss. Work on your brain and adrenalin control so that you don't go to sprayin' and prayin'.

August 14, 2014, 06:04 PM	#17
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Most if not all rifle 'hollow points' are not designed to expand" Painting with much too wide a brush. ALL varmint type HP ARE designed to expand very violently. Now if you're talking about European bimetal jacketed HP, that's a different story. I've seen those make some really messy wounds on deer BUT I lean toward the idea that the bullet tumbled rather than expanded after doing some bullet tests in wet newsprint. I live in the country, can't see another house, and would have to use a compass to direct fire that MIGHT come close to an occupied home. If given an opportunity, I'll use a rifle for whatever I might need to defend against.

August 14, 2014, 07:35 PM	#18
jeager106 Junior member Join Date: November 24, 2006 Location: N.E. Oh. Posts: 527	Mobuck makes a real good point about bi-meetal hollow points. These h.p. bullets will NOT expand, they are designed to tumble. I've shot both b-gel & water filled gallon plastic jusgs with that stuff & they do not expand at all. Bullets recovered from jugs showed deformation of the projectile in the form af acutally being bent somewhat. Were I to use that round for home defense I'd use ammo like a ballistic tip that is made to rupture violently. The so called soft points don't do a very good job of controlled expansion either. I treat all that Chi-com stuff as hardball.

August 15, 2014, 08:30 AM	#20
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	The threat of over penetration isn't just to other houses, it's to other rooms in your house as well. If they are anywhere near my son's room I would not shoot. And I live in a trailer, as does my neighbor. The outside walls are 1/8 inch thick paneling, insulation, and thin aluminum. It does have 2x4 studs atleast. The interior walls are paneling with ferring strip studs. My son's room does have drywall on one wall. My bedroom is a room addition. It's drywall, insulation, insulation board, and vinyl siding. I use 9mm with ballistic tips in a Baby Eagle. If things get crazy I have a 12 gauge with 000.

August 16, 2014, 08:45 AM	#21
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	Nobody cares but IMO a rifle is not the best choice INSIDE the home. 1) Close quarters in low light invites an intruder to grab the barrel coming around the corner and I do not want a wrestling match for the weapon. Yes...yes...I know that I am the only guy in the world who thinks this could happen. All the other men in the world are real men who would never let someone grab their guns. 2) Any CF rifle is too powerful when you don't want to shoot through walls and possibly hit people you don't intend to shoot. If you have to try using ammo that won't shoot through walls maybe the weapon choice is improper in the first place? Outdoors these concerns vanish and of course the rifle is much more powerful than any handgun. That's why rifles are seen as offensive and handguns are seen as defensive. But if you are determined to stalk the hallway at 3am with an AK47 go ahead. Your call. Just try to avoid killing your next door neighbor if you start shooting.

August 16, 2014, 01:15 PM	#22
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,816	No you are definitely not the only one. I thought I was the only before you said that. I don't have a rifle for use inside home. I do have one ready for the remote possibility of total collapse of social order, like after a major earth quake or something. -TL

August 16, 2014, 01:48 PM	#23
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	I have seen various tests of 7.62x39mm hollow and soft point ammo from this gentleman on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...eaOXZLGBSiuBQo This is a playlist of his 7.62x39mm test in clear ballistics gelatin. Very good stuff! I've been researching on what type of ammo do get for home defense and perhaps SHTF defense for my new Norinco SKS carbine: