Forend Lights...who uses them who doesnt and why?

[Nimitz87]

as the topic says gentlemen.

whats the story on "tactical" forend lights? i mean isnt it bad to give your position away (the light) and to keep in darkness? or am i wrong here?

what are the advantages and disadvantages of using a forend light?

i was possibly considering buying a surefire forend...still thinking about it and how "useful" it would be.

so whats the consenus?

Chad

[hawken50]

what are the advantages and disadvantages of using a forend light

advantages- you can see them
disadvantages- they can see you

[sm]

what are the advantages and disadvantages of using a forend light

-Well the eyes of deer light up real well - it is explaining to the officer why you had to "defend" yourself against said deer that is the r-e-a-l tricky part.
-Real bitch to get them Doves to fly or the quail to flush at night too - I guess with a really good bird dog this would work.


My points being : How experienced are you with a shotgun? Have you had proper instruction? Have you attended training with Awerbuck or similar? Does the gun fit you? Does the gun fit you for task? Is this an all purpose shotgun for HD, Hunting one type of critter or again all purpose Critter Cruncher? Is this a dedicated shotgun in a platform you are already familar with? [ See one might want to have a shorter LOP if wearing a Dept Issued vest, and a regular one to use for other stuff - Same MOA - just different tools for different tasks] ...I could on.

I am a civilian. I use a bone stock pump shotgun with a 28" bbl for everything. Now I have hundreds of thousands of rds fired behind me. Hours of instructions, training if you will. Fur, Fowl, Clay , Critter, no matter how many legs - I can fell it. I have tossed my bone stock Pump gun in its baseball bat carrier bag and used it to babysit a business, or home.

My role is to defend, not go house clearing, or looking for trouble. I call direct line to the nice Officer at the Station, tell him the situation, a password for us to exchange and I hole up behind cover. Critter invades my space and I am in immediate fear of life - " Officer Sir - might want to call for. the meat wagon - Critter found my hiding place".

Now what I would do is find a gun that fits me. I mean fitted / advised by someone that knows what they are doing before I bought the gun. I would have already shot a variety to know under proper advisment.

Then I would take that bone stock gun that fits me to an Awerbuck class. Then I would learn by listening and doing what Awerbuck says I need for my shotgun for the tasks intended. Word is Awerbuck is not bashful about giving Pros and Cons about stuff .

Oh I did night training all right. My mentors had me do this with and without a Maglight. I also did a lot of shooting with a 870 with the safety removed - on purpose. Mentors didn't care. ROs and such didnt' care when I competed with that gun either- just told them same as a fella would using release triggers.

I do not do this "racking" to instill fear dealie either. Why in the hell would I want to give away my position to a BG, or spook a deer, turkey by doing this??

I load that sucker up , keep a round in the chamber and "snick and shoot" - that is if that gun has a safety...

[joshua]

Hard to decide on this. If I really need to go on the offensive in my house I would like a fore-end mounted light such as a surefire. Hmmm... come to think of it, I definitely would try the light switch first. josh

[mete]

It provides an excellent aiming point for the BG. On an auto it may effect reliabile functioning. This has happened on Benellis.

[K80Geoff]

I feel this way: A pump shotgun is a very simple tool that has worked well for over a century. Why complicate a wonderfully simple and reliable tool by hanging a lot of junk on it.

Simple is good!

Get a good pump/auto and buy ammo to shoot. Learn the gun, become one with it

Once shot a round of Sporting Clays with a group. We were all shooting 870's. Guess who had problems, the guy with the tricked out Marine Magnum wit all the gee gaws.

I am old school, Infantry trained (Ft Benning). Any type of light at night is bad, an aiming stake for the other guy.


KISS

[Double Naught Spy]

The real advantage is that you have light if you NEED it. Personally, I like to use ambient light whenever possible, but it isn't always possible.

joshua, it has nothing to do with being on the offensive any more than firing your gun means you are on the offensive.

So you need some light. Ever tried running a handheld while trying to control the recoil of a shotgun or while trying to pump a pump shotgun?

K80Geoff is old infantry from Ft. Benning and thinks any light is a bad thing, but if you see our military folks in Fallujah clearing houses, you will see them with forend lights on a lot of the long guns.

Look, a light on the forend is just an option. Like shooting, you don't necessarily have to use your light or shoot, but if the time comes, you may need one or both.

What if you want to clear a dark closet where the light is out or the closet simply doesn't have a light? What do you do? Is the light on your shotgun going to give you away? No, opening the closet door and looking inside will do that just fine. The bad guy will know you are there before you know he is there but you can up your odds by flooding the closet with light and actually seeing the bad guy if he is there.

[PJR]

sm has the right idea. Defense is the game. I'm unqualified, too old and without back-up. I'm damn sure not going to do some kind of Rambo-like house clearing exercise. Snug as a bug until the cavalry arrives is my motto. The insurance company can deal with any property loss.

The problem with a foreend light is similar to using your rifle scope instead of binoculars. Everything you light up is on the business end of a loaded shotgun whether you intend to shoot or not. That violates some of the essential rules of gun safety.

That said I have a detachable light mount on an 870 for those forays outside the house at night. We live in the country and the problem here is four legged predators not two. When I do go out it is with a Surefire flashlight AND a light mounted on the gun. I do my searching around with the flashlight and IF I have to go to the gun will drop the hand light and transition to the gun light. With a little practice I got the move down quite smoothly. This way the gun doesn't get pointed inadvertently and I have the advantages of a gun light should I need it.

[ATW525]

I'd say a light, whether handheld or firearm mounted is good idea if you don't live alone. That "burgler" could simply be your teenager trying to sneak back into the house stealthily in the middle of the night, in which case you'll probably be pretty thankful for having a light source with which to positively ID them (though depending on why they're sneaking back into the house, you might want to shoot them anyways ). Unfortunately electricians don't give much thought to tactical considerations when wiring homes, so a light switch might not always be located where you need it.

[delzo]

Just a couple of points. The idea is to see objects that might or might not be able to hurt you and be able to tell the difference.

The sequence goes: swipe light beam across the area and MOVE. Light up area and Move.

Remember,,,,if you shine it in the bad-guy's eyes, he is now temporarily blinded. And if you MOVED,,,you aren't where he last thinks you are.

Food for thought.

[joshua]

I see the light now (no pun intended). I think the same theory should apply to lights, "It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." josh

[sendec]

People equate weapon mounted lights with flashlights and it just doesnt work that way. The weapon mounted light is for confirming the identity of a target and confirming sight picture. It ideally isnt used for searching, though on a long gun sometimes that is unavoidable.

[AAshooter]

You need to think about why you have a tactical light to start with. Usually for three reasons: 1) To be able to navigate, 2) To be able to ID targets and whether they are threats, and 3) To be able to get good sight alignment and sight picture.

With a long gun (less so with a handgun), running your weapons system while needing a tactical light is greatly simplified with an attached light. This is especially true for non semi-auto guns or during malfunctions. A detached light is probably more flexible when trying to address issues #1 and #2 above.

So for defensive situations, if you are willing to shoot anyone coming up the stairs without being able to see if the have a weapon or not, you probably don't need a light. If you don't want to shoot your drunk (stupid) neighbor's kid that got the wrong house, you might want the light.

[azspyder]

Here's my uneducated 2 cents worth. I say uneducated because I'm relatively new to shotguns and I still learning. My 870 is not used for anything other than HD...18", 6 round mag, Stockshox (in deference to my screwed-up shoulder), 4 sidesaddle rounds and a bracket mounted Surefire. The light has a remote switch on the forend. The tactical class I am now taking teaches us to use ambient light, if possible, for manuveur and to use the weapon light momentarily to ID the target and blind the BG. Then move! Around here at least, most home break ins are by unarmed burglars. They don't know their way around the house...you do. My plan is to stay where I am (my fire lanes are pre-cleared) and let him come to me. BTW, I'm 73, so not too agile :-)

[WeaponX]

There are a lot of different arguements about mounting a light on any weapon. I personally don't have a dedicated HD shotgun. I have a 28" field grade Winchester 1300. Instead I use a SA XD9 with a Streamlight M3X mounted on it for home defense.

This topic recently came up in my college course on Criminal Law. My professor, a vetern police officer of 13 years and a former Army MP, who is now a practicing lawyer, pushed very heavily FOR the light. His reasoning is that Target Identification is priceless when trying to prove self defense in any shooting case. Shooting an unarmed person is much harder to defend. This point of course depends on if you live in a state which has "The Castle Doctrine" or "Retreat Doctrine".

I personally think it is a good idea. If you don't want it to give away your position, then don't turn it on. But at least it's there if you need it.

It's better to have and not need than need and not have. Especially when you life is at stake.

WeaponX

[Double Naught Spy]

If you don't want to shoot your drunk (stupid) neighbor's kid that got the wrong house, you might want the light.

Being drunk and stupid may be very unfortunate for the neighbor's kid. I personally don't buy into the stories of people getting the "wrong" house because they usually have to B&E to be in the house. If they have to commit B&E and don't realize it is the wrong house, my guess is that they aren't really in the wrong house.

Of course, that is just my opinion after living most of my life in college towns where people frequently claimed to be in the wrong house by mistake, but sometimes turning out to be tied to previous rapes thanks to DNA evidence.

Besides, the neighbor's kid isn't very nice anyway.

[Denny Hansen]

I have a light mounted on every long gun that may be used for home defense. Before you shoot you must positively ID the target. It's great to say that you would not give away your position to an armed bad guy, but you have to see that he is armed before you know he is armed. What if the BG has a friend hiding in the dark. With a light you can ascertain if the BG is alone or you have to deal with other threats -- and if they are armed.

OK, you've fired and the BG is down, but not dead. Try calling the cavalry with one hand, covering down on the BG with your shotgun, while holding your handheld light with your third hand so you can see he is not picking up his piece. Oops... no third hand.

Go with your gut on this, but I'm firmly in the "a light is a good thing" camp.

Denny

[Nnobby45]

whats the story on "tactical" forend lights? i mean isnt it bad to give your position away (the light) and to keep in darkness? or am i wrong here?

Denny stated things pretty well, and so did some others. You must ID the target before you shoot. The SureFire fore-arm that adorns my 870 is operated with the fingers of the support hand. It is a pressure switch that turns the light on instantly and off when you release the pressure. Obviously you must ID the target and decide to shoot/not shoot quickly.

The pressure switch also allows you to peak around a corner from cover and bounce a quick burst of light off the ceiling to check a room. The permanent ON/OFF switch is seldom used, but could be useful in holding someone on the floor at gun point, and may allow you to operate the phone with the other hand. Tricky, but doable.

My tritium front sight is great for getting on the target in very dim light if you KNOW your target is hostile, but does nothing to ID it.

You might turn the light on and there's Uncle Henry going for a snack, or it could just be your mother in law (decisions, decisions ) If you ID and intruder, then, now that you've blinded him, you may also have to shoot. Should he surrender, then here's where the ON switch may be useful, as mentioned.

For outdoor use during daylight, I remove the light and use the plug that you can get from SureFire. I'm not familiar with other light systems.

[GunsnRovers]

For the reasons above, I have a light mounted on my HD gun.

There is no "pause" button on the trigger. Once the 8 00 pellets go down range there is not going back. I want to make sure I know what I'm shooting.

[Nimitz87]

seems like i'll be getting a surefire forend....

which ones do you guys have the 6v or 9v?

how "bright" is bright enough? i was thinking the 918FA...for $50 more you get a light thats twice as bright....

Chad

[Nnobby45]

The SureFire is a 6v--plenty adequate.

[zx11rider]

I have lights on both my pistol and shotgun when set up for HD. Rather have it and not need it/decide not to use it versus having to spare a hand to hold a light.

I have the Streamlight m3x on my Benelli M1. Works great.

[sm]

I want to bring this often asked and very good question back to top again if I may. I had some folks contact me,basically the question was Denny and you Steve disagreed - how come?

Answer: Training

I am comfortable enough to post this and Denny and I have corresponded before on various things, so I have no problems with my answer, and Denny and I actually agree on matters. We agree to disagree. If nothing else getting folks to Think, be responsible and get training is what this forum - this thread is all about.

MY training has NOT been at Awerbuck's or similar. Mine was more one-on-one with folks having Military and / or LEO training many many years ago. Before sidesaddles, extended mags or Surefires [ any light systems] were available. I take one thing back, Dept guns sometimes had the extended mag of one or two rds. Maglights were the lights officers used.

MY Shotgunning was a LOT of Clays , hunting and such. The nature of a business I was in - my biggest concerns was entering or leaving a premise. My " life experiences" if you will - well BTDT , let us leave it at that shall we?

Now some things I know about shotgunning. Gun has to fit the shooter for task. Gun has to be reliable with ammo. Pattern board will reveal what that bbl does with that ammo at that distance.

Now I admit I do have a LOT of trigger time and rds downrange with shotguns. I also just admitted I do NOT have the training of today with the offerings of Surefires and such.

As I have told Denny and many many folks, I ever get a chance to train - I want to do so with Awerbuck. I will show up with a bone stock shotgun that fits, then say " Mr. Awerbuck, unlearn me, then teach me". I will then let Awerbuck tweak my gun fit [ and we all know how much I harp on gun fit] show me how to use a light on the forearm, and everything else.

My role in teaching new shooters has been Kids, ladies, and folks to shoot. Some I taught to shoot skeet, in order to be better bird shooters. Kids - I have soft spot for, they may want to go dove / small game hunting. Ladied, run the gamut from HD to skeet to general hunting. I also have taught the elderly and those with disabilites from surgeries, to arthritis to whatever.

Denny hit on the fact you may have to dial a phone and keep the BG at bay.

I have had many folks that cannot physically do this with the many tactically equipped shotguns. I catch flak if I mention any other platform than a 12 bore tactically equipped shotgun. I catch flak if I mention a big guy can shoot a smaller /lighter gun - the teenager/ wife cannot always handle the big guys tactical gun.

Folks the name of the game is to survive. My role has been to teach to that person the basics. I always always suggest they get more advanced training.

Michael Plaxco shared with me many things - one is the basics never change- one constantly ingrains the basics.

Some of my students have taken further instruction in various disciplines, be it clay games or HD.

I also have the single mom's , that have been in an abusive relationship, trying to raise a kid perhaps. I catch flak for the $50 Pawn shop single shot shotguns of yesteryear. Then again that is all she could afford, I trained her in the 4 rules of safety and how to use that shotgun. Later on she could progress to the next level(s) when money became availble.

The retired LEO with diabetes, one foot amputated and so arthritic he cannot shoot a handgun, well he uses a bone stock shotgun, a double bbl at that. We had to find what fit him - for his task.

The main things I do/ have done with these folks after the 4 rules, getting a gun that fits, ammo reliabilty and such - 1) mindset, 2) security of the premise. Better locks, motion lights, phones, safe room, a plan, practice these plans with kids, family, teach the kid to not open the door when the door bell rings...etc.

So Denny and I did not disagree. I admitted my faults and lack of training. Denny has a different background than I. He has and continues to train. Denny started with the basics, he took upper level classes - and you know what - Denny Still continues to take the basic level classes over and over.

I take the ability to defend one's self very serious. Everyone has a right - even kids. Kids are human beings too. Teach the 4 rules and train them for that stage of developement and responsiblity they can handle.

We have shotgunners, then we have folks that collect shotguns and accessories. The former can defend, be it a bone stock shotgun, or one more tactically set up and the user trained by Awerbuck. The later will get themselves or others hurt or worse.

Gimme a old fart that shot lots of skeet and bird hunted with a bone stock model 12 to watch my six over the wannabe, with the most ultimate tactical shotgun, rarely shot , never trained.

Misseldine said Good shooters are made - not born.

Yeah get a light and get trained up on how to use it.

[R1145]

I like the aesthetic of the old stripped-down pump, but the lights are probably a good idea. Most shootings occur at night, and if you need a light to see the target, it must be attached to the shotgun, unless you have a third hand.

I don't think it needs to be super-powerful, just enough to illuminate a man-sized target at, say, 25 yards.

Most of the guns in my department now have foreend lights. We train to minimize the time the light is on.

I'm an old Infantryman, myself, and if I want to be in stealth-mode, I have the choice of not turning on the light...

[sm]

Two nights ago I went outside to the front porch to smoke. There was the squeal of tires, no headlights on, seven small caliber shots rang out in rapid fire less than a half a block from me.

Stop - Drop - Roll.

I am 50 y/o and by the 3rd shot I had hit the porch and rolled off the two foot plus drop to the lawn, into a shrub,then scooting back behind the angle of concrete porch.

Shot were fired the other direction,[later learned] understand I was not really concerned about the "where" of the shots at the time - I was concerned about my "where" not being there.

It was over as soon as it had started. I was CCW'ing as I always do at home [ on person]. Motion detectors are great - the damn things sure are bright tho' when you want to hide in darkeness.

This is why I CCW even at home. I repeat -my experiences have been entering or leaving a premise. As it is said a handgun is to fight your way to a long gun - even one with a light.

Shrub got a good clipping too next morning...cut me up...wondered where the blood came from. I did not draw my CCW, I was doing the 'hug lawn and scoot back fast drill".

I gotta get softer concrete for the porch and softer lawn...maybe not so high while I am at it. Now that I think about it. [rubs arm]

One never knows the where or when of next encounter - CRSam

My training kicked in - Stop - Drop - Roll, seek cover. Or like *someone* around here says " stay low and watch your back".