20 gauge vs .50 muzzleloader

TMW89 · November 25, 2013, 08:49 AM

My dad and are deer hunters. he has a Traditions muzzleloader he uses and i have a H&R ultra slug rifled 20 gauge heavy barrel.
Yesterday he says, "You can prbably only shoot 150 yards with a good skip off the ground with that thing right?"
I said it would shoot just as far as his gun, which got a rise out of him lol.
So, what do you think? As far as hunting accuracy/range, which wins?

SteelChickenShooter · November 25, 2013, 09:30 AM

It's a toss up because I have had two of your guns. One was outstanding and you would be right. But the other didn't shoot worth a crud. In which case he would win.

Fishbed77 · November 25, 2013, 09:49 AM

A centerfire rifle wins.

g.willikers · November 25, 2013, 10:09 AM

Fur sure.
A muzzle loader, in the hands of an expert, is just as accurate as a modern rifle.
The real test for you guys is if either your shotgun had a rifled barrel with sabots, or your Dad's ML had a smooth one.
That would be an interesting challenge.

PetahW · November 25, 2013, 10:43 AM

.

Shoot both & find out for yourself.

Let the both of you shoot both guns, side-by-side @ the same range(s) at the same time or day for a true comparison.

.

Pahoo · November 25, 2013, 10:57 AM

Quote:

20 gauge vs .50 muzzleloader

This question has come up before and basically the way it was explained is to compare the aerodynamics of the projectiles. What your Dad is saying, is that the flight of your round nose slug will die, in good order and the M/L projectile will keep on flying straight. Now, the slug may travel just as far but with less accuracy and punch. By the way, you did not list what projectile he is using. One of the deadliest projectile I have seen, is a .45 sabot round. .....

Dad is right and;
Be Safe !!!

TMW89 · November 25, 2013, 02:01 PM

I should have mentioned mine is a rifled barrel. i shoot hornady sabots. about 1800fps

g.willikers · November 25, 2013, 04:53 PM

Well, if you are just trying to confuse us, we really don't need any help in that department.

ChasingWhitetail91 · November 25, 2013, 05:07 PM

I'm gonna side with the 20ga. slug gun, but don't sleep on the old man and his muzzleloader. I'd love to see the range report if you guys decide to take it to the field.

TMW89 · November 25, 2013, 05:59 PM

I'd like to test it, but Pops isnt one to go out and shoot for the fun of it. maybe i'll just have to take his muzzleloader to the range sometime. Although if mine turned out to be the victor, he'd never believe me lol

SteelChickenShooter · November 25, 2013, 08:15 PM

In my case, I had a shorter heavy barrel version that was dead nuts spot on the money at 100 yards distance. I reluctantly had to sell off firearms a few seasons ago after some health problems & bills. I came to replace that super shooter with a model that had the thumb hole stock and a little longer barrel. Shooting the same Hornady SST's that gun wouldn't hit squat. At the time, the idea was that the rifling was too shallow. It never performed as expected (better than the previous one). It was much worse. I gave it to a relative and told him to use full size Remington lead slugs and he would do well inside of 100 yards. And that did prove to be the case. The long distance slug gun of my dreams was found in the Savage model 220 shooting Hornady 20Ga SST's.
That baby will lay those puppies right in there winning your bet. Or should I say that puppy will lay those babies right in there- again winning your bet. Just not sure at this writing how your particular gun compares to the two I had or the one I'm using now.

TMW89 · November 26, 2013, 12:02 PM

Sounds like there is some consistency issues with H&R quality.
my gun is the standard stock, heavy, 24" barrel i believe. it shoots right on at 50 and inside a paper plate @100 yards. good enough for deer hunting. im sure i could be a better shot too.
both my gun and the lightweight synthetic 12 guage version i used to have are/were pretty accurate

Noreaster · November 26, 2013, 07:16 PM

I just had a similar conversation with a buddy who bought a 500 mag handi rifle. I would have gotten the slug gun instead.

500 mag 400 grain dual bond; 1725 fps & 2477 ft-lbs
12 gauge 375 grain dual bond; 1800 fps & 2697 ft-lbs (plus the ability to
hunt in shotgun only zone)
20 gauge 260 grain dual bond; 1800 fps & 1870 ft-lbs

Sight the 20 gauge in at 100 yds and it's .8 high at 50yds & .7 low at 175 yards.

Boomer58cal · November 27, 2013, 04:03 PM

Whichever one of you shoots best that day will win.

Boomer

big al hunter · November 29, 2013, 03:49 PM

I use both muzzle loader and shotgun in my favorite deer huntin' spot. For accuracy and distance my .50 cal and my 12 ga are close to the same. For the first shot it is a toss up. After that my TC Encore 12 ga wins on the speed of follow up shots. But the first one is the one that counts most

IIRC the ballistics for a 20 is close to the same as a 12 with similar sabot/bullet loads. I almost went with a 20, but ammo for them is scarce around here at times.

seansean1444 · November 29, 2013, 08:17 PM

they are probably both very close in accuracy but i would take the muzzleloader just for the ability to hunt the muzzleloader season and the shotgun season

TMW89 · November 30, 2013, 01:40 AM

Thats what my dad does. hasnt got his shotgun out in a few years.
i just get my bow back out for the rest of the year

darkgael · November 30, 2013, 07:57 AM

The 20 gauge is going to shoot a heavier slug 260 grains +/- at 1600 fps or more.
The .50 cal. MLer is going to shoot a 173 grain .490 round ball at 1600-1900 fps depending on the powder charge.
The lighter round ball will shed its velocity more quickly than the heavier slug.
The edge goes to the 20 gauge slug gun.
Pete

wild willy · November 30, 2013, 08:53 AM

Are you using saboted slugs in the shotgun and saboted bullets and black powder subsitutes in the muzzleloader?There is very little difference between the two.The slug gun will be faster to reload.The muzzleloader will usually be more accurate.You should be able to get much better than paper plate sized groups with a rifled barrel and saboted slugs.Noreaster which 20 gauge slug shoots that flat?

SteelChickenShooter · November 30, 2013, 09:49 AM

Yeah I picked up on that one too but didn't say anything. But now that it's been brought up, inside a paper plate @100 doesn't sound like a good shooter to me. My second shot hits the same hole and a couple more shots makes a clover leaf. Using a Leupold Ulti ( Ultimate ) Slam scope and 20ga SST's. However, I'm dialing in off a solid rest and I have a clearly marked target. I place a cross on white with 1/2 wide black tape that gives me outstanding reference marks to align myself with down range. In fairness to the OP, and so as not to insult his gun or ability, it could be he is just taking a quick aim at the plate and calling it good enough. My goal is 200 yards, so that is why a plate size group @ 100 wouldn't cut it for me. My very first H&R Ultra slug hunter did kiss the same hole at 100 yards using SST's. That is why I expected the second one to go out to 200 since it was a really nice setup having the thumbhole stock and longer barrel. That thing splattered holes haphazardly all around the target. What a shocking unexpected surprise. The bolt action Savage 220 sure fixed that. That second H&R I gave away to a relative. And yes it did pretty well shooting full size Remington slugs inside 100yards. And he did take a deer with it. It just wasn't getting me where I wanted to be.

TMW89 · November 30, 2013, 03:29 PM

I cant say you're wrong there, steel.
I could try a little harder at 100 than i have. granted im not the best shooter, but i'd like to think im competent enough with it. im sure it/i could shoot better. I dont take insult to any of that btw. input is always appreciated

SteelChickenShooter · November 30, 2013, 04:35 PM

When I used the word "shooter" in my previous post, I intended it to mean the hardware. A dead nuts accurate gun is a really good "shooter". I was not referring to the person pulling the trigger. I see how easy I can be unclear in my word choices. I place the cross hairs right smack dab on that cross I make with the black tape and squeeze the rounds off. Making it quite easy to minimize error when holding on target. That Savage is no ordinary shotgun. It's really more of a bolt action, highly accurate, 20ga "rifle". And it is one sure "shooter". So was my first H&R, but at half the distance. The muzzleloaders I actually shoot against during sight-in days, no way come close to my 20ga ( out at distance ). Some of them are very accurate out to 100, but at 150, 165 I easily leave them behind. My stressing "200" in all my posts is because we have a blind setup in a particular location and the well established deer trail intersections are 200 yards away.

Boomer58cal · November 30, 2013, 05:10 PM

Quote:

The 20 gaugeisgoing to shoot a heavier slug 260 grains +/- at 1600 fps or more. The .50 cal. MLer is going to shoot a 173 grain .490 round ball at 1600-1900 fps depending on the powder charge. The lighter round ball will shed its velocity more quickly than the heavier slug. The edge goes to the 20 gauge slug gun. Pete _______

In my area you can only muzzleloader hunt with bullets. No RB. A 375-425g bullet or Minie will easily out shoot a RB and we'll have far more retained energy at 200 yards.

My 32" 1in48 twist barreled .50 caplock shoots a 395g bullet @1700 fps/2535 ft-lbs with 150 FFF. Zerod at 125 yards it's 2.5" high at 50 yards, 2.1" high at 100 yards, -3.5" at 150 yards and -15.50" at 200. There is 990 ft-lbs retained energy at 200 yards.

My most accurate load for this rifle is 130 grains FFF @1600 fps.

I think this is actually a pretty good match up for the 20 gauge.

mehavey · November 30, 2013, 06:29 PM

Quote:

But now that it's been brought up, inside a paper plate @100 doesn't sound like a good shooter to me.
My second shot hits the same hole and a couple more shots makes a clover leaf.

Benched, I presume?

SteelChickenShooter · November 30, 2013, 06:58 PM

Yes benched. Well aimed and well supported at both ends to minimize error. And in good weather as well. Just want to be sure the hardware is dialed in. Prove the gun & ammo are well suited and solid then it's up to me in the field. I generally have some support when hunting be it a tree branch, window in a wooden box blind of some sort or shooting sticks. Seeing and knowing the hardware is quite capable makes me feel better before hunting season. I guess I strive for that one-hole-wonder from shooting steel chickens with a .22 rimfire.

November 25, 2013, 08:49 AM	#1
TMW89 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2013 Location: MI Posts: 185	20 gauge vs .50 muzzleloader My dad and are deer hunters. he has a Traditions muzzleloader he uses and i have a H&R ultra slug rifled 20 gauge heavy barrel. Yesterday he says, "You can prbably only shoot 150 yards with a good skip off the ground with that thing right?" I said it would shoot just as far as his gun, which got a rise out of him lol. So, what do you think? As far as hunting accuracy/range, which wins? __________________ Springfield XDM9C Savage Mark II F .22 H&R ultra slug hunter 20 ga 1942 Mosin Nagant "Natalia"

November 25, 2013, 10:09 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Fur sure. A muzzle loader, in the hands of an expert, is just as accurate as a modern rifle. The real test for you guys is if either your shotgun had a rifled barrel with sabots, or your Dad's ML had a smooth one. That would be an interesting challenge. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 25, 2013, 02:01 PM	#7
TMW89 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2013 Location: MI Posts: 185	I should have mentioned mine is a rifled barrel. i shoot hornady sabots. about 1800fps __________________ Springfield XDM9C Savage Mark II F .22 H&R ultra slug hunter 20 ga 1942 Mosin Nagant "Natalia"

November 25, 2013, 04:53 PM	#8
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Well, if you are just trying to confuse us, we really don't need any help in that department. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 25, 2013, 05:07 PM	#9
ChasingWhitetail91 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 336	I'm gonna side with the 20ga. slug gun, but don't sleep on the old man and his muzzleloader. I'd love to see the range report if you guys decide to take it to the field. __________________ Abraham Lincoln made all men free, Samuel Colt made them equal.

November 25, 2013, 09:30 AM	#2
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	It's a toss up because I have had two of your guns. One was outstanding and you would be right. But the other didn't shoot worth a crud. In which case he would win.

November 25, 2013, 09:49 AM	#3
Fishbed77 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2010 Posts: 4,862	A centerfire rifle wins.

November 25, 2013, 10:43 AM	#5
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. Shoot both & find out for yourself. Let the both of you shoot both guns, side-by-side @ the same range(s) at the same time or day for a true comparison. .

November 25, 2013, 05:59 PM	#10
TMW89 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2013 Location: MI Posts: 185	I'd like to test it, but Pops isnt one to go out and shoot for the fun of it. maybe i'll just have to take his muzzleloader to the range sometime. Although if mine turned out to be the victor, he'd never believe me lol __________________ Springfield XDM9C Savage Mark II F .22 H&R ultra slug hunter 20 ga 1942 Mosin Nagant "Natalia"

November 25, 2013, 08:15 PM	#11
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	In my case, I had a shorter heavy barrel version that was dead nuts spot on the money at 100 yards distance. I reluctantly had to sell off firearms a few seasons ago after some health problems & bills. I came to replace that super shooter with a model that had the thumb hole stock and a little longer barrel. Shooting the same Hornady SST's that gun wouldn't hit squat. At the time, the idea was that the rifling was too shallow. It never performed as expected (better than the previous one). It was much worse. I gave it to a relative and told him to use full size Remington lead slugs and he would do well inside of 100 yards. And that did prove to be the case. The long distance slug gun of my dreams was found in the Savage model 220 shooting Hornady 20Ga SST's. That baby will lay those puppies right in there winning your bet. Or should I say that puppy will lay those babies right in there- again winning your bet. Just not sure at this writing how your particular gun compares to the two I had or the one I'm using now.

November 26, 2013, 12:02 PM	#12
TMW89 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2013 Location: MI Posts: 185	Sounds like there is some consistency issues with H&R quality. my gun is the standard stock, heavy, 24" barrel i believe. it shoots right on at 50 and inside a paper plate @100 yards. good enough for deer hunting. im sure i could be a better shot too. both my gun and the lightweight synthetic 12 guage version i used to have are/were pretty accurate __________________ Springfield XDM9C Savage Mark II F .22 H&R ultra slug hunter 20 ga 1942 Mosin Nagant "Natalia"

November 26, 2013, 07:16 PM	#13
Noreaster Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: New England Posts: 1,449	I just had a similar conversation with a buddy who bought a 500 mag handi rifle. I would have gotten the slug gun instead. 500 mag 400 grain dual bond; 1725 fps & 2477 ft-lbs 12 gauge 375 grain dual bond; 1800 fps & 2697 ft-lbs (plus the ability to hunt in shotgun only zone) 20 gauge 260 grain dual bond; 1800 fps & 1870 ft-lbs Sight the 20 gauge in at 100 yds and it's .8 high at 50yds & .7 low at 175 yards.

November 27, 2013, 04:03 PM	#14
Boomer58cal Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2013 Location: closer than you think Posts: 967	Whichever one of you shoots best that day will win. Boomer __________________ The number one cause of death in the 20th century. 290,000,000 citizens were first disarmed and then murdered by their own governments. This number does not include those killed in war. We're from the government, we're here to help

November 29, 2013, 03:49 PM	#15
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	I use both muzzle loader and shotgun in my favorite deer huntin' spot. For accuracy and distance my .50 cal and my 12 ga are close to the same. For the first shot it is a toss up. After that my TC Encore 12 ga wins on the speed of follow up shots. But the first one is the one that counts most IIRC the ballistics for a 20 is close to the same as a 12 with similar sabot/bullet loads. I almost went with a 20, but ammo for them is scarce around here at times. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

November 29, 2013, 08:17 PM	#16
seansean1444 Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2010 Location: ithaca, new york (home of the ithaca shotguns!) Posts: 395	they are probably both very close in accuracy but i would take the muzzleloader just for the ability to hunt the muzzleloader season and the shotgun season

November 30, 2013, 01:40 AM	#17
TMW89 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2013 Location: MI Posts: 185	Thats what my dad does. hasnt got his shotgun out in a few years. i just get my bow back out for the rest of the year __________________ Springfield XDM9C Savage Mark II F .22 H&R ultra slug hunter 20 ga 1942 Mosin Nagant "Natalia"

November 30, 2013, 07:57 AM	#18
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Vs The 20 gauge is going to shoot a heavier slug 260 grains +/- at 1600 fps or more. The .50 cal. MLer is going to shoot a 173 grain .490 round ball at 1600-1900 fps depending on the powder charge. The lighter round ball will shed its velocity more quickly than the heavier slug. The edge goes to the 20 gauge slug gun. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

November 30, 2013, 08:53 AM	#19
wild willy Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2006 Posts: 404	Are you using saboted slugs in the shotgun and saboted bullets and black powder subsitutes in the muzzleloader?There is very little difference between the two.The slug gun will be faster to reload.The muzzleloader will usually be more accurate.You should be able to get much better than paper plate sized groups with a rifled barrel and saboted slugs.Noreaster which 20 gauge slug shoots that flat?

November 30, 2013, 09:49 AM	#20
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	Yeah I picked up on that one too but didn't say anything. But now that it's been brought up, inside a paper plate @100 doesn't sound like a good shooter to me. My second shot hits the same hole and a couple more shots makes a clover leaf. Using a Leupold Ulti ( Ultimate ) Slam scope and 20ga SST's. However, I'm dialing in off a solid rest and I have a clearly marked target. I place a cross on white with 1/2 wide black tape that gives me outstanding reference marks to align myself with down range. In fairness to the OP, and so as not to insult his gun or ability, it could be he is just taking a quick aim at the plate and calling it good enough. My goal is 200 yards, so that is why a plate size group @ 100 wouldn't cut it for me. My very first H&R Ultra slug hunter did kiss the same hole at 100 yards using SST's. That is why I expected the second one to go out to 200 since it was a really nice setup having the thumbhole stock and longer barrel. That thing splattered holes haphazardly all around the target. What a shocking unexpected surprise. The bolt action Savage 220 sure fixed that. That second H&R I gave away to a relative. And yes it did pretty well shooting full size Remington slugs inside 100yards. And he did take a deer with it. It just wasn't getting me where I wanted to be.

November 30, 2013, 03:29 PM	#21
TMW89 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2013 Location: MI Posts: 185	I cant say you're wrong there, steel. I could try a little harder at 100 than i have. granted im not the best shooter, but i'd like to think im competent enough with it. im sure it/i could shoot better. I dont take insult to any of that btw. input is always appreciated __________________ Springfield XDM9C Savage Mark II F .22 H&R ultra slug hunter 20 ga 1942 Mosin Nagant "Natalia"

November 30, 2013, 04:35 PM	#22
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	When I used the word "shooter" in my previous post, I intended it to mean the hardware. A dead nuts accurate gun is a really good "shooter". I was not referring to the person pulling the trigger. I see how easy I can be unclear in my word choices. I place the cross hairs right smack dab on that cross I make with the black tape and squeeze the rounds off. Making it quite easy to minimize error when holding on target. That Savage is no ordinary shotgun. It's really more of a bolt action, highly accurate, 20ga "rifle". And it is one sure "shooter". So was my first H&R, but at half the distance. The muzzleloaders I actually shoot against during sight-in days, no way come close to my 20ga ( out at distance ). Some of them are very accurate out to 100, but at 150, 165 I easily leave them behind. My stressing "200" in all my posts is because we have a blind setup in a particular location and the well established deer trail intersections are 200 yards away.

November 30, 2013, 06:58 PM	#25
SteelChickenShooter Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Posts: 863	Yes benched. Well aimed and well supported at both ends to minimize error. And in good weather as well. Just want to be sure the hardware is dialed in. Prove the gun & ammo are well suited and solid then it's up to me in the field. I generally have some support when hunting be it a tree branch, window in a wooden box blind of some sort or shooting sticks. Seeing and knowing the hardware is quite capable makes me feel better before hunting season. I guess I strive for that one-hole-wonder from shooting steel chickens with a .22 rimfire.