Legality of powder storage-Do you know your local laws?

Poodleshooter · December 4, 2002, 12:51 PM

I was somewhat surprised to learn that my nearby town's fire codes prohibit the possession of black powder in ANY AMOUNT! They also allegedly prohibit any smokeless powder in residences.
This was told to me by the former fire marshall.
Supposedly my county allows limits similar to those of the NFPA, but limits blackpowder to 5#. I guess reenactors with cannons are SOL? This seems rather ridiculous, as there were dozens of local revolutionary war reenactors attending a city event a few weekends back,complete with artillery.
So, do you know what YOUR local regulations are? If so, how did you find out? Are they stricter than the NFPA rules?
I really wish that this stuff was codified online.

Steve Smith · December 4, 2002, 12:54 PM

Actually, I do. I'd suggest you ask for your Marshall's references...they can be wrong, too.

C.R.Sam · December 4, 2002, 01:27 PM

Steve right...
Sometimes the fire marshal doesn't have the straight scoop.

Good idea to do your own research and get copies to have on hand when questioned or accused.

Sam

Cheapo · December 4, 2002, 01:56 PM

I just go with the Uniform Fire Code. But I last looked it up in some SAAMI literature almost 20 years ago. Anyone know if the shift to IBC (from UBC) has been paralleled by a shift to an Internaitonal Fire Code, too? By state, county and city, you may be on different "standards", then you may also have local law amendments.

Step 1: Call you building department & find out which code you're on.

In general, I remember that up to 20 lbs of smokeless (5 lbs max Black?) in 1-lb containers are okay, then you need to have a vented fire-resistant cabinet. 1 inch of wood was okay per 1980s UFC.

It required a bigger & more fire-resistant but still vented cabinet at 20.001 to 100 lbs of smokeless, then started getting complicated above that. Separate storage units, minimum spacing distances, etc.

I just keep it below 20 lbs. Never bothered to check what effect the 2-lb, 4-lb and 8-lb containers had on the rules. Just keep 'em in original packaging.

julianmb · December 4, 2002, 06:37 PM

you guys have it good! here in spain you can only possess 1kg (2.2lbs!) of powder in total at a time, which is a bit dificult if you want to load 3 or 4 rifle calibres and pistol too, not to mention the fact that you can only have 200 loaded rounds in your possession (none of which can be for target shooting weapons, only for hunting), plus 200 primers and 200 primed but not loaded cases (and this is including any 22lr you may have). To buy powder legally you must have an approved press, take a 1-2 day course and then they will give you permission to load FOR THE CALIBRES THAT YOU OWN.

And then begins the saga of actually getting your hands on the powder: it must be delivered (remembering max 1kg) to the police station in your area which handles firearms with an explosive transport vehicle, which unfortunatley cannot bring your (only 200!) primers because they have to travel seperately!

Result is:

No-one stocks powder or primers.
Everyone goes to France, Portugal or Andorra where they are on free sale and drives across the border with it.

All this to clamp down on terrorism, which of course is a good thing if any of this was relevant to terrorism.

If anyone wants to know more or needs more info, pplease feel free to email me [email protected]

regards from sunny spain!

KP95DAO · December 4, 2002, 08:25 PM

Who gives a flying flip what the regs are? I sure don't.

blades67 · December 4, 2002, 10:21 PM

That's a responsible attitude.

labgrade · December 4, 2002, 11:33 PM

blades,

Actually I can relate. Regs many times are thought up by idiots who haven't the slightest clue regards anything to do with said regs. And, perhaps haven't any authority to do so anyway.

If one is responsible in their use/possession of a thing, what business has any "official" making a rule stating otherwise?

We could expound on this in Legal & Political ....

Back to the thread.

Do check the actual regs

& not some word of mouth. Many a times those who should know don't & some will bias their answer with their own personal beliefs of what you should be allowed.

Dave P · December 5, 2002, 08:13 AM

"an explosive transport vehicle"

Didn't Wylie Coyote have one of these?

Julian - maybe you should consider golf (shudder) as an alternate hobby! Those rules suck big time :barf: :barf:

Steve Smith · December 5, 2002, 10:02 AM

KP95DAO, you will if you ever have a house fire, regardless of whether the powder had anything to do with it. Imagine still owing for your house and not having one, all becuase your insurance agent dropped you since you were not following flammable material regulations.

Poodleshooter · December 5, 2002, 12:44 PM

Here's the ridiculous part: Virginia's fire code allows for 15# of powder. That's a little low, but still manageable. Here's the catch- only 1,000 primers are allowed at one time [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]??? I see people buying 5k primers at VA shows all the time. Are we supposed to reload for only 1 type of weapon at a time?? I certainly tend to doubt that the thousands of reloaders in VA keep only 1k of primers in their houses! That's only the state regs-the state code grants communities the right to create more stringent regulations! It really pisses me off that some idiot can make these rules w/o ever consulting anyone in the practice, but I suppose that's par for the course.

Warning to those out there who think that the NFPA found in the reloading books is the end all of regulations: It isn't!
As for checking my local regs- I have no idea where to find them, and asking the fire marshall is like a big flashing sign reading "Come arrest me for building violations!"

Steve Smith · December 5, 2002, 01:05 PM

Call him and ask where you can find the regulations for flamable product storage in a domicile. Sound like you know what you're talking about and you'll get a good answer without suspicion.

CHAINSAW · December 5, 2002, 11:50 PM

With due respect to all the learned posters on this thread, do you honestly believe that you will be given the benefit of the doubt for compliance of these rules and regulations so numerous that most officials can not distinguish what is written into the code in most jurisdictions I have dealt with on many different levels? All I have run into for the most part is people telling me what I can't do.

Poodleshooter, I think you have a better chance of picking up Pixie Sticks with your butt cheeks than actually determining what your actual code really is.
Regards----------Chainsaw

KP95DAO · December 6, 2002, 01:12 AM

Steve Smith,

I just know that you have a actual occurrence where your imagined scenario occured. And furthermore that you are now going to be so kind to share that with us. I am looking forward to that. Thank you in advance.

Cheapo · December 6, 2002, 03:28 AM

Steve doesn't have to answer that. I can. Our town's newbie code inspection chick gave some straightforward (though unwelcome) and honest answers about egress windows during the permitting process on other parts of my house.

All ya gotta do is ask about the fire code. Which one is adopted at your state/county/city level (our codes are statewide with amendments - 2000 or 2001-donremember the cycle years) UBC and electical and fire, with statewide amendments and occasional county and city amendments on top of that.

Generic questions about which version of flammible materials storage in residences won't arouse much suspicion at all.

"Why do you want to know?"

"My gas can for the lawnmower is pretty big. Maybe too big. Add the boat's 100-octane cans and the motorcycle...see what I mean?"

"Don't worry, you can have up to X gasoline in containers so&so big."

"Thanks. Where can I look it up myself? I want to be sure about this. Any local amendments to the fire code?"

There's nothing like disinformational honesty for getting the information you need.

Number 6 · December 6, 2002, 11:22 AM

may I suggest using your state site? As in, log onto your state law site (try findlaw.com also) and run "propellant" and "gunpowder" as search terms in your state code.

Seems like the obvious place to start, anyway.

Poodleshooter · December 6, 2002, 02:30 PM

Number 6:
I already referenced the information from my state code, which I did find in state code. That is why I commented on how amusing the state regulations were, as so many people I see at VA gunshows are so obviously breaking them! The problem is that the local town code is even more restrictive-possibly including the complete prohibition of powder and primers.

cheygriz · December 7, 2002, 03:08 AM

Unfortunately, if you violate ANY section of the fire code, for any jurisdiction that you reside in, you MAY void your fire insurance.

Even if you comply with international, national and state codes, if there's some quirky regulation in your municipal code, your insurance carrier may use it to void your policy. Take a hard look at an out building for powder, primer and ammo storage. Just be sure that the out building doesn't get real hot in the summer.

WESHOOT2 · December 7, 2002, 09:11 AM

Sssshhhhhh.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha!

(If my place ever goes up you'll ALL know.)

December 4, 2002, 12:51 PM	#1
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Legality of powder storage-Do you know your local laws? I was somewhat surprised to learn that my nearby town's fire codes prohibit the possession of black powder in ANY AMOUNT! They also allegedly prohibit any smokeless powder in residences. This was told to me by the former fire marshall. Supposedly my county allows limits similar to those of the NFPA, but limits blackpowder to 5#. I guess reenactors with cannons are SOL? This seems rather ridiculous, as there were dozens of local revolutionary war reenactors attending a city event a few weekends back,complete with artillery. So, do you know what YOUR local regulations are? If so, how did you find out? Are they stricter than the NFPA rules? I really wish that this stuff was codified online.

December 4, 2002, 12:54 PM	#2
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Actually, I do. I'd suggest you ask for your Marshall's references...they can be wrong, too. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

December 4, 2002, 01:56 PM	#4
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	I just go with the Uniform Fire Code. But I last looked it up in some SAAMI literature almost 20 years ago. Anyone know if the shift to IBC (from UBC) has been paralleled by a shift to an Internaitonal Fire Code, too? By state, county and city, you may be on different "standards", then you may also have local law amendments. Step 1: Call you building department & find out which code you're on. In general, I remember that up to 20 lbs of smokeless (5 lbs max Black?) in 1-lb containers are okay, then you need to have a vented fire-resistant cabinet. 1 inch of wood was okay per 1980s UFC. It required a bigger & more fire-resistant but still vented cabinet at 20.001 to 100 lbs of smokeless, then started getting complicated above that. Separate storage units, minimum spacing distances, etc. I just keep it below 20 lbs. Never bothered to check what effect the 2-lb, 4-lb and 8-lb containers had on the rules. Just keep 'em in original packaging. __________________ Let us never forget that the only legitimate source of government power is the citizens. If WE cannot exercise a certain power, we cannot grant it to the state.

December 4, 2002, 10:21 PM	#7
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	That's a responsible attitude. __________________ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

December 5, 2002, 10:02 AM	#10
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	KP95DAO, you will if you ever have a house fire, regardless of whether the powder had anything to do with it. Imagine still owing for your house and not having one, all becuase your insurance agent dropped you since you were not following flammable material regulations. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

December 4, 2002, 01:27 PM	#3
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Steve right... Sometimes the fire marshal doesn't have the straight scoop. Good idea to do your own research and get copies to have on hand when questioned or accused. Sam

December 4, 2002, 06:37 PM	#5
julianmb Junior Member Join Date: November 27, 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 2	you guys have it good! here in spain you can only possess 1kg (2.2lbs!) of powder in total at a time, which is a bit dificult if you want to load 3 or 4 rifle calibres and pistol too, not to mention the fact that you can only have 200 loaded rounds in your possession (none of which can be for target shooting weapons, only for hunting), plus 200 primers and 200 primed but not loaded cases (and this is including any 22lr you may have). To buy powder legally you must have an approved press, take a 1-2 day course and then they will give you permission to load FOR THE CALIBRES THAT YOU OWN. And then begins the saga of actually getting your hands on the powder: it must be delivered (remembering max 1kg) to the police station in your area which handles firearms with an explosive transport vehicle, which unfortunatley cannot bring your (only 200!) primers because they have to travel seperately! Result is: No-one stocks powder or primers. Everyone goes to France, Portugal or Andorra where they are on free sale and drives across the border with it. All this to clamp down on terrorism, which of course is a good thing if any of this was relevant to terrorism. If anyone wants to know more or needs more info, pplease feel free to email me [email protected] regards from sunny spain!

December 4, 2002, 08:25 PM	#6
KP95DAO Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 699	Who gives a flying flip what the regs are? I sure don't.

December 4, 2002, 11:33 PM	#8
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	blades, Actually I can relate. Regs many times are thought up by idiots who haven't the slightest clue regards anything to do with said regs. And, perhaps haven't any authority to do so anyway. If one is responsible in their use/possession of a thing, what business has any "official" making a rule stating otherwise? We could expound on this in Legal & Political .... Back to the thread. Do check the actual regs & not some word of mouth. Many a times those who should know don't & some will bias their answer with their own personal beliefs of what you should be allowed.

December 5, 2002, 08:13 AM	#9
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	"an explosive transport vehicle" Didn't Wylie Coyote have one of these? Julian - maybe you should consider golf (shudder) as an alternate hobby! Those rules suck big time :barf: :barf:

December 5, 2002, 12:44 PM	#11
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Here's the ridiculous part: Virginia's fire code allows for 15# of powder. That's a little low, but still manageable. Here's the catch- only 1,000 primers are allowed at one time [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]??? I see people buying 5k primers at VA shows all the time. Are we supposed to reload for only 1 type of weapon at a time?? I certainly tend to doubt that the thousands of reloaders in VA keep only 1k of primers in their houses! That's only the state regs-the state code grants communities the right to create more stringent regulations! It really pisses me off that some idiot can make these rules w/o ever consulting anyone in the practice, but I suppose that's par for the course. Warning to those out there who think that the NFPA found in the reloading books is the end all of regulations: It isn't! As for checking my local regs- I have no idea where to find them, and asking the fire marshall is like a big flashing sign reading "Come arrest me for building violations!"

December 5, 2002, 01:05 PM	#12
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Call him and ask where you can find the regulations for flamable product storage in a domicile. Sound like you know what you're talking about and you'll get a good answer without suspicion. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

December 5, 2002, 11:50 PM	#13
CHAINSAW Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 1999 Posts: 201	With due respect to all the learned posters on this thread, do you honestly believe that you will be given the benefit of the doubt for compliance of these rules and regulations so numerous that most officials can not distinguish what is written into the code in most jurisdictions I have dealt with on many different levels? All I have run into for the most part is people telling me what I can't do. Poodleshooter, I think you have a better chance of picking up Pixie Sticks with your butt cheeks than actually determining what your actual code really is. Regards----------Chainsaw

December 6, 2002, 01:12 AM	#14
KP95DAO Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 699	Imagine. Wasn't that a Beetle song? Steve Smith, I just know that you have a actual occurrence where your imagined scenario occured. And furthermore that you are now going to be so kind to share that with us. I am looking forward to that. Thank you in advance.

December 6, 2002, 03:28 AM	#15
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Steve doesn't have to answer that. I can. Our town's newbie code inspection chick gave some straightforward (though unwelcome) and honest answers about egress windows during the permitting process on other parts of my house. All ya gotta do is ask about the fire code. Which one is adopted at your state/county/city level (our codes are statewide with amendments - 2000 or 2001-donremember the cycle years) UBC and electical and fire, with statewide amendments and occasional county and city amendments on top of that. Generic questions about which version of flammible materials storage in residences won't arouse much suspicion at all. "Why do you want to know?" "My gas can for the lawnmower is pretty big. Maybe too big. Add the boat's 100-octane cans and the motorcycle...see what I mean?" "Don't worry, you can have up to X gasoline in containers so&so big." "Thanks. Where can I look it up myself? I want to be sure about this. Any local amendments to the fire code?" There's nothing like disinformational honesty for getting the information you need. __________________ Let us never forget that the only legitimate source of government power is the citizens. If WE cannot exercise a certain power, we cannot grant it to the state.

December 6, 2002, 11:22 AM	#16
Number 6 Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2002 Posts: 919	Since everyone here obviously has internet access, may I suggest using your state site? As in, log onto your state law site (try findlaw.com also) and run "propellant" and "gunpowder" as search terms in your state code. Seems like the obvious place to start, anyway.

December 6, 2002, 02:30 PM	#17
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Number 6: I already referenced the information from my state code, which I did find in state code. That is why I commented on how amusing the state regulations were, as so many people I see at VA gunshows are so obviously breaking them! The problem is that the local town code is even more restrictive-possibly including the complete prohibition of powder and primers.

December 7, 2002, 03:08 AM	#18
cheygriz Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2002 Location: high up in the rockies Posts: 2,289	Unfortunately, if you violate ANY section of the fire code, for any jurisdiction that you reside in, you MAY void your fire insurance. Even if you comply with international, national and state codes, if there's some quirky regulation in your municipal code, your insurance carrier may use it to void your policy. Take a hard look at an out building for powder, primer and ammo storage. Just be sure that the out building doesn't get real hot in the summer. __________________ If you think a mighty military force is expensive, wait 'til you see what a weak one costs.

December 7, 2002, 09:11 AM	#19
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Sssshhhhhh. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha! (If my place ever goes up you'll ALL know.) __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"