bolt action from scratch?.. looking for advice

jason41987 · April 24, 2012, 02:16 PM

hey everyone.. for a project of mine.. i thought about machining a bolt action from scratch... ive seen it done numerous times before.. anyway, im looking to go with possibly a mauser, 1903, or enfield type action.. one of the old military actions rather than the new ones... heck, if i was confident a krag-jorgensen action could be strong enough, quick enough on the reload, and be able to handle modern .308, id consider that route since the krags were very quick and smooth...

my end goal is a .308 caliber scout type rifle, so id like something that can quickly reload, but without the use of a detachable magazine... also, it would have to be a rifle with available blueprints (of course)...

so.. of the rifles i mentioned, which ones would make the best project, have the best end result, and matches the criteria?...

James K · April 24, 2012, 05:01 PM

If you like the Krag action, you might copy the Norwegian Krag, which has dual locking lugs, since the bolt rib bears. The problem is that the lugs are asymmetric, which is not conducive to the best accuracy. Other than that the Model 98 Mauser is hard to beat, but the Remington 700 action would be easiest to make, being basically a piece of tubular steel.

Let us know what you pick and how you are getting along.

Jim

jason41987 · April 24, 2012, 05:13 PM

well the mauser 98 is all fine and dandy... but i cant seem to find blueprints for it anywhere... i believe ive found some remington 700 prints but hard to say if theyre backwards engineered or factory... as for the krag, would the norwegian model be as smooth and fast as the american rifle?.. and how accurate, and durable would that be?

mete · April 24, 2012, 05:13 PM

I remember on another forum a fellow who made a rifle M98 type .He used 4340 steel though 4140 will work fine .He took top honors in his country in a competition with it !!! It can be done.

Scorch · April 24, 2012, 05:24 PM

If you choose to make a Mauser or Remington style action, you will have to broach the bolt ways, somewhat troublesome unless you have a broaching machine handy. Most people who are not set up with a broaching machine choose a "fat bolt" design (a la Weatherby Mark V or S&W I-bolt).

jason41987 · April 24, 2012, 05:52 PM

as for broaching or not.. that would have to depend.. im going more for a fast/smooth action than accuracy.. in fact, im only targeting 1MOA, anything better than that... fantastic, but as long as it achieves atleast 1 MOA ill be happy... since itll have a short barrel, no scope i wont be doing any 600+ shooting... im going to shoot mostly for durability, reliability, and speed

jason41987 · April 24, 2012, 06:17 PM

hmm.. im trying to find more information on broaching the action, what it does, why people do it, and the pros and cons of doing that vs what you call a fat bolt style.. but not finding much with those search terms

kraigwy · April 24, 2012, 11:35 PM

As to broaching:

When you have to cut slots (where the locking lugs on the bolt slide up and down the action for example) you use a broaching machine. Its like a course file, the width of the teeth the size of the slots you want to cut.

The same method you use to cut key way slots in a cylinder.

You make light cuts, and the broacher is moved deeper into the slot by a means of shims. Keep adding shims until the broacher cuts the slot the depth you want.

Take the bolt out of any rifle action and you can easily see the different slots and such you have to cut inside the bolt.

It's time consuming to say the least.

You could do the same process if you have a shaper. Which is a reciprocating arm with a lathe cutter that does the cutting. Not many machine shops use shapers any more.

You start this project you'll see why most manufactors have gone to investment casting.

Jim Watson · April 25, 2012, 12:12 AM

I doubt a mass production broach operates that way.
I have seen pictures of factory broaches several feet long with many cutters, each a little larger than the one before. One pass through a starter hole cuts to final shape and dimension. Pedersoli rifles that way. So did Smith & Wesson in the good old days. Single cutter rifling was too slow and buttoning an asymmetric forging does not give uniform groove depth. Of course they did a lot of lapping when done to get rid of the broach marks.

Mr Garand not only designed autoloading rifles to be shot, he designed them to be manufactured, based on his background at Browne and Sharpe. The Hot New Thing in 1930s manufacturing was the multiple step broach as an improvement over lathes, mills, and shapers. So he designed his rifle to make maximum use of broaching, minimum single point cutters.

HiBC · April 25, 2012, 04:52 AM

I used to run a big old 1952 American Broach machine.I have a great appreciation for the broach.It is a fine,efficient way to produce parts.
However,I think the actions mentioned were first forged.There is a limitation with a broach.The gullet of each tooth must have enough room to carry the chip for the entire length of cut.If you run out of room for the chip,the broach will break.Might be you could get something like a woodruff cutter in to pre-machine some of the mortice in the open part of the receiver to shorten up the cut.

A broach to do that job might be 3 ft long,and round to pilot a round hole through.It would cut both races at the same time,and have a shape like the bolt with locking lugs.If you could solve the chip clearance problem,on a broach machine,you would raise the ram(about 8 in dia hydraulic),load your part in a fixture on the table,feed the pilot end of the broach through the part,and lock it into a chuck on the ram,turn on the coolant,and lower the ram.In seconds,the cut is done.

With the fat bolt designs,its not a problem,the length of cut is short.The AR type receiver extension is a perfect broach part,no problem.

kraigwy is right,the old single point shaper might be successful,as the chip can escape the cut.The rigidity of the bar holding the bit may be an issue,as you are working in a roughly .700 dia hole.

Nesika Bay says no problem,stands it up and wire edm s it.Great way to build,you can use pre hardened steel,no warp.If you had enough z travel,a sinker edm would be fine.

A steel you might consider if you can scrounge some,17-4 PH.It is a precipitant hardening stainless.Its not bad to machine if you have a good rigid machine.What is cool about it(get real info on heat treating to spec) but you bake it at 900 f or so and it gets up into 40 something rockwell "C",its good,strong stuff.No warp at 900.No quench.

I got involved in a Reminton Hepburn cast kit project,I made up fixtures to hold and guide common keyway broaches to finish cut the mortices through the receiver.Worked great!

There are crossover type actions,bolt actions that borrow some of the tech from the AR,might be relatively practical to make

James K · April 25, 2012, 11:04 AM

Please don't misunderstand, but I wonder if Jason is really set up to make a rifle action from scratch if he is not familiar with standard machining techniques. The equipment to do that kind of work is not cheap and to spend tens of thousands of dollars on the machines and tooling to make one rifle might be fun and a challenge, but hardly cost effective.

Jim

kraigwy · April 25, 2012, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Please don't misunderstand, but I wonder if Jason is really set up to make a rifle action from scratch if he is not familiar with standard machining techniques.

I'll agree with that, and not just the broaching topic.

It would be best just to find an action, true it up, and go from there. I've put together a lot of rifles, made some dern nice target rifles but I wouldn't attempt building an action.

jason41987 · April 25, 2012, 11:52 AM

i know what broaching is, and how its done, my question what what benefits does this have vs not broaching? to determine which would be the best solution for the purpose of the rifle

jason41987 · April 25, 2012, 12:38 PM

hmm.. found some blueprints for the mauser action... had an idea of using steel rod with a square groove cut in it to fit the broach... and have different pieces, with the groove cut to different depths to broach the receiver...

on the other end of the steel rod i could drill and tap it to fit lugs thatll ride in the raceway on one side to help align the broach as it cuts the raceways in the other side... and i guess this steel rod tool for holding the broach would be something to keep, as a tool to simplify broaching other receivers should i decide to make more for myself (i doubt i will though)... but seems for the front-locking actions broaching would be the way to go... and i shouldnt make my raceways TOO tight.. otherwise a little dirt or debris could cause the bolt to "stick" or be rough to operate...

as for these mauser blueprints, i need to recreate these in 3D, and shorten the receiver and the bolt for a "short action" in .308.. since ive decided on .308 winchester for this project there would be no point in building a full-length action as it would just be unused weight

jason41987 · April 25, 2012, 12:40 PM

it seems though that i would prefer a small ring mauser... large rings are stronger, better for magnum calibers, and other larger recoiling calibers, but the rifle im looking into is a .308, so i dont need the extra weight or security, so i think i would rather have a small ring mauser to save the weight, its already a bit shorter of an action... so i think for my goals, i would benefit more with a small ring vs a large

jason41987 · April 25, 2012, 01:46 PM

thought this machining from scratch could be quite the pain in the rear... so anyone familiar with these parker-hale M98 receiver castings? these should have the raceways there... needing to be cleaned up, filed to proper specifications, threads cut, etc.. seems like this might be an easier start than machining from scratch, what do you think?

mapsjanhere · April 26, 2012, 07:46 AM

While the 308 is not a magnum caliber it is a high pressure round, and typically not recommended for small ring Mausers.

jason41987 · April 26, 2012, 11:56 AM

yeah.. thats true... whats the generally recommended pressure limit for the small ring mauser? anyone know?

hhunter318 · April 26, 2012, 12:14 PM

I don't know if anyone mentioned it earlier, but have you considered wire edm for the bolt raceways? Much more precise than broaching. Or you could just eliminate the bolt raceways altogether and consider a fat bolt design like T/C and Weatherby use on some of their rifles. I have some CAD files where I designed some actions. I think they are larger than what you're looking to create though.

James K · April 26, 2012, 06:51 PM

Fat bolt designs are usually multi-lug, which would IMHO involve even more complex breech work than necessary for the Mauser 98 action. Even if the bolt locks into the barrel or barrel extension, I assume you (Jason) will want to produce a shootable product, not just an action, so if your bolt locks into the barrel, you will have to design and make the barrel breech as well.

The small ring Mausers were made for cartridges in the 40-45k psi range. They have been used for rounds exceeding that, but usually are not recommended for rounds in the 60k range like the .308. Of course, that is assuming an old action with early 1890's metallurgy, so it would not apply to a new action made from modern steel alloy. Still, the 98 action has features, such as the way it handles gas escape, that the early actions don't have, and an exact copy wouldn't either.

I am not very familiar with EDM, though I know generally how it works. But it seems to me to be a fairly expensive setup.

Jim

Jim Watson · April 27, 2012, 08:56 AM

I would think a Kar98a - a '98 design but with small ring - would be suitable if made out of modern steel like 4140. Also, Frank DeHaas pointed out that the Husqvarna actions advertised as modernized Mausers were modernized '96s, not a '98 pattern.

jason41987 · April 27, 2012, 01:21 PM

yeah.. i was listening to someone else mention the small ring 98s as well.. that does seem like the best choice for an action to save weight while still safely being able to manage the pressure of .308, so i really like that idea for an action...

i heard its possible, though much, much more time consuming to use a jig with progressively finer files to file the raceways into the action... has anyone seen someone do this before?... it would take quite a while though

anyway though.. its strange someone mentioned EDM machining... i was actually debating whether or not i should get into that as a replacement to mechanical machining for metal parts... ive been thinking about setting up a small three or four axis machine

animal · April 27, 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

i heard its possible, though much, much more time consuming to use a jig with progressively finer files to file the raceways into the action... has anyone seen someone do this before?... it would take quite a while though

You’re still young. Give it a try ...

Kidding, kidding ... well, mostly.
Seriously though, specialty tools are time savers, or "get into places easier" thingies. Check out some of the improvised munitions our military has come across over the years. Some of it is truly amazing ... what someone can do with hand tools and a LOT of time.

brickeyee · April 27, 2012, 02:22 PM

Quote:

my question what what benefits does this have vs not broaching?

If you want the raceways you need to cut them.

They are cut by broaching since there is not actually any other practical way to cut long grooves on the inside of a cylinder the length of the cylinder.

you might be able to figure out a way to EDM them, but that s likely to be just as hard to do on a hobby budget as broaching.

And the 'cut and advance' method described earlier is what a shaper does.

They are rarely used outside of small hobby use.

A cut rifling machine is similar in concept.

jason41987 · April 27, 2012, 08:45 PM

i guess what i was really trying to ask about broaching vs "fat bolt".. is almost every bolt action ive seen the internals for so far have been broached.. so when i think of a bolt action receiver, i automatically imagine broached raceways... so im looking for a description, or photos of what exactly the "fat bolt" style is?

April 24, 2012, 02:16 PM	#1
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	bolt action from scratch?.. looking for advice hey everyone.. for a project of mine.. i thought about machining a bolt action from scratch... ive seen it done numerous times before.. anyway, im looking to go with possibly a mauser, 1903, or enfield type action.. one of the old military actions rather than the new ones... heck, if i was confident a krag-jorgensen action could be strong enough, quick enough on the reload, and be able to handle modern .308, id consider that route since the krags were very quick and smooth... my end goal is a .308 caliber scout type rifle, so id like something that can quickly reload, but without the use of a detachable magazine... also, it would have to be a rifle with available blueprints (of course)... so.. of the rifles i mentioned, which ones would make the best project, have the best end result, and matches the criteria?...

April 24, 2012, 05:13 PM	#4
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	I remember on another forum a fellow who made a rifle M98 type .He used 4340 steel though 4140 will work fine .He took top honors in his country in a competition with it !!! It can be done. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

April 24, 2012, 05:24 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	If you choose to make a Mauser or Remington style action, you will have to broach the bolt ways, somewhat troublesome unless you have a broaching machine handy. Most people who are not set up with a broaching machine choose a "fat bolt" design (a la Weatherby Mark V or S&W I-bolt). __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

April 24, 2012, 05:52 PM	#6
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	as for broaching or not.. that would have to depend.. im going more for a fast/smooth action than accuracy.. in fact, im only targeting 1MOA, anything better than that... fantastic, but as long as it achieves atleast 1 MOA ill be happy... since itll have a short barrel, no scope i wont be doing any 600+ shooting... im going to shoot mostly for durability, reliability, and speed Last edited by jason41987; April 24, 2012 at 06:26 PM.

April 24, 2012, 11:35 PM	#8
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	As to broaching: When you have to cut slots (where the locking lugs on the bolt slide up and down the action for example) you use a broaching machine. Its like a course file, the width of the teeth the size of the slots you want to cut. The same method you use to cut key way slots in a cylinder. You make light cuts, and the broacher is moved deeper into the slot by a means of shims. Keep adding shims until the broacher cuts the slot the depth you want. Take the bolt out of any rifle action and you can easily see the different slots and such you have to cut inside the bolt. It's time consuming to say the least. You could do the same process if you have a shaper. Which is a reciprocating arm with a lathe cutter that does the cutting. Not many machine shops use shapers any more. You start this project you'll see why most manufactors have gone to investment casting. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

April 24, 2012, 05:01 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If you like the Krag action, you might copy the Norwegian Krag, which has dual locking lugs, since the bolt rib bears. The problem is that the lugs are asymmetric, which is not conducive to the best accuracy. Other than that the Model 98 Mauser is hard to beat, but the Remington 700 action would be easiest to make, being basically a piece of tubular steel. Let us know what you pick and how you are getting along. Jim

April 24, 2012, 06:17 PM	#7
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	hmm.. im trying to find more information on broaching the action, what it does, why people do it, and the pros and cons of doing that vs what you call a fat bolt style.. but not finding much with those search terms

April 25, 2012, 12:12 AM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I doubt a mass production broach operates that way. I have seen pictures of factory broaches several feet long with many cutters, each a little larger than the one before. One pass through a starter hole cuts to final shape and dimension. Pedersoli rifles that way. So did Smith & Wesson in the good old days. Single cutter rifling was too slow and buttoning an asymmetric forging does not give uniform groove depth. Of course they did a lot of lapping when done to get rid of the broach marks. Mr Garand not only designed autoloading rifles to be shot, he designed them to be manufactured, based on his background at Browne and Sharpe. The Hot New Thing in 1930s manufacturing was the multiple step broach as an improvement over lathes, mills, and shapers. So he designed his rifle to make maximum use of broaching, minimum single point cutters.

April 25, 2012, 04:52 AM	#10
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	I used to run a big old 1952 American Broach machine.I have a great appreciation for the broach.It is a fine,efficient way to produce parts. However,I think the actions mentioned were first forged.There is a limitation with a broach.The gullet of each tooth must have enough room to carry the chip for the entire length of cut.If you run out of room for the chip,the broach will break.Might be you could get something like a woodruff cutter in to pre-machine some of the mortice in the open part of the receiver to shorten up the cut. A broach to do that job might be 3 ft long,and round to pilot a round hole through.It would cut both races at the same time,and have a shape like the bolt with locking lugs.If you could solve the chip clearance problem,on a broach machine,you would raise the ram(about 8 in dia hydraulic),load your part in a fixture on the table,feed the pilot end of the broach through the part,and lock it into a chuck on the ram,turn on the coolant,and lower the ram.In seconds,the cut is done. With the fat bolt designs,its not a problem,the length of cut is short.The AR type receiver extension is a perfect broach part,no problem. kraigwy is right,the old single point shaper might be successful,as the chip can escape the cut.The rigidity of the bar holding the bit may be an issue,as you are working in a roughly .700 dia hole. Nesika Bay says no problem,stands it up and wire edm s it.Great way to build,you can use pre hardened steel,no warp.If you had enough z travel,a sinker edm would be fine. A steel you might consider if you can scrounge some,17-4 PH.It is a precipitant hardening stainless.Its not bad to machine if you have a good rigid machine.What is cool about it(get real info on heat treating to spec) but you bake it at 900 f or so and it gets up into 40 something rockwell "C",its good,strong stuff.No warp at 900.No quench. I got involved in a Reminton Hepburn cast kit project,I made up fixtures to hold and guide common keyway broaches to finish cut the mortices through the receiver.Worked great! There are crossover type actions,bolt actions that borrow some of the tech from the AR,might be relatively practical to make Last edited by HiBC; April 25, 2012 at 05:10 AM.

April 25, 2012, 11:04 AM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Please don't misunderstand, but I wonder if Jason is really set up to make a rifle action from scratch if he is not familiar with standard machining techniques. The equipment to do that kind of work is not cheap and to spend tens of thousands of dollars on the machines and tooling to make one rifle might be fun and a challenge, but hardly cost effective. Jim

April 25, 2012, 11:52 AM	#13
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	i know what broaching is, and how its done, my question what what benefits does this have vs not broaching? to determine which would be the best solution for the purpose of the rifle

April 25, 2012, 12:38 PM	#14
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	hmm.. found some blueprints for the mauser action... had an idea of using steel rod with a square groove cut in it to fit the broach... and have different pieces, with the groove cut to different depths to broach the receiver... on the other end of the steel rod i could drill and tap it to fit lugs thatll ride in the raceway on one side to help align the broach as it cuts the raceways in the other side... and i guess this steel rod tool for holding the broach would be something to keep, as a tool to simplify broaching other receivers should i decide to make more for myself (i doubt i will though)... but seems for the front-locking actions broaching would be the way to go... and i shouldnt make my raceways TOO tight.. otherwise a little dirt or debris could cause the bolt to "stick" or be rough to operate... as for these mauser blueprints, i need to recreate these in 3D, and shorten the receiver and the bolt for a "short action" in .308.. since ive decided on .308 winchester for this project there would be no point in building a full-length action as it would just be unused weight

April 25, 2012, 12:40 PM	#15
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	it seems though that i would prefer a small ring mauser... large rings are stronger, better for magnum calibers, and other larger recoiling calibers, but the rifle im looking into is a .308, so i dont need the extra weight or security, so i think i would rather have a small ring mauser to save the weight, its already a bit shorter of an action... so i think for my goals, i would benefit more with a small ring vs a large Last edited by jason41987; April 25, 2012 at 12:51 PM.

April 25, 2012, 01:46 PM	#16
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	thought this machining from scratch could be quite the pain in the rear... so anyone familiar with these parker-hale M98 receiver castings? these should have the raceways there... needing to be cleaned up, filed to proper specifications, threads cut, etc.. seems like this might be an easier start than machining from scratch, what do you think?

April 26, 2012, 07:46 AM	#17
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	While the 308 is not a magnum caliber it is a high pressure round, and typically not recommended for small ring Mausers. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

April 26, 2012, 11:56 AM	#18
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	yeah.. thats true... whats the generally recommended pressure limit for the small ring mauser? anyone know?

April 26, 2012, 12:14 PM	#19
hhunter318 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 163	I don't know if anyone mentioned it earlier, but have you considered wire edm for the bolt raceways? Much more precise than broaching. Or you could just eliminate the bolt raceways altogether and consider a fat bolt design like T/C and Weatherby use on some of their rifles. I have some CAD files where I designed some actions. I think they are larger than what you're looking to create though.

April 26, 2012, 06:51 PM	#20
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Fat bolt designs are usually multi-lug, which would IMHO involve even more complex breech work than necessary for the Mauser 98 action. Even if the bolt locks into the barrel or barrel extension, I assume you (Jason) will want to produce a shootable product, not just an action, so if your bolt locks into the barrel, you will have to design and make the barrel breech as well. The small ring Mausers were made for cartridges in the 40-45k psi range. They have been used for rounds exceeding that, but usually are not recommended for rounds in the 60k range like the .308. Of course, that is assuming an old action with early 1890's metallurgy, so it would not apply to a new action made from modern steel alloy. Still, the 98 action has features, such as the way it handles gas escape, that the early actions don't have, and an exact copy wouldn't either. I am not very familiar with EDM, though I know generally how it works. But it seems to me to be a fairly expensive setup. Jim

April 27, 2012, 08:56 AM	#21
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I would think a Kar98a - a '98 design but with small ring - would be suitable if made out of modern steel like 4140. Also, Frank DeHaas pointed out that the Husqvarna actions advertised as modernized Mausers were modernized '96s, not a '98 pattern.

April 27, 2012, 01:21 PM	#22
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	yeah.. i was listening to someone else mention the small ring 98s as well.. that does seem like the best choice for an action to save weight while still safely being able to manage the pressure of .308, so i really like that idea for an action... i heard its possible, though much, much more time consuming to use a jig with progressively finer files to file the raceways into the action... has anyone seen someone do this before?... it would take quite a while though anyway though.. its strange someone mentioned EDM machining... i was actually debating whether or not i should get into that as a replacement to mechanical machining for metal parts... ive been thinking about setting up a small three or four axis machine Last edited by jason41987; April 27, 2012 at 01:39 PM.

April 27, 2012, 08:45 PM	#25
jason41987 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 479	i guess what i was really trying to ask about broaching vs "fat bolt".. is almost every bolt action ive seen the internals for so far have been broached.. so when i think of a bolt action receiver, i automatically imagine broached raceways... so im looking for a description, or photos of what exactly the "fat bolt" style is?