Dr. Ruth Vas a Schnipa!

Dan in GA · February 28, 2002, 12:48 AM

For those of you that didn't catch "Politically Incorrect with Bill Moher"(a program I usually don't watch)tonight, Moher had among his guests, Dr. Ruth Westheimer. The topic of discussion was the Texas trial of a mother that killed her 4(or 5?) small children.

I don't know how the conversation led to this, but Dr. Ruth was making a statement that people have an obligation to act when they see something that is wrong, to correct it. She used as an example, that she was formerly a sniper in the Isreali Army, and could still put five bullets in a spot she demonstrated by making a small circle with her forefinger and thumb. She went on to say that she knows how to toss grenades, and although she has never killed a human being, she was seriously wounded herself. Moher and his other guests sat there speechless, as I'm sure those viewing the program were also.

I don't think she was condoning a Wild, Wild West mentality and I haven't a clue as to Dr. Ruth's views on the 2nd Amendment, but it appears she was and still is a shooter. It was refreshing to see a celebrity that isn't afraid to say on television we all have an obligation to right what's wrong, and she is capable of handling a firearm if she ever needed one. ........Dan in GA

deej · February 28, 2002, 12:53 AM

Well, that's the difference between people like Bill Maher, who fly first class and have private security patrolling their homes, and people like Dr. Ruth, who...well, fly first class, but have BTDT.

Maher lives in the world of emotion, and Dr. Ruth lives in the real world.

(btw - I really wish Maher would stop calling himself a Libertarian, it's really giving the rest of us a bad name.)

DJ

Fred Hansen · February 28, 2002, 04:00 AM

Jim March · February 28, 2002, 04:17 AM

It came up in the context of Bill mocking her when she talked about ordinary people needing to stand up for what was right - she was sitting next to Holyfield and the obvious insinuation was that she'd be utterly helpless against somebody of his size.

Wow, did she ever put THAT concept to rest

.

Skorzeny · February 28, 2002, 04:33 AM

I don't know whether it's true or not, but I've been told (and read) conflicting stories about Israeli military service "Dr. Ruth" performed.

Some say she was a "sniper." Others say that she served, but was not a sniper (or even in a combat service) whose role has been exaggerated to give her a heroic persona.

Skorzeny

deej · February 28, 2002, 07:28 AM

Who cares, if the SHTF, I'd rather have her next to me than half a dozen Bill Mahers.

DJ

FPrice · February 28, 2002, 07:49 AM

"Who cares, if the SHTF, I'd rather have her next to me than half a dozen Bill Mahers."

Why?

half a dozen Bill Mahers stacked up would provide a very nice shield for your shooting position.

nswgru1 · February 28, 2002, 09:09 AM

DELETED due to popular demand.

Coronach · February 28, 2002, 09:18 AM

Wow. File that under 'uncalled for.'

Mike

TheBluesMan · February 28, 2002, 09:19 AM

nswgru1 - Take it to email.

Yowza · February 28, 2002, 09:21 AM

That's not what I'd file it under.

Rick

Indy_SIG · February 28, 2002, 09:26 AM

I opened this thread to see what a "schnipa" is.......thank God it isn't what I was afraid it was

deej · February 28, 2002, 09:43 AM

FPrice:

I stand corrected! You're right, I'd rather have a dozen each of Bill Maher and Rosie.

(Actually I'd probably only need one or two Rosies.)

DJ

Oleg Volk · February 28, 2002, 09:45 AM

From what little I know of the Israeli Army, they don't use women as front-line personnel (though all of Israel is small enough to be a front line). However, women do train as snipers and do teach other snipers, including men. That matches the story.

Scorezny, in my experience, has never shown contempt for any peoples. That he might question accuracy of a story or that he might be critical of political leadership of some country or another does not make him a bigot in my eyes.

D.W. Drang · February 28, 2002, 10:39 AM

"I Heard" that Dr. Ruth was a sniper in the Hagganah, NOT the IDF...which DOES make it possible that she "saw the elephant"...except that it would be a guerilla elephant; depending on the context, it might even be a terrorism elephant. (I.e., was she sniping at Arabs in '47, or British in '44...?)
The Israeli's DID put women into battle in '47, they couldn't afford not to--and their experiance then caused them to decide never to do so again, if they could avoid it. They discovered that there are some cultures where male soldiers will fight twice as hard to avoid defeat and capture by "mere" women.

NOTE: When I put "'I Heard'" in quotes like that, it means that I'm aware that hearing it somewhere does not constitute proof. I'm just too lazy to research it.

pdmoderator · February 28, 2002, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Are you usink a metal chacket? Alvays use a metal chacket!

-pdmoderator

buzz_knox · February 28, 2002, 12:39 PM

The Israelis used women in combat until they began to recover the bodies of women captured by Arabs. What the Arabs did to the prisoners has kept the Israelis from using women in front-line units ever since.

Skorzeny · February 28, 2002, 03:22 PM

Huh? Did nswgru1 launch a personal attack of some kind on me between my posts?

Let me guess. He didn't like the fact that I questioned the validity of a story of someone who happens to have served in the Haganah. Jeez! This has nothing to do with Dr. Ruth's ethnicity or national origin. It simply has to do with the fact that stories about many celebrities are often exaggerated to give them "heroic" personas, and I happened to have heard and read something similar about the "sniper" claim.

I'd do the same if I heard/read similar things about some other celebrity of, say, an Arabic background, but alas, I am not personally aware of any Arab-American celebrity in the US.

Some folks really do see the bogeyman everywhere...

As for Israeli women in combat, I found the following (I cannot vouch for its veracity):

Quote:

An estimated 12,000 women were combatants in the 1948 War of Independence, most were enlisted in the 60,000 member Zahal, the official army established by the Haganah. Initially women were fully integrated into the Israeli army, they trained, fought and were billeted with men.

Eventually political pressure, primarily from the large Orthodox Jewish electorate, led to the creation of segregated male and female units with the women's units assigned primarily to support functions unless their deployment in combat became absolutely necessary. However those women who were already assigned to mixed-gender combat units remained with their units and continued to fight on the front lines.

Although women were ordered out of the front lines by David Ben Gurion in 1950 there were numerous reports of Israeli women fighting in both 1956 and 1960 and reports of female commandos, including Lt. Yael Dayan, daughter of Moshe Dayan, fighting as late as 1966.

From: http://www.gendergap.com/military/Warriors-2.htm

Skorzeny

Zundfolge · February 28, 2002, 05:04 PM

Here's the P.I. Transcript in question

http://abc.abcnews.go.com/primetime/...2001-02/1.html

Halffast · February 28, 2002, 05:30 PM

Dr. Ruth: But during the Holocaust, that's the same argument that some people said, that there were reasons for that.
It's not just an argument. We, society, has to watch out.
If I know that he's going to do something bad, I --
Look at the face.

Eric: What are you gonna do? You're gonna watch.
Who are you gonna call?
[ Light laughter ]

Don't call me.

Bill: Get another pillow and kiss your ass good-bye there, Dr. Ruth.

Dr. Ruth: I told that I was a sniper --

[ Indecipherable ]

--
before the Israeli army.

[ Talking over each other ]

Bill: You were a sniper?

Dr. Ruth: I know how to throw hand grenades, but I've never killed anybody. I was badly wounded, but it gave me certainly respect when I look at --
I look at how everybody's also maybe overreact.
We have to be very responsible.

Interesting how Dan could understand what she said, but it was indeciperable to the transcriber? Politically Incorrect my a$$!

David

Coronach · February 28, 2002, 10:45 PM

LOL. Thats funny. And not-funny.

Perhaps someone with TiVo should send them the real transcript...and if they fail to post it, send it to Fox News. That might give the guys at Fox something to gnaw on for a moment or two.

:P

Mike

David Park · February 28, 2002, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Ruth, dedicated to the building of a Jewish homeland, joined the Haganah and was trained as a sniper. On her twentieth birthday she had just finished up guard duty when an Arab shell exploded at her feet, seriously injuring her. Her recovery was slow, but she survived to walk again.

http://www.germanheritage.com/biogra...estheimer.html

Quote:

After the war she went to Israel to fight for a Jewish homeland. She was trained as a sniper, but never actually killed anybody. "Everybody at the time was trained," she said. "It wasn't an act of heroism on my part."

In 1948, on her 20th birthday, she was badly wounded. "Guess which hospital made it possible for me to dance all night and to ski? It was Hadassah."

But, the 4-foot-7 Westheimer hastened to add, "That's not why I'm short."

http://www.bham.net/shofar/1997/1197/drruth.html

Fred Hansen · February 28, 2002, 11:34 PM

If only all the liberal fruitcakes of the world were as hardcore as Dr. Ruth. Rock on Dr. Ruth! Rock on! Hey! Any of you Al-Qaeda types out there, why don't you throw down on Dr. Ruth? Then everybody in hell can point and laugh at the warriors that got whacked by a little old lady.

Skorzeny · March 1, 2002, 02:38 AM

David Park:

Your source makes sense. Who knows what the story is of her "sniper training"?

Either way, I like her philosophy (about self-defense, not sex therapy).

BTW, I met her in person once (she probably does not remember, as I was one of MANY she met that night). She was a pretty hilarious person for sure.

Skorzeny

David Park · March 1, 2002, 04:47 PM

Yeah, I thought those sources seemed pretty reliable, mentioning sniper training (not sniper combat) and being wounded during guard duty. I don't know much about the Israeli military, but I'd have to agree with Oleg's comment and speculate that women were snipers specifically to provide some distance between themselves and the front lines, as opposed to the male ground-pounders.

She seems to mention the sniper bit a lot in talks and interviews, so I suspect she exaggerates her current grenade-throwing ability a little bit for effect, but apparently she still does practice with a rifle. I suspect her feelings on RKBA have more in common with present-day Israelis than fellow New Yorkers like Chuck Schumer.

February 28, 2002, 12:48 AM	#1
Dan in GA Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 1999 Posts: 212	Dr. Ruth Vas a Schnipa! For those of you that didn't catch "Politically Incorrect with Bill Moher"(a program I usually don't watch)tonight, Moher had among his guests, Dr. Ruth Westheimer. The topic of discussion was the Texas trial of a mother that killed her 4(or 5?) small children. I don't know how the conversation led to this, but Dr. Ruth was making a statement that people have an obligation to act when they see something that is wrong, to correct it. She used as an example, that she was formerly a sniper in the Isreali Army, and could still put five bullets in a spot she demonstrated by making a small circle with her forefinger and thumb. She went on to say that she knows how to toss grenades, and although she has never killed a human being, she was seriously wounded herself. Moher and his other guests sat there speechless, as I'm sure those viewing the program were also. I don't think she was condoning a Wild, Wild West mentality and I haven't a clue as to Dr. Ruth's views on the 2nd Amendment, but it appears she was and still is a shooter. It was refreshing to see a celebrity that isn't afraid to say on television we all have an obligation to right what's wrong, and she is capable of handling a firearm if she ever needed one. ........Dan in GA __________________ Dan in GA

February 28, 2002, 12:53 AM	#2
deej Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2002 Location: Silicon Valley, (Occupied) California Republic Posts: 226	Well, that's the difference between people like Bill Maher, who fly first class and have private security patrolling their homes, and people like Dr. Ruth, who...well, fly first class, but have BTDT. Maher lives in the world of emotion, and Dr. Ruth lives in the real world. (btw - I really wish Maher would stop calling himself a Libertarian, it's really giving the rest of us a bad name.) DJ __________________ "Thus, the particular phraseology of the Constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written Constitutions, that a law repugnant to the Constitution is void, and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument." - Chief Justice Marshall, Marbury v. Madison

February 28, 2002, 04:00 AM	#3
Fred Hansen Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: The middle of WWIII Posts: 3,335	__________________ "This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?" Michael Moore

February 28, 2002, 04:17 AM	#4
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	It came up in the context of Bill mocking her when she talked about ordinary people needing to stand up for what was right - she was sitting next to Holyfield and the obvious insinuation was that she'd be utterly helpless against somebody of his size. Wow, did she ever put THAT concept to rest . __________________ Jim March

February 28, 2002, 04:33 AM	#5
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	I don't know whether it's true or not, but I've been told (and read) conflicting stories about Israeli military service "Dr. Ruth" performed. Some say she was a "sniper." Others say that she served, but was not a sniper (or even in a combat service) whose role has been exaggerated to give her a heroic persona. Skorzeny __________________ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

February 28, 2002, 07:28 AM	#6
deej Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2002 Location: Silicon Valley, (Occupied) California Republic Posts: 226	Who cares, if the SHTF, I'd rather have her next to me than half a dozen Bill Mahers. DJ __________________ "Thus, the particular phraseology of the Constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written Constitutions, that a law repugnant to the Constitution is void, and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument." - Chief Justice Marshall, Marbury v. Madison

February 28, 2002, 07:49 AM	#7
FPrice Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts Posts: 1,456	deej... "Who cares, if the SHTF, I'd rather have her next to me than half a dozen Bill Mahers." Why? half a dozen Bill Mahers stacked up would provide a very nice shield for your shooting position. __________________ Frosty Price "No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai

February 28, 2002, 09:09 AM	#8
nswgru1 Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: MS Posts: 115	DELETED due to popular demand. __________________ The world breaks everyone and afterwards many are strong at the broken places, but those that will not break, it kills. It kills the very good, the very kind, and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these rest assured it will kill you too, but there will be no special hurry. Last edited by nswgru1; February 28, 2002 at 10:27 AM.

February 28, 2002, 09:18 AM	#9
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Wow. File that under 'uncalled for.' Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

February 28, 2002, 09:19 AM	#10
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	nswgru1 - Take it to email. __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

February 28, 2002, 09:21 AM	#11
Yowza Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 93	That's not what I'd file it under. Rick

February 28, 2002, 09:26 AM	#12
Indy_SIG Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2001 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 441	I opened this thread to see what a "schnipa" is.......thank God it isn't what I was afraid it was __________________ I refuse to be a willing victim.

February 28, 2002, 09:43 AM	#13
deej Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2002 Location: Silicon Valley, (Occupied) California Republic Posts: 226	FPrice: I stand corrected! You're right, I'd rather have a dozen each of Bill Maher and Rosie. (Actually I'd probably only need one or two Rosies.) DJ __________________ "Thus, the particular phraseology of the Constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written Constitutions, that a law repugnant to the Constitution is void, and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument." - Chief Justice Marshall, Marbury v. Madison

February 28, 2002, 09:45 AM	#14
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	From what little I know of the Israeli Army, they don't use women as front-line personnel (though all of Israel is small enough to be a front line). However, women do train as snipers and do teach other snipers, including men. That matches the story. Scorezny, in my experience, has never shown contempt for any peoples. That he might question accuracy of a story or that he might be critical of political leadership of some country or another does not make him a bigot in my eyes. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

February 28, 2002, 12:39 PM	#17
buzz_knox Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse Posts: 4,190	The Israelis used women in combat until they began to recover the bodies of women captured by Arabs. What the Arabs did to the prisoners has kept the Israelis from using women in front-line units ever since.

February 28, 2002, 05:04 PM	#19
Zundfolge Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2001 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 1,749	Here's the P.I. Transcript in question http://abc.abcnews.go.com/primetime/...2001-02/1.html __________________ "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws...you create a nation of law-breakers â€“ and then you cash in on guilt." Ayn Rand

February 28, 2002, 05:30 PM	#20
Halffast Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2000 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 525	Dr. Ruth: But during the Holocaust, that's the same argument that some people said, that there were reasons for that. It's not just an argument. We, society, has to watch out. If I know that he's going to do something bad, I -- Look at the face. Eric: What are you gonna do? You're gonna watch. Who are you gonna call? [ Light laughter ] Don't call me. Bill: Get another pillow and kiss your ass good-bye there, Dr. Ruth. Dr. Ruth: I told that I was a sniper -- [ Indecipherable ] -- before the Israeli army. [ Talking over each other ] Bill: You were a sniper? Dr. Ruth: I know how to throw hand grenades, but I've never killed anybody. I was badly wounded, but it gave me certainly respect when I look at -- I look at how everybody's also maybe overreact. We have to be very responsible. Interesting how Dan could understand what she said, but it was indeciperable to the transcriber? Politically Incorrect my a$$! David __________________ If your looking to government for the solution, you obviously don't understand the problem. Shameless Personal Plug - Read "Lights Out" A SHTF Novel in progress, by me. Molon Labe!

February 28, 2002, 10:45 PM	#21
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	LOL. Thats funny. And not-funny. Perhaps someone with TiVo should send them the real transcript...and if they fail to post it, send it to Fox News. That might give the guys at Fox something to gnaw on for a moment or two. :P Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

February 28, 2002, 11:34 PM	#23
Fred Hansen Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: The middle of WWIII Posts: 3,335	If only all the liberal fruitcakes of the world were as hardcore as Dr. Ruth. Rock on Dr. Ruth! Rock on! Hey! Any of you Al-Qaeda types out there, why don't you throw down on Dr. Ruth? Then everybody in hell can point and laugh at the warriors that got whacked by a little old lady. __________________ "This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?" Michael Moore

March 1, 2002, 02:38 AM	#24
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	David Park: Your source makes sense. Who knows what the story is of her "sniper training"? Either way, I like her philosophy (about self-defense, not sex therapy). BTW, I met her in person once (she probably does not remember, as I was one of MANY she met that night). She was a pretty hilarious person for sure. Skorzeny __________________ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

March 1, 2002, 04:47 PM	#25
David Park Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 1,224	Yeah, I thought those sources seemed pretty reliable, mentioning sniper training (not sniper combat) and being wounded during guard duty. I don't know much about the Israeli military, but I'd have to agree with Oleg's comment and speculate that women were snipers specifically to provide some distance between themselves and the front lines, as opposed to the male ground-pounders. She seems to mention the sniper bit a lot in talks and interviews, so I suspect she exaggerates her current grenade-throwing ability a little bit for effect, but apparently she still does practice with a rifle. I suspect her feelings on RKBA have more in common with present-day Israelis than fellow New Yorkers like Chuck Schumer.