Training to fight rather than training to shoot - Page 2

Brit · June 3, 2009, 11:10 AM

Vito,

As there is no CCW possible living in Illinois, getting in to a gun altercation legally whilst carrying a Pistol, is not possible.

But in your house it is possible, so running around on a dusty range getting special forces type training could be a waste of money.

Going armed in the house is OK? So home invasion training is one area you can explore, picking up a pistol from a bed side table can be mimicked on a range, placing targets at the range, at distances available in your home, on said range is possible, using IDPA cardboard targets, sliced shoulder to opposite hip could give you a peeping tom aspect you could meet inside your home.

Always fire twice, each time you practice this type of random target acquisition shooting? Why? Why not.

MLeake · June 3, 2009, 02:47 PM

... legal issues aside, don't forget that a smart BG won't give warnings. Unless you never walk around the corners of buildings, panel vans, etc, you will inevitably wander past potential hiding spots that may not get your attention.

So, what will you do if physical contact is initiated before your senses have caught up to the problem?

This is where training for movement, drawing, etc may come in handy.

Lee Lapin · June 3, 2009, 05:10 PM

See the thread at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=206311 , and look at the schedules of some of the itinerant instructors. They bring the training to ranges in your area, so you don't have to travel halfway across the country to them.

IMHO there's a difference between learning to shoot and learning to fight with a gun. If you've pretty well mastered the fundamentals of safety, shooting and hitting, loading/unloading/reloading/clearing stoppages, drawing from a holster and reholstering- then you're ready for most any instructor's basic handgun class.

You will be shooting in class, yes- but what you will be LEARNING is how to fight with a gun.

Don't let age and physical limitations worry you. Tell the instructor up front if you have problems. They will work with you. You may have to live with a little extra attention during breaks, lunch etc. but a good instructor will see to it you get your moneys' worth. After all, you paid as much as everyone else to be there- it's your class too. And if you need help with something, a good instructor will see that you get it.

I've had the benefit of some excellent trainers, and to my mind, the expert eye diagnosing what you are doing while you do it on the firing line is the best thing about training. My wife and I just got back from Louis Awerbuck's tactical handgun refresher not long ago, and Louis is IMHO the best diagnostician in a business that is in general full of sharp eyed, experienced trainers. There will be suggestions of better ways to do things, options to explore, in short your learning curve will be substantially steepened by working with a good trainer in a way absolutely nothing else can do for you. Shooting a million rounds on a flat range all by yourself won't do that for you.

Best advice I can give is to pick an instructor and go for it, the sooner the better.

lpl

WW2 · June 3, 2009, 06:27 PM

I was watching the Outdoor Channel and one of the shooting programs (I don't remember which one. Possibly Best Defense or Shooting USA?) had an instructor demonstrate what "Gut Shots" using a 1911 will not work.

Basically, he racked the slide and fired one round in to the embankment to prove that the gun was loaded and capable of firing. Then he went to the cardboard target and jambed his 1911 in to the target as you would in a FoF Gut Shot. He pulled the trigger multiple times and only got "click, click, click". Then he pulled the gun back about an inch from the target and BANG!

The point was that if you press the muzzle of your semi-auto pistol in to a target, it will likely slightly push the slide back and disengage the firing mechanizimI was watching the Outdoor Channel and one of the shooting programs (I don't remember which one; Possibly Best Defense or Shooting USA) had an instructor demonstrate that "Gut Shots" using a 1911 will not work.

Basically, he racked the slide and fired one round in to the embankment to prove that the gun was loaded and capable of firing. Then he went to the cardboard target and jammed his 1911 in to the target as you would in a FoF Gut Shot. He pulled the trigger multiple times and only got "click, click, and click". Then he pulled the gun back about an inch from the target and BANG!

The point was that if you press the muzzle of your semi-auto pistol in to a target, it will likely slightly push the slide back and disengage the firing mechanism. He then went on to explain that you need to keep your gun clear of the target and yourself so that the slide will not catch on your clothing and so you do not shoot yourself.

Be aware, in a FoF situation where a gut shot is called for you will need space (even if only 1 millimeter) between your muzzle and the target. Also keep space between your side and the gun otherwise you and your clothing could be entangled in the cycling slide.

Kmar40 · June 3, 2009, 06:31 PM

http://www.odmp.org/officer/11072-pa...john-a.-rector

Whenever I hear people touting Bill Jordan, I always feel the need to also memorialize the only person Bill Jordan ever shot, John Rector, USBP.

RIP

James K · June 3, 2009, 08:47 PM

WW2, gut shots won't work with a 1911 only if the gun is pushed hard against the opponent's body. If it is just held there, it will fire. And also note that that is the case only with a recoil operated pistol; a blowback pistol (or a revolver) will work just fine when pressed against the target. In other words, it you are on the receiving end of a pistol shoved into your gut, better examine it closely (of course you can do this calmly and carefully!) to see if it won't fire.

I have spent a fair amount of time on ranges, firing formal bullseye, bowling pins, iron animals, gongs, etc., and have taken LE courses. I am not sure any of that time would really prepare me for a close and unexpected encounter of the wrong kind. Familiarity with the pistol is important, because at three feet (10 is long range in a real gunfight) you can't make many mistakes. And I think it is incredibly stupid to carry more than one type of gun. If you carry a Glock on Monday, a M1911 on Tuesday, a PPK on Wednesday, you are not a gunfighter, you are a gun collector who just likes to tote his collection around. And you may die, frantically trying to pull the trigger on a cocked and locked 1911 because you forgot it wasn't Monday.

Jim

robmkivseries70 · June 3, 2009, 09:19 PM

Just to reiterate what Jim said, I was doing double taps with my BHP and was caught standing there pulling the trigger with out reseting it. I started with the 1911 many years ago and under some pressure I defaulted to that trigger reset.

Best,
Rob

Marty Hayes · June 3, 2009, 10:22 PM

Based on 30 years in law enforcement and 20 years as a full-time firearms instructor, I would estimate that in the grand scheme of armed self-defense, the actual "gunfight" and who wins that based on bullets striking their intended target is about 20-30 percent of the equation. Other aspects of armed self-defense, including tactical preparation, equipment selection, legal studies and mindset development cover the other precent. So, based on the above theory, perhaps some time spent on the other areas is as critical or even more so as going to a force-on-force gunfighting school.

pax · June 3, 2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

If you carry a Glock on Monday, a M1911 on Tuesday, a PPK on Wednesday, you are not a gunfighter, you are a gun collector who just likes to tote his collection around. And you may die, frantically trying to pull the trigger on a cocked and locked 1911 because you forgot it wasn't Monday.

Jim, may I have your permission to add that to my quotes file?

pax

MisterPX · June 4, 2009, 07:15 AM

Being in IL, you may want to check out Tactical Respones's FOF class, as they are often held near indianapolis. FWIW, I've had pistol classes and rifle classes, but FoF was incredible. It's kinda like SERE; you don't get a fancy badge, or jump outta planes, but you learn an incredible amount about yourself.

NRAhab · June 5, 2009, 10:43 PM

Whoopseedoodle, didn't mean to post in this thread.

MauiDoc · June 11, 2009, 01:13 AM

Posted this before somewhere here, but check out Tim Larkin's system, Target Focus Training (targetfocustraining.com) I've learned an awful lot just from his free stuff, and have subscribed to his online training videos. He is very big on mindset, and using violence as a tool against those who would use it against you. I'm hoping to make time to take his training class here in Hawaii next month, and will post results then, if I go.

Looks like very good stuff--he is former SCARS instructor.

Brit · June 11, 2009, 05:42 AM

Saw a wicked looking device to allow push against body/head, and press trigger on a .45 at an exhibit, full sized 1911, 1/16" piece of steel, fastened to the front of the frame, came up in front of the muzzle, but the design allowed the pistol to fire when pressed against an object, 3 sharp short spikes stopped it slipping.

Just saw one of these, around 15 years ago. It was under glass so you could not handle it.

evan1293 · June 11, 2009, 05:45 AM

BUY THE FIGHTING PISTOL DVD SET FROM TACTICAL RESPONSE!! You won't be sorry. Its full of great info. That will get the ball rolling for you . The next step is to take some classes.

Executive Solution · June 11, 2009, 08:03 PM

Train as you fight, fight as you train............I think I have heard that some where before! www.floridafireamstraining.com

Guns are tools, training to use those tools or any other defensive / offensive tools in a REALISTIC environment is what wins fights. Shooting IS part of the equation, (lets face it, if you don't hit the guy, all the other training ain't worth squat) but I say again shooting is ONLY part of the equation.

ezenbrowntown · June 17, 2009, 10:20 AM

I'm a big proponent on practicing things that are practical. Do I still "shoot groups" at my outdoor range? Sure. I want to be familiar and accurate with my weapon. But I also practice shooting one handed, shooting close range without fully raising the gun, shooting on a retreat, point and shoot, etc. At 3 yards, I can retreat to the side and put several shots COM in a target without raising my gun up to use my sights while moving.

I hope if it ever comes down to it, that I'd have time to draw, stance, etc. But if not, I'd like to have some "non target experience" to go with it. I allude it to a basketball player. Does a basketball player need to be able to hit a "catch, sqaure and shoot" shot? Yes. Does he need to be able to hit an off-balanced, hand in his face, leaning jumper as well? Yes.

June 3, 2009, 11:10 AM	#26
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	No CCW in IL Vito, As there is no CCW possible living in Illinois, getting in to a gun altercation legally whilst carrying a Pistol, is not possible. But in your house it is possible, so running around on a dusty range getting special forces type training could be a waste of money. Going armed in the house is OK? So home invasion training is one area you can explore, picking up a pistol from a bed side table can be mimicked on a range, placing targets at the range, at distances available in your home, on said range is possible, using IDPA cardboard targets, sliced shoulder to opposite hip could give you a peeping tom aspect you could meet inside your home. Always fire twice, each time you practice this type of random target acquisition shooting? Why? Why not.

June 3, 2009, 02:47 PM	#27
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Having gun ready in hand... ... legal issues aside, don't forget that a smart BG won't give warnings. Unless you never walk around the corners of buildings, panel vans, etc, you will inevitably wander past potential hiding spots that may not get your attention. So, what will you do if physical contact is initiated before your senses have caught up to the problem? This is where training for movement, drawing, etc may come in handy.

June 3, 2009, 06:27 PM	#29
WW2 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Location: Southern California. Posts: 254	gut shot failure to fire I was watching the Outdoor Channel and one of the shooting programs (I don't remember which one. Possibly Best Defense or Shooting USA?) had an instructor demonstrate what "Gut Shots" using a 1911 will not work. Basically, he racked the slide and fired one round in to the embankment to prove that the gun was loaded and capable of firing. Then he went to the cardboard target and jambed his 1911 in to the target as you would in a FoF Gut Shot. He pulled the trigger multiple times and only got "click, click, click". Then he pulled the gun back about an inch from the target and BANG! The point was that if you press the muzzle of your semi-auto pistol in to a target, it will likely slightly push the slide back and disengage the firing mechanizimI was watching the Outdoor Channel and one of the shooting programs (I don't remember which one; Possibly Best Defense or Shooting USA) had an instructor demonstrate that "Gut Shots" using a 1911 will not work. Basically, he racked the slide and fired one round in to the embankment to prove that the gun was loaded and capable of firing. Then he went to the cardboard target and jammed his 1911 in to the target as you would in a FoF Gut Shot. He pulled the trigger multiple times and only got "click, click, and click". Then he pulled the gun back about an inch from the target and BANG! The point was that if you press the muzzle of your semi-auto pistol in to a target, it will likely slightly push the slide back and disengage the firing mechanism. He then went on to explain that you need to keep your gun clear of the target and yourself so that the slide will not catch on your clothing and so you do not shoot yourself. Be aware, in a FoF situation where a gut shot is called for you will need space (even if only 1 millimeter) between your muzzle and the target. Also keep space between your side and the gun otherwise you and your clothing could be entangled in the cycling slide.

June 3, 2009, 10:22 PM	#33
Marty Hayes Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 1999 Posts: 244	Based on 30 years in law enforcement and 20 years as a full-time firearms instructor, I would estimate that in the grand scheme of armed self-defense, the actual "gunfight" and who wins that based on bullets striking their intended target is about 20-30 percent of the equation. Other aspects of armed self-defense, including tactical preparation, equipment selection, legal studies and mindset development cover the other precent. So, based on the above theory, perhaps some time spent on the other areas is as critical or even more so as going to a force-on-force gunfighting school. __________________ Marty Hayes, President The Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, LLC. www.armedcitizensnetwork.org

June 5, 2009, 10:43 PM	#36
NRAhab Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 683	Whoopseedoodle, didn't mean to post in this thread. __________________ Join the community at GunUp! Last edited by NRAhab; June 5, 2009 at 10:54 PM.

June 3, 2009, 05:10 PM	#28
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	See the thread at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=206311 , and look at the schedules of some of the itinerant instructors. They bring the training to ranges in your area, so you don't have to travel halfway across the country to them. IMHO there's a difference between learning to shoot and learning to fight with a gun. If you've pretty well mastered the fundamentals of safety, shooting and hitting, loading/unloading/reloading/clearing stoppages, drawing from a holster and reholstering- then you're ready for most any instructor's basic handgun class. You will be shooting in class, yes- but what you will be LEARNING is how to fight with a gun. Don't let age and physical limitations worry you. Tell the instructor up front if you have problems. They will work with you. You may have to live with a little extra attention during breaks, lunch etc. but a good instructor will see to it you get your moneys' worth. After all, you paid as much as everyone else to be there- it's your class too. And if you need help with something, a good instructor will see that you get it. I've had the benefit of some excellent trainers, and to my mind, the expert eye diagnosing what you are doing while you do it on the firing line is the best thing about training. My wife and I just got back from Louis Awerbuck's tactical handgun refresher not long ago, and Louis is IMHO the best diagnostician in a business that is in general full of sharp eyed, experienced trainers. There will be suggestions of better ways to do things, options to explore, in short your learning curve will be substantially steepened by working with a good trainer in a way absolutely nothing else can do for you. Shooting a million rounds on a flat range all by yourself won't do that for you. Best advice I can give is to pick an instructor and go for it, the sooner the better. lpl

June 3, 2009, 06:31 PM	#30
Kmar40 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 668	http://www.odmp.org/officer/11072-pa...john-a.-rector Whenever I hear people touting Bill Jordan, I always feel the need to also memorialize the only person Bill Jordan ever shot, John Rector, USBP. RIP

June 3, 2009, 08:47 PM	#31
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	WW2, gut shots won't work with a 1911 only if the gun is pushed hard against the opponent's body. If it is just held there, it will fire. And also note that that is the case only with a recoil operated pistol; a blowback pistol (or a revolver) will work just fine when pressed against the target. In other words, it you are on the receiving end of a pistol shoved into your gut, better examine it closely (of course you can do this calmly and carefully!) to see if it won't fire. I have spent a fair amount of time on ranges, firing formal bullseye, bowling pins, iron animals, gongs, etc., and have taken LE courses. I am not sure any of that time would really prepare me for a close and unexpected encounter of the wrong kind. Familiarity with the pistol is important, because at three feet (10 is long range in a real gunfight) you can't make many mistakes. And I think it is incredibly stupid to carry more than one type of gun. If you carry a Glock on Monday, a M1911 on Tuesday, a PPK on Wednesday, you are not a gunfighter, you are a gun collector who just likes to tote his collection around. And you may die, frantically trying to pull the trigger on a cocked and locked 1911 because you forgot it wasn't Monday. Jim

June 3, 2009, 09:19 PM	#32
robmkivseries70 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2005 Location: free territory Posts: 203	Just to reiterate what Jim said, I was doing double taps with my BHP and was caught standing there pulling the trigger with out reseting it. I started with the 1911 many years ago and under some pressure I defaulted to that trigger reset. Best, Rob

June 4, 2009, 07:15 AM	#35
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	Being in IL, you may want to check out Tactical Respones's FOF class, as they are often held near indianapolis. FWIW, I've had pistol classes and rifle classes, but FoF was incredible. It's kinda like SERE; you don't get a fancy badge, or jump outta planes, but you learn an incredible amount about yourself.

June 11, 2009, 01:13 AM	#37
MauiDoc Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2007 Location: Mountainside Posts: 126	Check Out Target Focus Training Posted this before somewhere here, but check out Tim Larkin's system, Target Focus Training (targetfocustraining.com) I've learned an awful lot just from his free stuff, and have subscribed to his online training videos. He is very big on mindset, and using violence as a tool against those who would use it against you. I'm hoping to make time to take his training class here in Hawaii next month, and will post results then, if I go. Looks like very good stuff--he is former SCARS instructor.

June 11, 2009, 05:42 AM	#38
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	Slide protector Saw a wicked looking device to allow push against body/head, and press trigger on a .45 at an exhibit, full sized 1911, 1/16" piece of steel, fastened to the front of the frame, came up in front of the muzzle, but the design allowed the pistol to fire when pressed against an object, 3 sharp short spikes stopped it slipping. Just saw one of these, around 15 years ago. It was under glass so you could not handle it.

June 11, 2009, 05:45 AM	#39
evan1293 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 783	BUY THE FIGHTING PISTOL DVD SET FROM TACTICAL RESPONSE!! You won't be sorry. Its full of great info. That will get the ball rolling for you . The next step is to take some classes.

June 11, 2009, 08:03 PM	#40
Executive Solution Member Join Date: June 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 18	Train as you fight, fight as you train............I think I have heard that some where before! www.floridafireamstraining.com Guns are tools, training to use those tools or any other defensive / offensive tools in a REALISTIC environment is what wins fights. Shooting IS part of the equation, (lets face it, if you don't hit the guy, all the other training ain't worth squat) but I say again shooting is ONLY part of the equation. __________________ "There is no problem so great, that a well placed .308 will not cure" www.floridafirearmstraining.com

June 17, 2009, 10:20 AM	#41
ezenbrowntown Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Posts: 51	I'm a big proponent on practicing things that are practical. Do I still "shoot groups" at my outdoor range? Sure. I want to be familiar and accurate with my weapon. But I also practice shooting one handed, shooting close range without fully raising the gun, shooting on a retreat, point and shoot, etc. At 3 yards, I can retreat to the side and put several shots COM in a target without raising my gun up to use my sights while moving. I hope if it ever comes down to it, that I'd have time to draw, stance, etc. But if not, I'd like to have some "non target experience" to go with it. I allude it to a basketball player. Does a basketball player need to be able to hit a "catch, sqaure and shoot" shot? Yes. Does he need to be able to hit an off-balanced, hand in his face, leaning jumper as well? Yes.