Seeking Information on Peters-Stahl 10mm

psyfly · March 30, 2010, 02:54 PM

This is a 1911 (or, if you are a purist, a 1911-style) pistol in 10mm.

The slide is marked "Springfield Armory" on the right flat and "MODEL 1911 - A1" on the left. The breech-face is 10mm. There is an Ulm House Proof mark on the slide.

It has a single extractor.

It has adjustable sights mounted which are marked with the Peters-Stahl logo.

The linkless barrel assembly has normal 1911-style lugs and is marked 10mm and marked with the Peters-Stahl Logo and the ULM House Proof mark.

The frame (Essex) is marked with the Peters-Stahl Logo and a series of Ulm House Proof marks consistent with a 1990 date.

The pistol runs like clockwork and is accurate within my own abilities (that is, it groups as well as anything I have or have recently shot). I like it.

I can find information on both the Springfield Armory Omega and the Springfield Armory Linkless.

This is neither.

I have contacted Springfield Armory and they deny any knowledge of the pistol and flatly stated that it has not been in their shop.

I have also attempted to contact a person identified as a distributor for Peters-Stahl here in Texas, but the information is apparently dated.

I have emailed Peters-Stahl without result.

From the information I have been able to glean, I infer that the pistol was built in the Peters-Stahl factory (armory?) using Peters-Stahl, Essex, and Springfield Armory components and proofed in 1990 by Ulm. I’ve not seen another just like it (although it’s pretty much identical to the SA Linkless, as far as I can tell). Therefore I suspect that it’s not a production pistol but either a prototype or a custom build.

Any information would be appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

Best,

Will

Jim Watson · March 30, 2010, 03:15 PM

The mill cut on the left side of the slide is where the original caliber designation was removed. Looks like a parts gun built up at PS.

psyfly · April 16, 2010, 10:14 AM

Thank you, Jim.

For those of us not in the know (and I tried to do a search) what is meant or implied by "parts gun"?

It would appear strange to me that someone in Germany would kind of throw together a gun from spare parts then go to the trouble of having it proofed and then somehow sold such that it would end up in W. TX.

Thanks again.

Will

mapsjanhere · April 16, 2010, 12:35 PM

There is one peculiarity with German gun laws, smaller caliber exchangeable barrels don't count against your (limited) guns you can own. So it's quite popular to order extra slides and barrel combinations to match an existing frame. At some point the original 45 slide became separated from the 10 mm slide, or, maybe after it was imported to the US, the owner took advantage of the more liberal gun laws to obtain a second frame and make a second pistol out of it. As on how it ended up in the US, importing your own guns is not much more difficult than doing any regular FFL transfer, you just need to find a suitably licensed FFL to handle the paperwork.

psyfly · June 29, 2010, 09:11 AM

Pardon the bump but I thought I would try again to see if there is anyone out there with any information.

I continue to shoot this pistol and it continues to perform flawlessly and with excellent accuracy. I (perhaps in my ignorance) remain impressed with it.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Will

James K · June 29, 2010, 12:55 PM

A "parts gun" is any gun built from parts of other guns or assembled from new parts made originally as spare parts. Essex frames are made as frames not as complete guns, so any pistol with an Essex frame is a "parts gun."

As to proof, it is not a matter of "trouble"; any gun made, built up, or brought into Germany is required by law to undergo proof testing.

I have always assumed that Peters-Stahl actually manufactured M1911 type frames to use their linkless system, but the use of an Essex frame might indicate otherwise.

I am curious about whether there are two different guns or just a grip change.

Jim

psyfly · June 29, 2010, 02:29 PM

Thanks, Jim, for the definition.

The two pictures were taken some time apart and just represented the best of each side (I'm not, obviously, a professional photographer

).

I have only one of these.

If Jim Watson is correct in his surmise (parts gun), then there is only one of these in existence, I guess. Not exactly a custom pistol, I suppose, but it is exceptionally well made.

My curiosity about how it ended up in my hands was not so much about the trouble, but about the story, whatever it is.

It seems odd that a "parts gun" which, I would assume, is put together for the assembler's personal use, would end up so far from home.

I assume, for example, that it didn't arrive here as a shipment of new stock to be sold by an American importer/distributor.

As mentioned above, except for the Peters-Stahl adjustable sights, it is pretty much identical to the 90's vintage SA Linkless.

The gun is badly in need of refinishing and I am assuming, for the time being, that it has little or no collectable value and will be shopping around for the right finish for it. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks again,

Will

James K · June 29, 2010, 03:44 PM

Believe me, plenty of parts guns have been sold and even made up for sale. I sold an Essex frame .45 a while back with a Colt GI replacement slide I picked up at a gun show. Gun shot well, too!

I am not sure of German law, but I think even a gun made or built for one's personal use has to be proved to be legal; it most certainly would if the gun were to be sold.

Your guess as to how it got here is as good as mine. Peters-Stahl had an importer a few years back and their guns were sold here in small numbers. If they were actually using Essex frames, that gun could have come in at that time. Or it could have been purchased in Germany by an American (GI, most likely) and brought back.

Jim

mapsjanhere · June 29, 2010, 04:31 PM

Jim, I doubt a GI purchased a German gun in Germany and brought it back, at least in the last 30 years. They can't buy them in German stores, and I doubt the PX has Peter Stahl weapons. Plus import paperwork is a pain.
As for getting an email reply, the Peter Stahl company is (again) in receiver ship, I saw adds in the DWJ for a successor company making the same weapons under a new name.

psyfly · August 31, 2010, 07:21 PM

Bump for September.

I'm thinking about bumping it maybe every quarter to see if somebody new out there knows something about it

.

I have also posted the question on Arfcom 10mm forum and also w/o significant information.

Thanks for looking, anyway.

Best,

Will

Andy Holden · January 13, 2011, 12:18 PM

Hello Will,
Did You manage to get all the information you wanted regarding the Pistol ? I came across the thread while i was googling something else.... thought to take the time and Register. Would be Glad to Help anyone with questions regarding the Peters Stahl type of Pistols etc. I worked for them when i left the Forces in 89-91. Then went Self employed...... Spent a few Years In The Middle East after that.... Then ended up in the UAE Working with a Mixture of about 40+ US/Aus/UK " Advisors "

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I am Still Working with Firearms Today. Should anyone need some info drop me a line.

Regards

Andy

Elkbreeder · February 14, 2011, 08:23 PM

I am looking for a Peters-Stahl pistol and any help you can give me will be appreciated. I would like to talk to you about these pistols also so please email me or post if you have any information about them. Also, I tried to get on your website but everything was in German. Was this the correct site?

TCHall/NC · February 28, 2011, 02:20 PM

>>I have contacted Springfield Armory and they deny any knowledge of the pistol and flatly stated that it has not been in their shop.

I have also attempted to contact a person identified as a distributor for Peters-Stahl here in Texas, but the information is apparently dated.

I have emailed Peters-Stahl without result.<<

Haven't been on the forum for ten years, and the first post I noticed was about Peters-Stal...

Joe Peters had a contract with Springfield back in the 80s to produce the "Springfield Omega" both as made up guns, and parts...

THEY supplied him with SA frames for some of that production... some pre-machined and later bare frames so he could cut to his specs...

He was building SA framed 1911s for the German market, and if I recall correctly, they were pretty much all built with a 9mm extractor so interchangeable barrels in several calibers could be used by changing just the barrel/spring...

The Omega (Peters-Stahl) Multicaliber was a long slide that was bigger, better, etc... Dual extractors, a semi-controlled feed, and an action amazingly like the H&K USP...

Mine is a Peter-Stahl top end on a Gold Cup frame I already owned.. 6" polygon barrel in .45 and a .38FSWC barrel as well...

When Joe's financial backer got tired of us American GIs hanging out with him at the factory and looking him up at matches he got bought out...

Joe treated us like loyal customers... The money guy forgot that shooters respond to word of mouth more than any amount if advertising could achieve...

With a little slight of hand Joe got out with his rights to working in the gun industry and patents intact... a very short non-compete period

He went to work for H&K a few years before the USP surfaced... with something amazingly similar to his patented locking mechanism<G>

It's a small world!

April 16, 2010, 10:14 AM	#3
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Thank you, Jim. For those of us not in the know (and I tried to do a search) what is meant or implied by "parts gun"? It would appear strange to me that someone in Germany would kind of throw together a gun from spare parts then go to the trouble of having it proofed and then somehow sold such that it would end up in W. TX. Thanks again. Will __________________ Show me the data

April 16, 2010, 12:35 PM	#4
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	There is one peculiarity with German gun laws, smaller caliber exchangeable barrels don't count against your (limited) guns you can own. So it's quite popular to order extra slides and barrel combinations to match an existing frame. At some point the original 45 slide became separated from the 10 mm slide, or, maybe after it was imported to the US, the owner took advantage of the more liberal gun laws to obtain a second frame and make a second pistol out of it. As on how it ended up in the US, importing your own guns is not much more difficult than doing any regular FFL transfer, you just need to find a suitably licensed FFL to handle the paperwork. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

June 29, 2010, 09:11 AM	#5
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Pardon the bump but I thought I would try again to see if there is anyone out there with any information. I continue to shoot this pistol and it continues to perform flawlessly and with excellent accuracy. I (perhaps in my ignorance) remain impressed with it. Thanks in advance for any information. Will __________________ Show me the data

June 29, 2010, 02:29 PM	#7
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Thanks, Jim, for the definition. The two pictures were taken some time apart and just represented the best of each side (I'm not, obviously, a professional photographer ). I have only one of these. If Jim Watson is correct in his surmise (parts gun), then there is only one of these in existence, I guess. Not exactly a custom pistol, I suppose, but it is exceptionally well made. My curiosity about how it ended up in my hands was not so much about the trouble, but about the story, whatever it is. It seems odd that a "parts gun" which, I would assume, is put together for the assembler's personal use, would end up so far from home. I assume, for example, that it didn't arrive here as a shipment of new stock to be sold by an American importer/distributor. As mentioned above, except for the Peters-Stahl adjustable sights, it is pretty much identical to the 90's vintage SA Linkless. The gun is badly in need of refinishing and I am assuming, for the time being, that it has little or no collectable value and will be shopping around for the right finish for it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks again, Will __________________ Show me the data

June 29, 2010, 04:31 PM	#9
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Jim, I doubt a GI purchased a German gun in Germany and brought it back, at least in the last 30 years. They can't buy them in German stores, and I doubt the PX has Peter Stahl weapons. Plus import paperwork is a pain. As for getting an email reply, the Peter Stahl company is (again) in receiver ship, I saw adds in the DWJ for a successor company making the same weapons under a new name. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

March 30, 2010, 03:15 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	The mill cut on the left side of the slide is where the original caliber designation was removed. Looks like a parts gun built up at PS.

June 29, 2010, 12:55 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	A "parts gun" is any gun built from parts of other guns or assembled from new parts made originally as spare parts. Essex frames are made as frames not as complete guns, so any pistol with an Essex frame is a "parts gun." As to proof, it is not a matter of "trouble"; any gun made, built up, or brought into Germany is required by law to undergo proof testing. I have always assumed that Peters-Stahl actually manufactured M1911 type frames to use their linkless system, but the use of an Essex frame might indicate otherwise. I am curious about whether there are two different guns or just a grip change. Jim

June 29, 2010, 03:44 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Believe me, plenty of parts guns have been sold and even made up for sale. I sold an Essex frame .45 a while back with a Colt GI replacement slide I picked up at a gun show. Gun shot well, too! I am not sure of German law, but I think even a gun made or built for one's personal use has to be proved to be legal; it most certainly would if the gun were to be sold. Your guess as to how it got here is as good as mine. Peters-Stahl had an importer a few years back and their guns were sold here in small numbers. If they were actually using Essex frames, that gun could have come in at that time. Or it could have been purchased in Germany by an American (GI, most likely) and brought back. Jim

August 31, 2010, 07:21 PM	#10
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Bump for September. I'm thinking about bumping it maybe every quarter to see if somebody new out there knows something about it . I have also posted the question on Arfcom 10mm forum and also w/o significant information. Thanks for looking, anyway. Best, Will __________________ Show me the data

January 13, 2011, 12:18 PM	#11
Andy Holden Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2011 Location: Germany Posts: 1	Peters Stahl Info. Hello Will, Did You manage to get all the information you wanted regarding the Pistol ? I came across the thread while i was googling something else.... thought to take the time and Register. Would be Glad to Help anyone with questions regarding the Peters Stahl type of Pistols etc. I worked for them when i left the Forces in 89-91. Then went Self employed...... Spent a few Years In The Middle East after that.... Then ended up in the UAE Working with a Mixture of about 40+ US/Aus/UK " Advisors " Anyway, to cut a long story short, I am Still Working with Firearms Today. Should anyone need some info drop me a line. Regards Andy

February 14, 2011, 08:23 PM	#12
Elkbreeder Junior Member Join Date: February 14, 2011 Posts: 1	Peters-Stahl 10mm pistol I am looking for a Peters-Stahl pistol and any help you can give me will be appreciated. I would like to talk to you about these pistols also so please email me or post if you have any information about them. Also, I tried to get on your website but everything was in German. Was this the correct site?

February 28, 2011, 02:20 PM	#13
TCHall/NC Junior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: Bitterroot Valley, MT Posts: 3	Peters-Stahl /Springfield 1911 >>I have contacted Springfield Armory and they deny any knowledge of the pistol and flatly stated that it has not been in their shop. I have also attempted to contact a person identified as a distributor for Peters-Stahl here in Texas, but the information is apparently dated. I have emailed Peters-Stahl without result.<< Haven't been on the forum for ten years, and the first post I noticed was about Peters-Stal... Joe Peters had a contract with Springfield back in the 80s to produce the "Springfield Omega" both as made up guns, and parts... THEY supplied him with SA frames for some of that production... some pre-machined and later bare frames so he could cut to his specs... He was building SA framed 1911s for the German market, and if I recall correctly, they were pretty much all built with a 9mm extractor so interchangeable barrels in several calibers could be used by changing just the barrel/spring... The Omega (Peters-Stahl) Multicaliber was a long slide that was bigger, better, etc... Dual extractors, a semi-controlled feed, and an action amazingly like the H&K USP... Mine is a Peter-Stahl top end on a Gold Cup frame I already owned.. 6" polygon barrel in .45 and a .38FSWC barrel as well... When Joe's financial backer got tired of us American GIs hanging out with him at the factory and looking him up at matches he got bought out... Joe treated us like loyal customers... The money guy forgot that shooters respond to word of mouth more than any amount if advertising could achieve... With a little slight of hand Joe got out with his rights to working in the gun industry and patents intact... a very short non-compete period He went to work for H&K a few years before the USP surfaced... with something amazingly similar to his patented locking mechanism<G> It's a small world! __________________ TC Hall/NC