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June 19, 2008, 03:47 PM | #51 | |
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June 19, 2008, 03:58 PM | #52 |
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't strategies change when using a mouse gun?
When using a larger caliber pistol it makes sense to shoot to COM. But when shooting a mouse gun, that strategy may not even slow down a determined attacker. If, however, when forced to use a mouse gun, you aim at the pelvic girdle do you not have a greater capacity to slow or end an attacker's charge on you? I am reminded of articles involving charging grizzly bears where the goal is to shoot to shoulders to stop the animal's ability to advance before trying to kill it. Why wouldn't the same reasoning apply in this situation? <><Peace
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June 19, 2008, 04:14 PM | #53 |
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If the other guy is armed in ANY way, shape or form then you need to be able to overpower him very quickly with bigger and better guns. In other words, one of the officers should of been using a shotgun or a rifle. The rifle should have been at least a .30 caliber or bigger, like a lever action .44 magnum saddle carbine or even a 45-70. We can second guess all day as to what is right or wrong as far as this situation is concerned but having studied a number of police involved shootings as a range officer, time and again I see where an officer tried to use his handgun when a rifle or shotgun would have been of better use to him/them. In a couple of weeks I have a new group of officers that I will be teaching about using firearms and how to shoot them. Again, the one main thing that I WILL impress on them is to rely on the police rifle or shotgun as their PRIMARY firearm and use their pistols as back-ups to the shoulder-mounted guns. This situation just re-inforces how wimpy pistols can be to me.
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June 19, 2008, 06:34 PM | #54 |
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There are lots of opinions about stopping power.
I have shot lots of animals and watched them die. What a difference between Quickshock and Eagle hollow point 22lr ammo! Above 2000 fps, there is shock wave that turns flesh to mush. Those shot by the DC sniper with a 223 died. 80% of those attacked with a handgun survive. As Elmer Keith says, you can eat right up to the hole. I have a friend who killed a perp with a 25acp after being screwed with a samurai sword back in 2000 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...1ed830f7f7e266 My current strategy is to use 25acp pistols for demonstrating double charges as a first step in a work up with drastically low SAAMI registered pressures, carry a 380 in my shirt pocket for low threat neighborhoods, and carry a 45 in bad neighborhoods. If I find myself in trouble, I will put a half dozen 45 cal holes through his lungs and then out run him. |
June 19, 2008, 06:47 PM | #55 |
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"You might as well carry around a load of throwing rocks in your pocket. You'll get about the same amount of protection and you don't need a CCW for the rocks."
Another irresponsible statement. Some kid might read that and shoot his friend, thinking that it won't hurt him any more than a rock. Think before you post, please. |
June 19, 2008, 09:39 PM | #56 |
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Bill,
Cain killed Able with a rock. Think about that before you post.
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June 19, 2008, 09:42 PM | #57 | |
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June 20, 2008, 07:35 AM | #58 | |
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June 20, 2008, 08:09 AM | #59 |
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I carry a Taurus PT25 when I walk my dog, because I'm usually in a pair of shorts and a tank top when nature calls him and changing into something that will let me carry a bigger gun isn't likely ... it's more for varmints than for bad guys, since my neighborhood hasn't seen a crime worse than mailbox bashing for years ... But it would never be my primary SD gun, I have a 9mm, .357 or .45 for that duty ... a .25 isn't much, but it will do the job on a skunk or snake if I need it to ...
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June 20, 2008, 07:54 PM | #60 | |
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“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides |
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June 21, 2008, 02:31 AM | #61 |
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Don't underestimate the Mice...
I could quickly pop off 7 rounds from my little .22 Beretta Bobcat...and I can't imagine anyone standing on the receiving end within 10 ft. who could withstand such a nasty unloading. Imagine 7 quick .22/.25 acp shots at close range to one's torso. That's nasty and very lethal. It might not be the optimum primary weapon...but it's still a powerful form of self-defense.
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June 21, 2008, 04:55 PM | #62 |
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.300H&H, Getting those 7 torso hits against a fighting & moving target while under the stress of a life and death situation according to statistics is very difficult. Here in lies the problem with micro calibers. Bad guys turn, bob, weave, run, charge, and many many more unexpected maneuvers that are very difficult to predict much less practice for. Your frontal torso view might suddenly disappear into an arm and side with the slightest of bad guy movement. Now you have half the size target and twice the required penetration to get to vitals.
Theoretically 7 rapid hits to the torso is going to cause a serious problem for the BG as will precision hits. They are just statistically hard to achieve reliably given the variables. |
June 21, 2008, 04:57 PM | #63 |
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As WildAlaska has said before, and I agree with, the .32(or any decent mouse) is more than enough for the average citizen in everyday, average situations...and small caliber hits to the face at arms length will do a lot of damage(Ken, I'll take a 3X, thank you)
Not that there is anything wrong with a bigger cal. either, it's just not mandatory for the average CCW'er |
June 21, 2008, 05:23 PM | #64 | ||
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June 21, 2008, 10:56 PM | #65 |
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32 S&w
That"s what I've been carrying since I registered the gun yesterday. It is a very old five shot H&R revolver that belonged to my mother's deceased uncle and she gave it to me. I am well aware of the limitations of this pistol but it will have to do until I can turn loose the coin for something better. I have a Browning 7 shot semi 380 but it is too heavy to suit me for pocket carry and I have yet to find a holster that has what I want off the rack. Once sweatshirt weather gets here I should have a nice Blackhawk holster for my Beretta 92FS and that's what I'll carry. Since I have spent 57 years of my life unarmed, that little 32 S&W I consider a big improvement!
Last edited by Sportdog; June 22, 2008 at 10:26 PM. Reason: spelling |
June 21, 2008, 11:35 PM | #66 | ||
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From a book used in California for CCW class study:
Quote:
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http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=18 Sometimes a .22 is not enough. Sometimes three hits with a .44 magnum, or .357 magnum are not enough. All things considered, I'd rather be holding the magnum.
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June 22, 2008, 12:52 AM | #67 |
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Figures it would be used in California!
Bullet impacts don't "blow you off steps, spin you around, or move your body a foot in the snow." I'm sure it must have seemed that way, but physics says otherwise. |
June 22, 2008, 02:44 AM | #68 |
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Anecdotal... I know of a shooting some years ago that went like this: A drug dealer in a housing project was approached by a 'customer' <another thug>and as they were exchanging a $20 bill/crack, the 'customer' whipped out a .22 mouse and with one quick shot to the dealers head... instantly ended the dealer's life. Nasty. I'll agree the little .22 mouseguns...aren't the optimum choice...but they can be very lethal.
Whenever I practiced/plinked with my .22 Bobcat, it was hard in a sense 'not' to pop off almost the entire magazine ie. it's a gun that's so easy to control...it begs for rapid multishots... It's a gun for close quarters, to be pulled out quickly and easily from total concealment. It's not a gun to be used in a gunfight where one is trying to suppress fire , shoot through, or knock down something. Its easy concealment, however, gives it a great tactical viability. Personally I think a .38 snubbie is hard to beat - and is the most practical self defense handgun. However, a mouse .22 is a lot better than nothing. One thing I don't like about the little mouse .22's - is that they can jam, and I see a lot of'em<moreso in years past than today ie. there seems to be more avid women shooters today> given to women and newbie shooters...as a primary selfdefense gun. A lot of these shooters never really practiced using the guns...and seemed to just stash them away...and I would be concerned about their being able to really use the guns effectively in a real selfdefense situation. |
June 22, 2008, 02:54 AM | #69 |
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Anecdotal... I know of a shooting some years ago that went like this: A drug dealer in a housing project was approached by a 'customer' <another thug>and as they were exchanging a $20 bill/crack, the 'customer' whipped out a .22 mouse and with one quick shot to the dealers head... instantly ended the dealer's life. Nasty. I'll agree the little .22 mouseguns...aren't the optimum choice...but they can be very lethal.
Whenever I practiced/plinked with my .22 Bobcat, it was hard in a sense 'not' to pop off almost the entire magazine ie. it's a gun that's so easy to control...it begs for rapid multishots... It's a gun for close quarters, to be pulled out quickly and easily from total concealment. It's not a gun to be used in a gunfight where one is trying to suppress fire , shoot through, or knock down something. Its easy concealment, however, gives it a great tactical viability. Personally I think a .38 snubbie is hard to beat - and is the most practical self defense handgun. However, a mouse .22 is a lot better than nothing. One thing I don't like about the little mouse .22's - is that they can jam, and I see a lot of'em<moreso in years past than today ie. there seems to be more avid women shooters today> given to women and newbie shooters...as a primary selfdefense gun. A lot of these shooters never really practiced using the guns...and seemed to just stash them away...and I would be concerned about their being able to really use the guns effectively in a real selfdefense situation. |
June 22, 2008, 08:46 AM | #70 | |
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Assassination (as in your drug dealer story) is much different than self defense especially when behind in the reactionary curve.
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I make the sacrifice of learning tactics, practicing them, practicing with my firearm, and going through the trouble of getting permitted only to carry something that is "a lot better than nothing". Carrying a weapon which isn't consistently capable of doing what needs to be done to stop a bad guy given the dynamics of a self defense situation is akin to a father doing his job half arsed IMO. One thing is resorting to a mouse as the only option available. Its totally another to voluntarily choose them as primary when bigger is available....IMO. |
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June 22, 2008, 09:43 AM | #71 |
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"I could quickly pop off 7 rounds from my little .22 Beretta Bobcat...and I can't imagine anyone standing on the receiving end within 10 ft. who could withstand such a nasty unloading. Imagine 7 quick .22/.25 acp shots at close range to one's torso. That's nasty and very lethal. It might not be the optimum primary weapon...but it's still a powerful form of self-defense."
Thats the real world. Ask a coroner what .22lr com wounds are really like.
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June 22, 2008, 11:53 AM | #72 |
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We all know that ALL firearms are lethal.
Head shots do NOT make up a large percentage of intial hits in a dynamic situation. Geesh! Remind me to not eat any more cheese lest I become comfortable with the mickey mouse genre of handguns...
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June 22, 2008, 01:44 PM | #73 |
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On the other hand ... I recall a few years ago the shooting death of Trooper Mark Coates. He was involved in a traffic stop. The BG pulled a .25 habdgun and the trooper took one hit. He emptied his .357 magnum revolver into the BG. Today that BG sits in prison, while many morn the loss of Trooper Mark Coates.
One hit with a .25 results in death .. six hits with a .357 magnum produces only injury. I do not even try to understand it.
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June 22, 2008, 03:13 PM | #74 |
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"I do not even try to understand it."
It's easy. It's all about placement.
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June 22, 2008, 03:14 PM | #75 | ||
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