Last ditch Arisaka?

[cody1]

I was just wondering if an Arisaka type 99 i believe I inherited was a last ditch rifle or not. As far as I can see it has a chrome barrel but Im not for sure. The rear site flips up but doesnt have the airplane sites on the side. Sadly it has been sporterized so I cant tell anything about the butt or stock. Does anyone know or have a rough guess?

I have pictures posted here:

http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/ha...y/30-06?page=1

Thanks for your help.

[jimmy lowboy]

I can't get pics to stay up long enough to see any details. As far as Ii know, a welded safety knob, a wooden buttplate, fixed solid rear peep sight and a front sight without guard wings will all be very strong evidence of "last ditch" issue rifles.

[tahunua001]

I do not believe so,
on the last ditch rifles the checkering on the safety knob were the first things to go, yours has beautifully checkered safety knob.

I can't tell from your picture which series it is. the symbol to the left of what kindof looks like the rebel insignia from star wars is the series number, getting a good view of that would help narrow down production year but for now, which what I can tell it's a regular wartime production t99 that's been converted to 3006.

FWIW: the AA sights were often removed by both Japanese and US soldiers that captured them as they felt that they were worthless gadgets that just added weight, same thing with the dust covers and monopods, that's why there are so few with those still intact and that's why the absence of those features are not a clear way of identifying last ditch rifles.

[cody1]

Jimmy
The front site and stock/butt/forearm are all aftermarket. The rear site can move up and down so its not fixed. How can I tell if the safety knob is welded?

[cody1]

ok thanks tahunua001. i have to check tonight though because i think the serials might be different on the bolt

[tahunua001]

true the bolt may be a replacement but it might have also been replaced as part of the sporterizing process. the only thing that will tell for sure when your gun was made is the series number on the receiver.

also I would like to point out that if your rifle is indeed rechambered for 30-06 as the library name suggests, it's going to be overbore as they used the original barrel and 7.7 jap is a 310-312 diameter bore while 30-06 is 308, accuracy will probably be quite poor unless you home load and start putting 303 brit bullets in 30-06 casings.

[cody1]

What does overbore mean? would a 30-06 bullet be too large or small for the bore? And it has 30-06 stamped on it so I would assume it was modified.

[tahunua001]

overbore, and I might not even be using the term correctly but how I define it as your guns bore is larger than the diameter of the bullet passing through it.

basically how your guns conversion to 30-06 works is that they took the original barrel, chambered for 7.7x57mm and took a lathe to it and bored out the chamber to accommodate a 7.62x63mm casing. however since a lathe can only make holes bigger and can't make them smaller your barrel bore is still 7.7mm even though you're shooting a 7.62mm bullet out of it. even though 30-06 is a larger case, it's a smaller bullet.

in inches, 30-06 is a .308 diameter bullet but your barrel is designed to shoot .311 bullets. the 0.003 inches difference wont cause any serious safety issues but it will prevent the rifling(especially with an arisaka as they used microgroove rifling) from properly engaging the sides of the bullet and stabilizing it in flight, making it less accurate.

[cody1]

so basically it would be like shooting a 30-06 bullet through a smooth bore instead of a rifled bore. it makes sense.

another question i have is that i think it has a chrome barrel, but is there any easy way to tell? it was stored in a damp basement for 40 years and the absence of rust in the bore leads me to believe that it is chrome and it looks shiny when i look through it. i have a chrome barrel norinco sks and by looking at the bore its still difficult for me to tell.

[James K]

That is not a "last ditch" rifle; It has the rounded bolt knob, the checkered safety and the normal rear sight. And it almost certainly has a chromed barrel, which is why the barrel is still in good shape.

Many thousands of those rifles were converted to .30-'06 after WWII and proved capable of "minute of deer" accuracy. Generally the larger bullet would "upset" or expand under pressure enough to fill the rifling.

The U.S. Army even converted some Type 99 Arisakas to .30-'06 for Korean reserve units during the Korean War.

Contrary to what has been written, the Type 99 is a strong rifle and can easily handle .30-'06 pressures, so safety is not a concern (although an individual rifle may be unsafe for some reason).

Jim

[cody1]

Thanks for your help. I dont want to seem down on my terminology but is "minute of deer" accuracy good or bad?

[James K]

One way to measure the accuracy of a rifle is the size of the group in "minutes of angle", which works out at about 1 MOA = 1 inch at 100 yards, 2 inches at 200 yards, and so on.

Since it is commonly accepted that a rifle that shoots around a 3" group at 100 yards has adequate accuracy for deer hunting, folks got to calling a 3"-4" group "minute of deer", meaning that the rifle was accurate enough for deer hunting, although nothing to brag about.

Jim

[tahunua001]

what Jim said, 'Minute Of Angle' is the term that is most colloquially used to measure the accuracy of a rifle, if it can throw 3 bullets into a 1 inch circle at 100 yards then it is MOA.

some jokesters like to brag about the accuracy of their guns by stating that their gun is 'minute of soda can' meaning that while it may not be the most accurate rifle ever built it still hits a soda can every shot at 100 yards.

some other common witty terms thrown out about military rifles are:
minute of bad guy
minute of tour bus
minute of tree trunk
minute of milk jug
the list goes one an one.

minute of deer is pretty much what jim layed it out to be, it wont be winning any competition shooting matches but it will serve well enough to kill a few deer.

[cody1]

Typically is an arisaka type 99 comparable in (performance/accuracy/reliability) with a mosin nagant 91/30?

[tahunua001]

typically A 91/30 mosin nagant dooesn't hold a candle to an arisaka type 99.

the type 99:
1. fires a stronger round.
2. is generally more accurate
3. has a much smoother action
4. has much more refined production process(except with last ditch rifles)
5. is built to tighter tolerances so less dirt gets inside the magazine well and bolt tracks.

the cock on close is a love it or hate it thing but I personally love cock on close designs like the Arisaka, swedish mauser and enfield. you'll notice that the last half inch or so of forward motion feels like you are pressing against a spring, that is actually the firing pin being cocked. it makes for more fluid motion and keeps you from slamming the bolt forward during high stress operation such as firefights or followup shots while hunting.

the arisaka is also a little more bulky than the 91/30 width wise but since yours is a sporterized version you won't have to worry about that.


EDIT: the Arisaka is also safer for conversions as it has a much stronger action than the mosin nagant, I can't remember ever reading about anyone converting a mosin nagant to anything that held up very well.

also the Arisaka has a safety, the mosin nagant has a decocker. fighting the firing pin spring on a mosin nagant during decocking/recocking is a lot easier said than done.

[James K]

I could probably take issue with all of those statements, but I will settle for one. The M-N does have a safety, though it is awkward and hard to use. To engage it, pull back the cocking piece and turn it to the left, resting it on the receiver. (It is not a decocker like the Carcano; the firing pin remains cocked, but retracted from the sear.)

In practice, the safety probably was not much used, as Russian military discipline called for the rifle to remain unloaded until in the immediate presence of the enemy, in other words until it would be needed.

Jim

[tahunua001]

interesting... guess I learned something today... everyone I know uses the knob like the decocker on the springfield....

[cody1]

Thanks for all your help guys. Are there any other random things or cool facts or tips I should know about it?

[Magnum Wheel Man]

the type 99:
1. fires a stronger round.

hmmm... never looked at the pressures, but thought the X54 Rimmed was roughly equal to the 30-06, I'd find it "unusual" for the 6.5 or 7.7Jap to have more power ???

not dissing the Arisaka, as I have a carbine with a MUM, ( mines a 6.5 ) & will be reloading for it this summer... & don't have a Mosin yet...

[RedBowTies88]

7.62x54r rounds generally produce more muzzle energy the 7.7 jap.


As far as which one operates on a higher pressure im not sure offhand.

[tahunua001]

going off of what is in my sierra book, the general issue 54R load is a 148 grain bullet travelling roughly 2600 FPS.

conversely the 7.7 jap load was a 184 grain projectile travelling roughly 2400 FPS.

I can't find any 1 bullet style in those two exact weights but with a 150gr sierra pro hunter at 2600 FPS the muzzle energy is 2250FTLBS.

the same bullet in 180gr at 2400FPS is just over 2300FTLBS so even giving the 54R a handicap, 7.7 still comes out on top for energy.

[James K]

The Japanese did not load the 7.7 to its full potential, probably because the increased recoil would have been hard on the small stature Japanese soldiers.

The 7.62 x 54R as loaded by the Russians, is considerably more powerful, though still not up to the .30-'06 or the even hotter 7.9 Mauser.

Jim