410 metalic brass loads

[chrishughessas]

Hi,
i am looking for data on loads for brass cartridge loading for my 410 saiga semi.
i have looked all over the place and cannot find much data, on the net, in books etc, i must be looking in the wrong place.

I am using magtech 2 1/2 inch brass hulks, also 400 nitro brass hulls and 9.3 by 74r after fireforming.
please does anyone have any data on metallic loads for 410, is there a web site, book or company who does.
i have been in touch with lots of companies like rocky mountain cartridge co
and like but no luck
So fellow loaders can you help out please

i would like to know any tips please etc

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I haven't gotten there yet ( to actually loading them ) but somewhere out there there is plenty of data for those brass cases

one thing I'd be most concerned with, is keeping the shot charge in the cases as they cycle through a semi auto ( I'm looking at doing them for side by side double barrels, so the glued in shot card (or whatever ) needs to withstand the recoil of the 1st shot... but cycling through a semi auto will likely test your "shot retention system" & may require something better than hot glue ???

personally mine are going into 444 Marlin cases

[chrishughessas]

hi,
thanks for answering, i have been told to use nail varnish to glue top card in
i will keep looking for data on this topic, will try it on side by side first, then test it on pump action and use in semi auto.
cheers chris

[DG45]

I'm using 2 5/8 inch 12 gauge brass shells from Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co. in my old single barrel. I haven't tried them in my auto because I've heard the same stories you have about the overshot card loosening up under recoil.

All my information concerns 12 gauge shells, not 410, but heres something that may translate to 410 too. When I was trying to figure out what kind of brass shells to buy, I was told by others on this forum more knowledgeable than me that if I used Magtech extruded brass shells, I should use 11 gauge components in them; i.e., overshot cards and nitro cards, but if I used RMC lathed brass shells, which were thicker-walled I'd be able to use all 12 gauge components. On their advice, I went with the more expensive RMC's ($65 for 10) for that reason alone and am glad I did. Ballistic Products 12 gauge components (nitro cards, pre-lubed fiber wads, overshot cards) fit these RMC brass shells perfectly. I couldn't ask for a better fit. I don't think I'd even need to glue the overshot card in to use them in my single barrel, but I do. (I use Duco cement. I was told by others on this forum that its the best stuff I could get for holding the overshot card in, and so far I've been well satisfied with it. I'm pretty sure it would stand up to the recoil of my Remington Model 11 too, but as I said, I haven't yet tried it.)

The thin walls of extruded brass hulls like the Magtech hulls would worry me if I was doing this with a 410 shotgun because I wouldn't know what size components would actually fit - and I'm convinced that using components that fit perfectly is critical to the performance of a handloaded shotshell. So, personally I'd go with the lathed brass. They're expensive, but should last you a lifetime if you take care of them, don't step on them, etc. I was happy with Rocky Mountain Cartridge Company. The only problem I had with them was it took me 3 months to get my brass hulls, because they needed to get enough orders to make a run. They were very upfront about it though, and didn't charge me until they actually manufactured the hulls.

[chrishughessas]

Hi
well thanks for info on 410 and you must have read my mind because 12 bore metalic reloading was next as i have just got magtech 2 1/2 inch brass shells.
well will read your post overnight again and again and will say more tomorrow.
thanking you for your help
chris

[DG45]

I found this on the internet and although it refers to commercial ammunition, I think it answers about half of your handload question. This should give you an idea of the shot size and weights you'll need in your handloads. Now you just need to know what kind of powder and how much of it you need to safely push those loads.

My guess is that powder manufacturers will have that data downloadable from their websites.

I'm handloading brass shells because I'm trying to preserve an old gun while keeping it useful. That means I'm interested in less powerful, vintage type loads. I'm not sure what your purposes are, but they may not be the same as mine.

I use a black powder substitute for some shooting, and am going to be using old reliable Red Dot powder (I think the whole name is "Alliant Red Dot") for my "vintage" smokeless loads. I had to buy a pound of it at a gun show because I couldn't find anyone carrying it locally, and the HazMat fee for shipping an internet purchase was the same for my one pound of powder as it would have been for 25 pounds.

I see you're from England. Cheerio and all that. Click on this the hyperlink: Hope this helps. DG

http://www.chuckhawks.com/410bore.htm

[DG45]

I looked into this a little further. Check out the hyperlink at the bottom of this post. This should give you an idea of powder requirements IF YOU USE ALLIANT POWDER. Other powder companies should have similar data for their own powders and load recipes. DO NOT ASSUME THAT ALL SMOKELESS POWDERS ARE THE SAME. THEY ARE NOT. This Alliant load data may only be safe to use with the particular powder that Alliant specifies, and with the particular component. Thats the only assumption I would make if I were you. I'd follow the recipes exactly. If you use another company's powder, I'd reccommend that you also use their load recipes.

None of this specifically addresses brass shotshells, but LATHED brass shells are pretty strong. However, I don't know how strong your gun is. I wouldn't hand load one of the high pressure recipes in my old gun, certainly I wouldn't if I was using solid brass shotshells instead of the type of hull specified in the recipe. Anyway, here's the hyperlink to Alliants recipes: Once it comes up, just click on the place near the top right that says "see new recipes", then keep going through the pages until you come to 410 load recipes. Good luck to you!

http://www.alliantpowder.com/

[sc928porsche]

Shot shells are now made of plastic and paper with usually a brass "head". Neither plastic or paper will withstand the pressure of brass. I wouldnt worry much about the thickness of the brass magtech shotshell being able to wistand the pressures of the load.

[DG45]

Hey, sc29porsche, Roll Tide!

I'm not sure there'll be any problem with the 410 magtechs, but I'm not sure there won't be either, because:

1. I've read that 12 gauge extruded brass Magtech's require 11 guage components. Apparently, that's because the walls of extruded brass shells are thinner than the plastic shotshell walls that 12 gauge components are manufactured to fit; therefore 11 guage components fit a 12 gauge Magtech shell better. I'm not saying this is true, its just what I've read on the forum, and I suspect its true.

2. So, does a 410 bore Magtech shell also need larger components than a 410 plastic shell would? If so, what size components? Theres no 409 bore components that I know of.

3. If standard 410 components won't fit as snugly in a 410 brass shell as they do in a 410 plastic shell, then there are bound to be differences in pressures, velocities, etc. from whats posted in the powder manufacturers load recipes, because those recipes are based on the performance of that load in a plastic shotshell in which 410 components do fit.

4.Would the difference be enough to be dangerous? I don't know. I'd be worried about it in a gun as old as mine, but in a new Saiga??? Dunno.

5. Anyway, that's why I'd shoot the lowest powered loads I could get by with until I became more knowledgeable about what I was doing.

If he was using the thicker-walled RMC LATHED brass hulls, the 410 components would fit and I wouldn't be concerned about their strength.

PS I hope he understands that a plastic shells length of, lets say, 2 and 1/2 inches refers to its length when it is open; i.e., BEFORE it is loaded with shot, powder, wadding and cards and then crimped. That same shell will be considerably shorter than 2 and 1/2 inches long after it has been loaded and crimped. Since brass shells can't be crimped, using a powder manufacturers exact reccommendations for a load that calls for a plastic hull will leave about 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch of a brass hull empty. Thats not a serious problem, but it just looks WRONG.

[chrishughessas]

thanks dg45 and Sc928porche

i do use clays, red dot and alliant powders, i always start off loading low say
3/4 of what safe load is and work up.
rocky mountain cartridge co in cody wyoming i think said they would not sent brass to england, why its only a common componant, i have asked them again and waiting for reply.
As for why i am loading and using 410, its a calibre i have never used in my life and i find it intresting, i shoot only targets and like reloading and like ak 47.
dont think i will be elephant shooting with 410 shotgun more fancy my chancers with 400 nitro rifle, run baby run the elephant is after me.
well i still have not found any info relating to 410 brass on net or any books.
i will look on sites you have said.
anyways thanks for all your help

[zippy13]

I've been loading .410 shotshells for almost 40-years. I started with the old school paper hulls with the individual card and fiber wads with a fixed base press. I now load plastic hulls with one-piece wads in a progressive press. Even under the best of conditions, .410's are much less forgiving during reloading than 12-ga shells.

There is no way I'd consider loading any brass hulls that weren't 100% compatible with the modern one piece plastic wads. It's going to be a big enough aggravation just setting and securing your over-shot wads, you don't need any more. I don't have a selection of wads for comparison; but, try to find the ones with the longest skirt. Or, if the long skirts won't seal you over-sized brass hulls, you may have to trim the skirt and use a custom over powder wad below the shot cup.

The selection of powders appropriate for the .410-bore has expanded in recent years. You might consider: Hodgdon's Lil'Gun or H110 (my favorite for performance but a little dirty); Winchester's 296; IMR's 4227; or Alliant's 2400 or 410. Green Dot is too fast for .410 applications.

And, to complicate things, you want to shoot these in an autoloader -- good luck! I'd use them in a SxS or U/O so I'd be sure to get my brass hulls back.

Please, keep us posted on your progress.

[chrishughessas]

hi
the firm who say they wont post brass is hoening big bore south and not rocky mountain cartridge co, who are repling to my e mail.
as i say some firms will, but thats that.
cheers chris

[chrishughessas]

hi
right i have got plastic wads that seals great and nitro card and over shot card,
when i have peace and quite i will load some and try, all the powders you mention i have heard of.
will try and reload plastic cartridgers first for a practice as they are small,
i have got an old lee loader for 410, which they dont make now, which a friend sent me from the good old USA, god bless America and i still live here,
best send for the removals van and book a flight
will let you know how i get on
cheers chris

[DG45]

Here are a couple more hyperlinks.

1. On the first one, a lot of time is wasted talking about how to make brass hulls for 410. Then the guy went back and added something at the very top of the page which in effect says "Magtech makes these things now anyway". So just skip down the page to Readers Questions and investigate some of the interesting links.

2. The second hyperlink is to a company called Lolo. They sell reasonably inexpensive tools for handloading shotshells. I guess they're still in business.

http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html

http://www.lolosportinggoods.com/reloading.html

[chrishughessas]

thanks for that
endtimers looks good and guy who wrote it says seal over shot card with nail varnish, as its waterproof and shatters when fired.
other address i cannot make head or tail of, so i have emailed them and waiting for reply.
i have also got reply from rocky mountain cartridge co and they will supply thicker walled cartridgers than magtech, which must be better.
cheers chris

[DG45]

Yeah, the RMC hulls are definitely better.

Again, all my experience has been with 12 guage. I don't know much about 410. But I'd hate to have to find components that would correctly fit a thin walled Magtech brass shell.

I'm a little worried about you using uncrimped brass shells in an automatic shotgun. I've heard that the recoil from firing one shell can loosen the shot in the shells in the magazine. If that happened you might have loose shot rolling around in your magazine, chamber, and God forbid, barrel. In order to prevent that, you're going to have to really have something strong holding those overshot cards in. I've been told that Duco cement (green tube) is the best, but I don't know that from personal experience.

I think that Lolo hyperlink that you couldn't make head nor tail of just makes hand reloading tools for priming, depriming, and tamping the shot and wads in.

[chrishughessas]

my saiga 410 has little recoil, unlike my 12 bores, which give a kick.
it hardly moves when fired,which i was supprised about when i shot it last week, so it does not have recoil.
i shot 25 skeet plastic cases and it aims good.
430 and 450 cards should fit for overshot cards.
i like these little problems to overcome, it makes it more enjoyable, but at the same time safety comes first.
cheers chris

[DG45]

I don't know anything about Saiga guns, but I know that most people don't use brass shells in automatic shotguns. I assume the reason they don't is they fear the shot coming loose in the gun, but maybe they're also afraid the weight of the shells will cause difficulties either in the automated loading of their guns chamber from its magazine, or are afraid that the heavy brass shells won't eject properly.

I realize its none of my business, but I'm curious about why you want to use brass shells in your automatic gun instead of standard plastic hulls. I take it that the SAS in your screen name means you are into survivalist techniques?

[chrishughessas]

Hi,
i wondered about using brass in my 410 because i like to make things works and i used to be in the armed forces and we used brass in our automatic weapons ie 7.62 slr and sa80 .223 which they use now.
i do know alot about survival but sas is for sex and shooting my two best topics.
cheers chris

[DG45]

Lovely topics, S and S. I agree.

I've expended all of my modest knowledge of handloading brass shells at this point and can only wish you good luck from here on in.

I hope you'll start a new thread when you've got everything worked out just right, and let us know if its all met your expectations. And, if possible post some pictures of your Saiga gun and your brass 410 ammo and show us how you do what you do.

I've enjoyed it. DG45.

[chrishughessas]

Hi,
well thanks for the info, just give me about two weeks and i will let you know how i get on and with some pics too.
Any info i will pass on and i will send you a pm too.
It was nice talking to you and have a nice time.
cheers chris in england.
(two weeks in because the range i will use i can only get on saturdays).

[Gunn Smithy]

Ballistic Products http://www.ballisticproducts.com/ Not only tells you what of their components you need to look at (in terms of gauges, 410 being 36 gauge and the lower you go in the shell, the smaller gauge you use, vs. the top of the shell needing a larger 45 caliber wad). Be real careful about the specific loads given as some are meant for the Judge and its like only. Don't forget, the Judge is being shot through a 45 caliber tube. If that were to be shot out of a regular 410 shotgun barrel, I really don't know the outcome of such an attempt. I wouldn't want to be the one pulling the trigger let's just say. There are a lot of existing (other rifle caliber dies) that can be used in loading the brass 410 hull and although a bit more expensive that a regular set of metallic dies, cheaper than anything else being offered at this time. Lane reloading offers a kit for 410 loading kind of like the old Lee Loader without the nostalgia value in the price. It is quite the purchase for plastic shot loads, but for the brass loads you are basically getting a deprimer and primer and a rod to stuff wads into the shell. You have to pay extra for a piece of steel with a hole in it serving as a resizer and a hinge type of thing that speeds the priming a very little.

Of the things that work: A number 5 Lee shell holder works both for the press shell holder and their priming shell holder. A Remington 7mm magnum resizer die with its depriming parts removed works perfectly for a crimp die for the hull. A really nice roll crimp to hold in your over shot wad. Be careful not to go too far. Done with just enough to do the job, the shell will have enough power to iron out the brass to do it all over again. Both Lee and Lyman offer a universal case mouth belling die that can be picked through to get the right insert to adjust for belling the brass and that works great. Sorry, I forgot the caliber, but Lee offers a factory crimp die that I use to keep the hull in its sized condition while you are stuffing all of your wads/load ingredients in without bulging the case at all. A Lee Carbide sizing die for 444 Marlin is the exact diameter as the 410 brass except the die is too short not to mess with the mouth of the case, but it's an easy fix. I simply cut the die, 1.25" above the mouth of the case. It's all threads at that point so it's easy to adjust to your press and the carbide ring is doing all the work anyway. I did make a modified shell holder extension to make the top of the unit just a flat piece of steel. That way I can bottom out the case into the sizing die and get all of the case resized. Then to remove I simply tap it out with a short piece of 1/4" round rod. A lot of dies to remember and they all will be stamped with incorrect information on the die. Who'd think that 7mm mag would do anything for a 410 hull? Oh yeah, on the factory crimp die being used as a hull steadier for wad loading, You'll need one or two (if you mess up the first one) fine threaded 1/2" nuts and washers for same. The collet of the die operates off of the shell holder touching the base of the die. With the nut and washer loosely fitting around the brass case, the collet will not start to contract at the last minute and crush the case right in the middle of the case and ruining it forever. Instead it activates the collet portion of the die much sooner so it won't impart any sort of crimp at all on the brass, but just keeping the loading portion of the die (the part that has the bullets or shot or combination of heavy, do damage types of things are located). I found that one of each worked for me (one washer and one nut in fine thread 1/2"). If you get the coarse thread then you'll have to drill it out a bit to allow the casing to pass unimpeded through the nut.

I have an enexpensive Lee 41 caliber bullet mold that I'll be drilling out the base a bit and place one of many spacers made for the newly drilled out portion of the mold and having a large enough hole through it to allow molten lead to fill the nose of the bullet to one lube groove past the crimp groove. This bullet nose will allow me a more traditional final loading and crimping to be done with my Redding performance crimp die. It's a straight pipe with no other parts to get in the way of the bullet or any other part of the load. Bullet nose will have to be seated prior to crimping and after I have what looks like a very large rifle round that has around a 70 grain bullet nose followed by sub bore 70 grain disks contained in a Ballistic Products wad. I'm making the disks purposefully off center of gravity so that even at short distances the disks will separate and cause a wider pattern than if they were all symmetrical and stacked in a row.

I'm now stuck with trying to find another box of empty hulls in 410 to destroy while adjusting and setting up the final dies I have to get ready. I tell you it's whatever part I'm looking for at the time that is what every company happens to be out of stock. Smithy.

[Clark]

I have modified 7.62x54r brass to shoot in the 410.