The "UPS STORE" is not #1 in customer service - Page 2

WV_gunner · September 26, 2012, 01:29 PM

To be completely honest, I'd be very scared to ever ship anything. I've had several packages delivered to me, some drivers claim they couldn't find my house. One time I watched the guy park, get out of the truck, then back in, and drive off while I was outside. He even waved. Had to drive an hour to the nearest hub to pick my package up. I've also had stuff literally thrown on the concrete porch. I've also worked in Nashville FedEx hub, when I worked there we were the fastest hub. I was always worried about stuff. And I stacked everything as perfect as it could get. I know nothing was ever broke by me. But I worked with guys that would stand at the door of the trailer and throw stuff to the front. Packages would be all the way to the back but only be piled up 2 or 3 feet and he'd just throw them in there. So, I'm always very weary of ordering anything. I know there's too many idiots. There's not enough bubble wrap.

Willie Sutton · September 26, 2012, 03:19 PM

"However, to address your concern, the redirect link in the Black Powder forum has been made permanent, instead of the normal 1 week duration"

Mike,

My concern is that the reply I posted to the Black Powder area regarding not disclosing contents is appropriate there, and is suggesting breaking the law if read in another forum where there is no realization of the change in context.

I do not want to be seen as suggesting any illegality in shipping MODERN firearms by common carrier, and what I suggested is perfectly legal when applied to black powder "guns". When placed in a black powder forum, and discussing the OP's particular replica, the context was clear. Once the thread was moved here the context was no longer clear at all and places my earlier reply in a bad light.

Regards,

Willie

.

**Mike Irwin** · September 26, 2012, 03:39 PM

Uhm... As I understand the law, there is no requirement that the shipper be notified that the package contains a firearm, nor is the package to be identified as containing a firearm.

UPS and FedEx internal policies are that the package have an "adult signature required" label (but apparently that doesn't extend to their delivery people, who in my experience don't often worry about that nicety), must be shipped next day, and that you must verbally notify the clerk that you're shipping a firearm.

But again, those are the shipper's internal policies, NOT Federal law.

MLeake · September 26, 2012, 03:44 PM

Frank Ettin has indicated in separate threads that failure to notify a common carrier of a "firearm" actually is a violation of the law, IIRC, Mike.

carguychris · September 26, 2012, 04:26 PM

Mike & MLeake,

I believe y'all are both right about notification. It depends on the recipient.

Here's what the law says, from 27 CFR § 478.31:

Quote:

Delivery by common or contract carrier. (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped

(emphasis mine)

IOW shipments to a FFL are exempt from the notification requirement because the recipient is "a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector".

[EDIT] Paragraph deleted, need to do some more research...

Please note:

None of this applies to BP and antique guns because they are not "firearms" under federal law.
If you misrepresent or fail to report what a package contains, a common carrier may refuse to honor shipment insurance, regardless of what federal firearm transfer law says. Insurance is a different ballgame entirely.

Mandatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.

This is not official legal advice. Caveat emptor and YMMV.

Master Blaster 2 · September 26, 2012, 05:11 PM

In the state of Illinois black powder firearms must go thru a FFL.

**Mike Irwin** · September 26, 2012, 06:08 PM

Ok, as I read that, it seems to say to me that if you are shipping to one of those recipients you do not have to notify.

But... It also seems to me that shipping a firearm to ano unlicensed recipient is illegal, so the notification issue is a bit moot.

A criminal is not going to announce a shipment of a fire arm in any event and he is not required to do so per supreme court findings on fifth amendment grounds.

Regardless, a number of staff have discussed this and we all feel that this forum is the proper place for this discussion.

carguychris · September 27, 2012, 08:57 AM

Quote:

But... It also seems to me that shipping a firearm to [an] unlicensed recipient is illegal, so the notification issue is a bit moot.

That is my understanding as well.

Zekest Crowe · September 27, 2012, 09:14 AM

Returned a fire arm to Ruger. They sent me a UPS shipping lable and told me do not take it to a UPS Store, take it ONLY to a UPS Customer Service Center.

UPS Stores are the worst of the worst. Always staffed with three to six empty headed people who could not even get hired at McDonalds who will gladly sell you a cardboard box for $5.00 and ask if you need any shipping supplies.

Shipping supplies, well yes, how about competent personnel?

carguychris · September 27, 2012, 07:51 PM

Quote:

They sent me a UPS shipping lable and told me do not take it to a UPS Store, take it ONLY to a UPS Customer Service Center... UPS Stores are the worst of the worst. Always staffed with three to six empty headed people...

AFAIK UPS does not allow "The UPS Store" locations to handle firearms, presumably because they are not directly controlled by UPS; the stores are franchises of Mail Boxes Etc., and the hiring and supervision of the employees is handled by the franchisee.

Since UPS has no way to directly supervise the way the stores are run, IMHO it's understandable why they don't want the aforementioned empty-headed people accepting gun shipments.

Personally, I have also generally been very unimpressed by The UPS Store, and IMHO they give customers a bad impression of the UPS brand, but UPS's marketing department didn't ask me.

laytonj1 · September 27, 2012, 09:53 PM

It is not federal law to notify a common carrier you are shipping a handgun unless you are sending it to a non FFL.

See last paragraph in the letter from the ATF below:

Jim

youngunz4life · September 27, 2012, 09:58 PM

what state are you in? you sound like you were at the same store as me and I am talking about the girl and then guy from the back and the 'go to the hub' bit...everything you mentioned.

anyways, i go to fedex. ups rubbed me the wrong way specifically because the guy told me to go to another ups location and that he didn't want to ship it. it seemed personal...not ups policy. usps NO but UPS and FedEx are supposed to be YES. fedex never had an issue

youngunz4life · September 27, 2012, 10:01 PM

as for notifying them...no idea. I always let someone know I have an unloaded firearm being shipped without any ammo. mailing a bottle of wine around Christmas time with the notification thingee gets tricky

MLeake · September 27, 2012, 10:05 PM

Mike Irwin and laytonj1, you are probably correct in most cases.

OTOH, blanket statements are dangerous things. Here is one example where I think you would both be wrong:

I can ship a firearm to myself in another state. For instance, I could ship to myself, courtesy of my parents, at their house prior to flying down for a visit.

They could legally receive the firearm. They could not legally open the package. They are not Federal licensees.

Meanwhile, in a more general sense, non-notification might not get you in legal trouble (assuming shipping to an FFL), but would probably invalidate any shipping insurance should mishap occur.

laytonj1 · September 27, 2012, 10:11 PM

Quote:

OTOH, blanket statements are dangerous things. Here is one example where I think you would both be wrong:

How's that? In this case the law does require you to notify the carrier or it would be illegal.

Quote:

but would probably invalidate any shipping insurance should mishap occur

Very true. But my point was the law does not require it, only the shippers own policy.

Jim

MLeake · September 27, 2012, 10:17 PM

My point was that the way both you and Mike had worded your previous posts, you made it seem that shipping to a non-licensee was always illegal, so that the notification issue was moot.

If that is not what you meant, you might want to check what you actually wrote, and edit if you wish.

(Since my further point was that there are instances where you could legally ship to a non-licensee, but would then break the law if you did not notify.)

laytonj1 · September 27, 2012, 10:18 PM

Quote:

If that is not what you meant, you might want to check what you actually wrote, and edit if you wish.

Okay, I see where my previous statement could be missunderstood. I meant shipping to a non FFL would be illegal if you did not notify the carrier..I went back and removed it.

Jim

ZeroJunk · September 27, 2012, 10:52 PM

One of the first firearms I shipped USPS I told the post master that it was a firearm and he said he didn't care and didn't want to know.

I shipped a rifle UPS last year for a hunting trip. The counter person asked me if there was any ammo with it, I said yes and they said that was against their policy.
So, they gave me a box cutter and some tape to take the ammo out of the gun case and put it in with the bed roll. Just as courteous as you could ask for.

I'm not sure it isn't a different deal about everywhere you go depending on who happens to be working there.

Newton24b · September 27, 2012, 11:21 PM

dont people still have the ability to have the ups man himself come by in his little brown truck and pic up packages from your front door?

youngunz4life · September 28, 2012, 01:19 PM

Quote:

dont people still have the ability to have the ups man himself come by in his little brown truck and pic up packages from your front door?

yes I can...fedex too....but I have only tried to do it on returns or when they knew I would have to ship something back(like when they send you a new phone they might need old one back and provide label as one example).

I always figured that was the best deal i could get...not sure if they do less regular pickups or not.....

Dfariswheel · September 28, 2012, 07:25 PM

What's often missed in shipping is that when you fill out the shipping form and sign it, you're signing a legal contract.

If you lie and say a package containing a gun contains "machine parts" or something else, you've violated the legal contract.
If the package is lost, stolen, or damaged, the shipper will not give you a dime since you broke the contract.

An easy way out of the far away UPS Depot and the "no guns" UPS store is to simply have UPS pick the package up at your door.

Peptobismol9 · September 29, 2012, 03:05 AM

The way it was put to me, was that they are legally obligated to accept firearms from FFL dealers. However they can refuse service to anyone else wishing to ship firearms. This apparently is regarding all the carriers. Like I said. Just the way it was put to me though.

spodwo · September 29, 2012, 08:24 PM

I don't think that many of you realize that a UPS STORE is a Franchised operation. These, in many instances, were the old Mailboxes etc. So in effect - the policies of UPS stores are not the same as UPS. Because these "stores" are privately owned. Hence they don't accept firearms per their store policy.

When I shipped firearms twice - I got a pre paid package slip via Fed Ex once from Taurus and once from UPS for Beretta.

September 26, 2012, 03:39 PM	#28
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Uhm... As I understand the law, there is no requirement that the shipper be notified that the package contains a firearm, nor is the package to be identified as containing a firearm. UPS and FedEx internal policies are that the package have an "adult signature required" label (but apparently that doesn't extend to their delivery people, who in my experience don't often worry about that nicety), must be shipped next day, and that you must verbally notify the clerk that you're shipping a firearm. But again, those are the shipper's internal policies, NOT Federal law. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 26, 2012, 06:08 PM	#32
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Ok, as I read that, it seems to say to me that if you are shipping to one of those recipients you do not have to notify. But... It also seems to me that shipping a firearm to ano unlicensed recipient is illegal, so the notification issue is a bit moot. A criminal is not going to announce a shipment of a fire arm in any event and he is not required to do so per supreme court findings on fifth amendment grounds. Regardless, a number of staff have discussed this and we all feel that this forum is the proper place for this discussion. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 27, 2012, 09:53 PM	#36
laytonj1 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2005 Posts: 4,443	It is not federal law to notify a common carrier you are shipping a handgun unless you are sending it to a non FFL. See last paragraph in the letter from the ATF below: Jim Last edited by laytonj1; September 27, 2012 at 10:19 PM. Reason: remove statement

September 27, 2012, 09:58 PM	#37
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	pghrich what state are you in? you sound like you were at the same store as me and I am talking about the girl and then guy from the back and the 'go to the hub' bit...everything you mentioned. anyways, i go to fedex. ups rubbed me the wrong way specifically because the guy told me to go to another ups location and that he didn't want to ship it. it seemed personal...not ups policy. usps NO but UPS and FedEx are supposed to be YES. fedex never had an issue __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

September 27, 2012, 10:01 PM	#38
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	ATF as for notifying them...no idea. I always let someone know I have an unloaded firearm being shipped without any ammo. mailing a bottle of wine around Christmas time with the notification thingee gets tricky __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

September 26, 2012, 01:29 PM	#26
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	To be completely honest, I'd be very scared to ever ship anything. I've had several packages delivered to me, some drivers claim they couldn't find my house. One time I watched the guy park, get out of the truck, then back in, and drive off while I was outside. He even waved. Had to drive an hour to the nearest hub to pick my package up. I've also had stuff literally thrown on the concrete porch. I've also worked in Nashville FedEx hub, when I worked there we were the fastest hub. I was always worried about stuff. And I stacked everything as perfect as it could get. I know nothing was ever broke by me. But I worked with guys that would stand at the door of the trailer and throw stuff to the front. Packages would be all the way to the back but only be piled up 2 or 3 feet and he'd just throw them in there. So, I'm always very weary of ordering anything. I know there's too many idiots. There's not enough bubble wrap.

September 26, 2012, 03:19 PM	#27
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	"However, to address your concern, the redirect link in the Black Powder forum has been made permanent, instead of the normal 1 week duration" Mike, My concern is that the reply I posted to the Black Powder area regarding not disclosing contents is appropriate there, and is suggesting breaking the law if read in another forum where there is no realization of the change in context. I do not want to be seen as suggesting any illegality in shipping MODERN firearms by common carrier, and what I suggested is perfectly legal when applied to black powder "guns". When placed in a black powder forum, and discussing the OP's particular replica, the context was clear. Once the thread was moved here the context was no longer clear at all and places my earlier reply in a bad light. Regards, Willie .

September 26, 2012, 03:44 PM	#29
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Frank Ettin has indicated in separate threads that failure to notify a common carrier of a "firearm" actually is a violation of the law, IIRC, Mike.

September 26, 2012, 05:11 PM	#31
Master Blaster 2 Junior member Join Date: May 29, 2011 Posts: 895	In the state of Illinois black powder firearms must go thru a FFL.

September 27, 2012, 09:14 AM	#34
Zekest Crowe Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Location: WA Posts: 36	Returned a fire arm to Ruger. They sent me a UPS shipping lable and told me do not take it to a UPS Store, take it ONLY to a UPS Customer Service Center. UPS Stores are the worst of the worst. Always staffed with three to six empty headed people who could not even get hired at McDonalds who will gladly sell you a cardboard box for $5.00 and ask if you need any shipping supplies. Shipping supplies, well yes, how about competent personnel?

September 27, 2012, 10:05 PM	#39
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Mike Irwin and laytonj1, you are probably correct in most cases. OTOH, blanket statements are dangerous things. Here is one example where I think you would both be wrong: I can ship a firearm to myself in another state. For instance, I could ship to myself, courtesy of my parents, at their house prior to flying down for a visit. They could legally receive the firearm. They could not legally open the package. They are not Federal licensees. Meanwhile, in a more general sense, non-notification might not get you in legal trouble (assuming shipping to an FFL), but would probably invalidate any shipping insurance should mishap occur.

September 27, 2012, 10:17 PM	#41
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	My point was that the way both you and Mike had worded your previous posts, you made it seem that shipping to a non-licensee was always illegal, so that the notification issue was moot. If that is not what you meant, you might want to check what you actually wrote, and edit if you wish. (Since my further point was that there are instances where you could legally ship to a non-licensee, but would then break the law if you did not notify.)

September 27, 2012, 10:52 PM	#43
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	One of the first firearms I shipped USPS I told the post master that it was a firearm and he said he didn't care and didn't want to know. I shipped a rifle UPS last year for a hunting trip. The counter person asked me if there was any ammo with it, I said yes and they said that was against their policy. So, they gave me a box cutter and some tape to take the ammo out of the gun case and put it in with the bed roll. Just as courteous as you could ask for. I'm not sure it isn't a different deal about everywhere you go depending on who happens to be working there.

September 27, 2012, 11:21 PM	#44
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	dont people still have the ability to have the ups man himself come by in his little brown truck and pic up packages from your front door?

September 28, 2012, 07:25 PM	#46
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	What's often missed in shipping is that when you fill out the shipping form and sign it, you're signing a legal contract. If you lie and say a package containing a gun contains "machine parts" or something else, you've violated the legal contract. If the package is lost, stolen, or damaged, the shipper will not give you a dime since you broke the contract. An easy way out of the far away UPS Depot and the "no guns" UPS store is to simply have UPS pick the package up at your door.

September 29, 2012, 03:05 AM	#47
Peptobismol9 Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2009 Posts: 137	The way it was put to me, was that they are legally obligated to accept firearms from FFL dealers. However they can refuse service to anyone else wishing to ship firearms. This apparently is regarding all the carriers. Like I said. Just the way it was put to me though.

September 29, 2012, 08:24 PM	#48
spodwo Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 839	I don't think that many of you realize that a UPS STORE is a Franchised operation. These, in many instances, were the old Mailboxes etc. So in effect - the policies of UPS stores are not the same as UPS. Because these "stores" are privately owned. Hence they don't accept firearms per their store policy. When I shipped firearms twice - I got a pre paid package slip via Fed Ex once from Taurus and once from UPS for Beretta.