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Old August 10, 2000, 12:34 PM   #26
dragontooth73
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pack sausage, carrots, sprouts, garlic in aluminium foil. add black bean sauce and a touch of chili sauce. wrap and place in hot coals. wait 10-15 min.

just thought i'd put down a campfire recipe since this thread was heating up it actually does work well btw. for fish recipes i prefer to get some soy sauce, add peeled garlic cloves to it, let it sit for a month. then mix in chopped ginger and a dash of sugar. ANYWAYS

Incursion thank you. i've been looking at gerbers, sebenzas, anc a couple of others, and i think i'm partial to the sebenzas now. i'll keep on thinking til i really come to a decision.

KOG, the "toothed" point found on katana is an armor-puncher. early samurai armor was entirely scaled as it was on mainland asia; the solid breastplates came much later (and were inspired by portuguese design) ... the toothed point hooks in between the scales nicely without snapping, as opposed to a thin rapier point.

it's a shame that budoh in japan has degenerated over time. i mention specifically the three-centuries "peace" of the tokunagas, which made battlefield techniques impossible to practice; the meiji restoration, and the emphasis on "scientific" western innovations in warfare; and the second world war, which devastated large parts of japanese culture.

old jujutsu, was part of the "six disciplines" ... spear, bow, sword, riding, hand-to-hand, and writing (to read military manuals and to be cultured at the imperial court ... tea-culture and the merits of concentration it brought were introduced later under hideyoshi). jujutsu was never intended to be used outside of this context ... part of the reason going to ground isn't encouraged is that old jujutsu was meant to be used wearing armor. rolling about on a battlefield doing leglocks in the midst of all that wreckage wasn't the idea.

KOG's use of a knife was exactly how the tanto should have been used by a dismounted samurai. Skorzeny's use of grappling is the perfect solution to a samurai who'd just lost his weapon facing a spear-wielding ashigaru. i don't see a real discrepancy between the two.

KOG, sorry if my language slips ... i simultaneously translate between languages so i end up garbling things sometimes. a "node" is here defined as a point where several previously irreconcilable factors converege into a single principle. for example, between rapier, katana, and barong, agreeing on the need for a strong thrusting potential would be a "node".

i wish i could contribute something substantial to the "to goto ground or not" but i do aikido ... i flip people and roll on the ground i've got a fire extinguisher for this thread though ... one canister or two?
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Old August 10, 2000, 11:17 PM   #27
Correia
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I don't really know much about this kind of thing, but I just wanted to thank you guys for posting all of this wonderful info. I have learned a ton off of these last three threads. It has been very educational.
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Old August 11, 2000, 12:54 AM   #28
Skorzeny
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KOG:

It appears, in the main, that we agree about more things than we disagree.

I especially appreciate the tone and the general conclusions of your last post.

I do have a couple of MINOR disagreements. For example, yes a punch can be thrown in less than a split second (or less time than a shoot-in). However, let's look at it this way. Once a shoot-in is initiated, there is some lag time on the part of the striker (because he has to 1) recognize the threat, 2) make a conscious decision to counter the threat and 3) launch the punch or the kick. I would argue that the whole process takes more than a split-second.

Now, why won't it work in reverse (a punch against a grappler)? Because, punching has a very specific and narrow maximal/minimal range (kicking is even worse in this regard). If you are either outside or inside it, you cannot be hurt. Plus, punching requires that you strike a relatively small part of your opponent's body with a pretty small part of your own body. On the contrary, a shoot-in has a much greater "circular error probability."

In addition, once a puncher punches once successfully, he usually has to keep punching or striking reliably and accurately to win the fight. In a grappler-vs-striker context, a grappler needs to successfully shoot-in once. Once in clinch, the grappler has the upper edge and will win, barring any act of stupidity on his part.

I have seen punchers successfully punch once or even two or three times but still fail to finish the fight. I have yet to see a grappler clinch successfully with a striker and not be able to finish the fight in his favor (note that this is all in "pure" grappling vs. "pure" striking context).

BTW, I like JKD quite a bit. Very scientific, very useful and very practical. Also, like BJJ, it is in a constant state of flux (for the better). I think JKD and BJJ make an excellent combination. Throw in Kali/Arnis/Escrima and shooting skills, and you got a very well-balanced, well-trained fighter.

Last point: Judo has largely become a sport (just like Tae Kwon Do) - people go where the fame and money are (the Olympics, for example). Systems like Sambo and BJJ, however, retain their more combative aspects. Sambo is made up of 1) sports Sambo, 2) unarmed self-defense Sambo and 3) military non-firearms weapon Sambo (mostly spades and such). BJJ is made up of 1) sports BJJ, 2) Vale Tudo ("no-holds barred" fighting) and 3) street fighting. Judo used to have different Kata's (sports ones, self-defense ones and "traditional," almost ceremonial ones), but unfortunately most American Judoka only teach/practice sports Katas.

I would like to note, by the way, that sports techniques should not be denigrated. Awe-inspiring "dirty" techniques and death moves are all fine and dandy, except they can't be practiced dynamically (full-force, fully-resisting and unpredictable opponent). What can't be practiced dynamically cannot be easily and effectively applied in stressful "real" situations. After all, do you train Kali by actually stabbing people? Therein lies the value of UFC and other similar events - "minimum" rules compared to most other events.

Afterall, even Filippino "death matches" were not completely rule-free. I doubt it was socially acceptable to show up with an AK-47, kill your opponent and say "I am the God of Kali knife-fighting." We are all subject to the social and cultural forces that shape us whether we are competing in sports or fighting for our lives. There is hardly anything in life that is "rule"- or custom- or "culture"-free.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
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Old August 11, 2000, 02:58 AM   #29
dragontooth73
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well honestly ... i can say that the heat in this thread comes from erudite, well-rounded individuals with much experience. Skorzeny, KOG, thank you both.

having said that, i'll add my $.02 cents ... i trained in aikido at the main dojo in shinjuku ward, tokyo, still run by the ueshibas. from the (all-too-brief) time i've spent there and then emerging into the "real" world, i learned to expect a couple of quick hits fast. i also learned to expect instinct and a steady pulse to serve me better than expecting to be able to use the traditional forms.

i've heard quite a number of dojomates in awe of the ueshiba legacy and espouse how much of a "superior" art aikido was. i remained unconvinced, and now after reading this i am more so than ever. before i left japan i'd acquired a number of texts on gung-fu, and also on the "experimental" variants of karate. i'm still mulling them over. being comparatively young has its advantages.

having said that, i'm beginning to think common sense is prevailing in this thread. i'd expected a traditionalist stance from somebody, anybody, but what i'm reading is a very informed discussion of views. thanks to all of you.

KOG, i'd forgot to mention i have an obsidian arrowhead on my desk. i'm familiar with its properties. i collect gemstones in my free time so i've had a number of pieces for years. if i ever get around to it i'll get a few slabs from someplace and chisel some blades out

Skorzeny, i think you've just described an ideal system. jkd/bjj/kali sounds like an excellent regimen for developing character i'd add excercises from either yoga or certain gung fu disciplines for breathing and flexibility; there's an interesting text (in japanese) that i got from last year that makes a study of the impact of controlled breathing on martial arts. i just hope i can distill it enough and then translate it for posting here.

anyways ... everyone have a good night oh and those recipes do really work so try them sometimes
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Old August 24, 2000, 08:24 AM   #30
Glamdring
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I just wanted to add my observation about early UFC. When Keith Hackney faced Royce he stopped Royce's shootingh in at least twice and maybe three times cold.

His problem, IMHO, was that he didn't have any trained responese for stopping someone that way...he had no follow up techniques.

At least once Hackney stopped Royce shooting in by simply palming Royce's head..if he had turned that in palm strike/block into a head crank...or a powerful strike to head or spine, royce would have been in a world of hurt. BTW Royce ended up on all fours with his weight on his hands, from shooting in, so he was in no position to counter or evade.

Not meant as a flame. IMO the Roryce vs Hackney match was the most interesting.

BTW It seemed to me that you only had a few basic ways to lose in the early UFC someone would get in the mount or guard postion and then strangle or apply submission hold to you OR head blows. One of the conclusions I drew from the UFC was that you need to protect your head/neck area from both blows and strangles. Which might sound simplistic or self evident, but I have attended more than a couple different seminars for self defense not to mention at least 3 different "dojos" and none of them stressed that basic fact.
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Old August 24, 2000, 08:26 AM   #31
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double tap

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 24, 2000).]
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Old August 25, 2000, 12:13 AM   #32
JayDrummond
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glamdring:
double tap

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited August 24, 2000).]
[/quote]

Back to "will" as a "weapon." The RVN beat the snot out of the US with SKS's tied up in rags. The wood stocks had been buried and eaten away by the stuff in the ground. We couldn't beat them with jets, napalm, USO show, shiploads of beer and steak, and rotating the troops out of country after twelve months. You need to want the victory.

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Old August 25, 2000, 08:17 AM   #33
Rich Lucibella
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Thread closed in favor of Part IV.
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