Which influences accuracy most?

[10-96]

It's been a while since Mr. Pond got his Sig 400, but we still don't know for sure if he's had the thing really looked over as far as seeing if the bbl is torqued correctly or if there's a gross high spot on the receiver face.

[Clark]

Metal god
Clark :
So nothing matters or only the rifle ?

Like a million other guys, I have been trying to figure out how I can get better accuracy and precision.

Based on the folklore I have read, I have tried many things.
Based on the many things I have tried, I have inferred principals from anecdotes.

So what I know is based on some folklore and some anecdotes.
If you have read different folklore or believed different folklore and experienced different anecdotes, your milage may vary.

The current state of my beliefs on... [ Professor Brian Greene says that he does not believe anything, but finds some evidence compelling]... I should say I am compelled to say my best guess at this time is:

category A
Things that seem to make an improvement with 5 shots at 100 yards

Big effect on accuracy
1) shoot when there is no wind
2) get a high power scope
3) practice dry firing and keeping crosshairs on bullseye
4) clean out Copper fouling in bore
5) good bullets
6) No expander ball use
7) jam bullet into lands
8) heavy gun and light bullet
9) float the barrel
10) keep barrel cool
11) expensive bull barrels
12) make sure scope mounts are tight to receiver


category B
Things that show no improvement with 5 shots at 100 yards.
To detect the improvement it would take more shots, a better shooter, a better rifle, better ammo, or something more than i am doing.

1) True the action face
2) true the inner C ring
3) lap the lugs
4) true the bolt face
5) chase the threads
6) speed up the lock time
7) glass bed the action
8) pillar bed the action
9) get a 1 ounce trigger
10) turn the case necks
11) weigh the brass
12) de burr the flash holes
13) weigh each powder charge
14) try different powders
15) use benchrest primers
16) lap the scope rings.
17) Dial in bore when chambering
18) re crown the muzzle

[RaySendero]

Then there should be an A+ category = Get the trigger right!

[4runnerman]

Clark-While I can not disprove your test as you did them I am very puzzeled by your findings. First I would never judge a group at 100 yards unless we are talking a 22. Which Is why I do concure with your tests. 100 yards IMHO is no where near enough to conduct an accuracy test. I could give you 20 loads from a 308 that will make one hole at 100 yards, but fall apart at 300 plus.
In the no difference catagory. Numbers 7, 8 and 14 and 15. All those make a big difference in accuracy.
Bull barrels while you can shoot more non stop are no more accurate than a skinny one. Weighing your powder charge is another one for me that makes a difference. While 20 to 30 fps at 100 yards makes no difference, take that out to 1000 yards and you have a 8 inch spread i bet. My match loads I can maintain 10 fps or less by weighing each charge on a digital scale. This one I don't make a big deal about because I know a lot of top shooters just throw a charge and shoot great( always has puzzeled me on that one)
Might I suggest you do this test again, but at a minimum of 300 yards. I have a feeling your results will change.

[WVMountaineer]

It's every detail perfected, working together to get it perfected. However, simply stated, I personally believe case care, prep, and selection is much more important than charge weight etc.. Picking your powder should be easy enough to get acceptable results once you know your barrel twist and bullet choice. You can always taylor choose either of these. But, you can't substitute case prep. Nothing will erase, make up for, or cover up shotty case prep, cases with different brass, or cases with differing capacity. God Bless

OnGod Bless

[F. Guffey]

Repeat:

I won a bid on one of the gun auctions, $120.00. The rifle was so ugly it caught the attentions of reloading forums, the general consensus was it was the ugliest.

I could not believe anyone could build a rifle that ugly without knowing what they were doing. I took the rifle to the range with reloads. Again, I gook 120 rounds of 12 different loads with different cases, powder and bullets. If I was wrong about the builder being creative I was going to use it as a parts gun.

I did not hoover over the cases and press, I did nothing with off the lands, I sized the cases with total disregard to the length of the chamber. Again, I did not have a group that was larger in diameter than a quarter. The groups did move around but did not open up.

I decided I could not improve on the accuracy of the Remington M1917, I applied the 'leaver policy', I left the rifle the way I founder.

F. Guffey

[Colorado Redneck]

James--This is a very informative read, and very interesting. It will give some insight--much of which has been posted here--and it was developed by expert shooters in an extremely controlled environment.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

[Clark]

4runnerman
Might I suggest you do this test again, but at a minimum of 300 yards. I have a feeling your results will change.

I live on an Island surrounded by the worst traffic for 1,000 miles to the South, 2,000 miles to the East, 5,000 miles to the West, and 10,000 miles to the North. But I do make it to a 100 yard range, a couple times a year.
I write up detailed range reports, like a high school chemistry lab write up.

One a year I put 3 or 4 rifles I built that year in the vehicle, drive 900 miles East and hunt. I usually arrive a month early. I target practice on low wind days. In Oct 2014 I had the accuracy and precision to take shots at 550 yards, but I got my bucks at 50 yards when the seasons opened.
My write ups from the field are terrible. I never write them up while reading my notes and targets before memory fades.

[caz223]

I have a somewhat seat of the pants view on it, but after a long time loading I have come to some conclusions.
The shooters' contribution to accuracy is 80%, the shooter must do their part. The other 20% is a combination of everything else.
Of the 20% of what's left, the projectile is 80% of that.
What's left is 20% of 20% and it amounts to everything else.

To restate, the shooter and the projectile is 96% of it.

[603Country]

I admit that I don't know positively what works best for accuracy and what doesn't, so I do everything (pretty much) that I can think of to do and hope that the cumulative effort results in a good shooter. That approach seems to work pretty well, though I suppose it isn't scientific.

And on the fat barrel versus skinny barrel as it applies to accuracy, the consensus seems to be that thin is every bit as good as thick. Baloney. I accept the theory behind that, but in the real world if I want maximum accuracy I want a bull barrel and not a thin whippy one. Yell at me if you wish, but my mind is made up.

[Pond, James Pond]

Whilst I don't question the truth of it, those posters who are bringing the shooter and even the rifle into the equation are perhaps missing the point of the thread.

If your accuracy is not as good as you'd like, sure you can practise, but that will take a long time to see improvements. On the other hand you're not ging to just buy a new rifle or barrel. You won't opt for truing the action or bedding it.

For most the first stop is tweak load recipes. Take my M400 as an example: when not bowled over by accuracy m suggestion to get handloading for it was met with agreement as opposed to spending a stack on a Geiselle trigger.

So, look at it like this. Imagine you have a one-use magic wand that will instantly make one aspect of your handloaded cartridge utterly perfect for you gun. You can zap the bullet to match your barrel sublimely or pazzazz your cases to fit the chamber like a glove everytime etc.

Which would you choose?
That is what I was getting at in the OP.

[jwrowland77]

Maybe that's exactly what's needed though. Take quality reloads, great gun, if the shooter can't read wind or shoot consistently, and have good control on when to pull trigger and how to pull trigger correctly, the reloads and rifle isn't going to mean a hill of beans.

[hooligan1]

Beer, thats my secret. Only after a Successful range trip, I reward myself with beer. It works try it....I like it, therfore I am.

[cw308]

I feel each one will effect accuracy. Most attention will be in case prep, if your sloppy with any one of them it will effect your group size.

[4runnerman]

I agree with cw308 here. To many just throw the case in the die and slam away. They pay no attention to the finer details. Sizing is IMHO more important then seating the bullet to me. Neck tension is another one most don't pay attention to. If your neck tension is all over-so are your groups. Each and every step is important. Can't say one is more important then the other. They all work together.

[Jimro]

4runnerman,

I could give you 20 loads from a 308 that will make one hole at 100 yards, but fall apart at 300 plus.

I'd say any load in 308 that can make one hole at 100 yards is a group where one round hit and 19 misfired. Never seen any 308 Win shoot anywhere near that tight, with any load, especially at 100 yards.

Bull barrels while you can shoot more non stop are no more accurate than a skinny one.

Except it is easier to make an consistent bull barrel than a consistent skinny barrel. The greater mass of a bull barrel also dampens internal recoil forces for more consistent accuracy from inconsistent shooters.

But technically it isn't the barrel that makes the hole in the target, that's the bullet. And the best barrel in the world will shoot like crap if fed crap ammo.

Accuracy means putting the bullet where you intend, consistency is how a given load performs in a given rifle. And it it easier to make a bull barrel that shoots consistently simply because you mess with it less during manufacturing.

Jimro

[4runnerman]

Jimro- 308's are very accurate. 100 yards is very close. One hole is very easy to do. See 308's doing it on a weekly basis at the range. Nothing special about that. My point being 100 yards is way to close to call a load for accuracy.

[Jimro]

4runnerman,

I'd challenge you to more conclusively prove your hypothesis.

I'd also say that managing a "one hole group" at 100 is either a consistent thing for a load/rifle combination, or it's just the luck of circle error probability. Falling for the "Texas Rifleman Fallacy" of only highlighting the tightest groups isn't a true indicator of the rifles performance.

I have not yet experienced a load that shot well at 100 go to hell past 300. Except when the wind is blowing, then any load can perform poorly because the conditions are not consistent no matter how consistent the load.

Jimro

[4runnerman]

Jim- I do not fart around at 100 yards at all anymore. I shoot a min of 300 yards or more. I shoot with maybe 10 to 15 guys every weekend. Last year for the heck of it we did bring our rifles in to 100 to fart around-I shot a .151 group right off the bat with the 6BR. Now with a 308 to make a one hole group at 100 yards is not to hard time after time. I do not pretend that I do not have fliers now and then,Everyone does but 9 out of 10 times I will shoot one hole at 100 yards. I do not have hunting rifles, Most my rigs are Target Rifles ( I do not hunt anymore)but as I said 100 yards is way to close for anything other than a 22. I get out to the Bosses place maybe 2 times a month and I am shooting at 1000 to 1400 yards. The thrill of 100 yards is no thrill at all.

Again Jim-The point I am making is if a bullet(load) is going to go South on you 100 yards is not far enough for it to show up very well.
My 6MMBR- 107 gn Serria Match bullets- 30.5 gns RL-15- Solid one hole 100 yards- 300 yards opens up to 2 plus inches. Same load except 28.8 gns RL-15 solid one hole at 100 yards and 1 inch at 300. My 308- 168 gn Serria-42.0 gns RL15-one hole 100 yards-3 plus at 300 yards- same load 43.2 gns RL-15 , One hole 100 yards 1.5 inches at 300.

[Machineguntony]

Clark,

You missed the bullseye.

[TXAZ]

The most influence is the shooter, accounting for 90% of all of it.

[Pond, James Pond]

It's been a while since Mr. Pond got his Sig 400, but we still don't know for sure if he's had the thing really looked over as far as seeing if the bbl is torqued correctly or if there's a gross high spot on the receiver face.

And I'm unlikely to ever know. I have absolutely zero gunsmith contacts here and I'd have no idea of their competence so I'm going to have to assume it is OK, or at least hope it is.

All the same, this thread is by no means focussed on my Sig's performance. It was just a general query.

The most influence is the shooter, accounting for 90% of all of it.

True but I want to focus on the other 10%. Have a look at post #36: it clarifies what I'm trying to understand.

[Clark]

They say that accuracy is a 3 legged stool: shooter, rifle, and ammo.

In the mid 1990s I was not getting good groups with the 308 FAL rifles I was building. The gun forum answer was, "Your surplus ammo is inaccurate. You need 168 gr Sierra match king bullets."

I loaded up boxes of 168 gr Match kings, and I still got 6 moa.

So after a lifetime of being an internet gun nut, I can tell I am bitter about a couple of things:
1) SAAMI registered pressures and load books were brought down from the mountain by Moses.
2) Esoteric benchrest techniques suggested for 6 moa problems.
3) Sear polishing Mosin Nagants with a 12 pound trigger spring gets 100,000 youtube views.
4) Firing an AK while wearing a bikini gets 1,000,000 views. Everytime I watch it I get more bitter.

[Metal god]

In the mid 1990s I was not getting good groups with the 308 FAL rifles I was building. The gun forum answer was, "Your surplus ammo is inaccurate. You need 168 gr Sierra match king bullets."

I loaded up boxes of 168 gr Match kings, and I still got 6 moa.

OK I totally get where your coming from . How ever with out knowing all that was being said in your gun forum . I'd think changing bullets would be one of the first things I tried to fix the problem .

If My rifle was shooting 6 moa ,my first choice to fix the problem would not be to change the barrel or take some shooting lessons .

It also would not be to start

deburring the flash hole
or
setting the shoulders back a couple more thou
or
turning the neck
or
switching dies
or
changing powders
or
changing primers


None of those would be the first thing I checked but lower on the list would be a couple things I'd try next . Only after trying quite a few things would I start to look at the rifle . Now during that whole process something may jump out at ya that says it's the rifle or the shooter but for me that's not where I'd start .

If you go back to Pond's OP you will see he was clear on the question .

which aspect of reloading had the greatest effect on accuracy in a given rifle.

He's talking reloading and you only get one rifle to to shoot those loads from .

[Jimro]

4runnerman,

Now with a 308 to make a one hole group at 100 yards is not to hard time after time. I do not pretend that I do not have fliers now and then,Everyone does but 9 out of 10 times I will shoot one hole at 100 yards. I do not have hunting rifles, Most my rigs are Target Rifles ( I do not hunt anymore)but as I said 100 yards is way to close for anything other than a 22. I get out to the Bosses place maybe 2 times a month and I am shooting at 1000 to 1400 yards. The thrill of 100 yards is no thrill at all.

If 9 out of 10 times is one hole, then over 20 shots you should have two flyers.... Unless you meant that 9 out of 10 times you shoot a 20 shot group at 100 you make one hole, in which case your flyer rate is about 0.5%.

But 100 yards doesn't make sense for you, with your rifles, with your handloads. Of course maybe you should think about it from Pond's point of view, as a relatively new shooter, in Estonia, trying to get the most accuracy he can from the rifle he has and components available.

I'd say that since 1 hole groups are so easy you should try it with a rack grade rifle and commercial ammo. Just some random 308 you pull off the shelf some where and winchester white box. And then if you can do it, try handing it to your wife, or some random stranger and have them repeat it.

If the 308 is so inherently accurate, should be no problem right? Well not so much. Hand crafted ammo to a hand cut match chamber in an 18 pound rifle is a whole different story compared to commercial chamber and commercial or untuned handloaded ammo in an 8 pound rifle.

Jimro