To stir up old discontent... MA training

[sakeneko]

I'm not a martial artist: last time I took any martial art was when I was twelve or thirteen years old. (Summer camp karate.) However, I've known some military guys, some of them with a full 25 or more years, who learned martial arts right along with their weapons training. They tell me that, properly taught and learned, the skills from any non-weapon martial art are at least 90% applicable to a fight using a gun or other weapon.

I'm seriously considering taking up judo, mostly to improve my physical fitness but figuring it will also help me be more aware of my body and more able to make *it* behave the way my mind tells it to.

[fastbolt]

They tell me that, properly taught and learned, the skills from any non-weapon martial art are at least 90% applicable to a fight using a gun or other weapon.

Good observation and comment.

[MLeake]

... when taught properly, martial arts teach: balance; timing; breath control; ability to focus and move under duress; ability to read a potential opponent, based on both body language (what does he seem likely to do) and stance (what will his current position and balance allow him to do in the next instant?); self-discipline.

Which of those things would not be beneficial to anybody, armed or unarmed, who might have to defend against those who would do harm?

[grymster2007]

Which of those things would not be beneficial to anybody, armed or unarmed, who might have to defend against those who would do harm?

Granted, those things would prove beneficial.... given someone that understands their limitations and more importantly, doesn't let over-inflated self-confidence put them at undue risk. And therein lies the thing I see wrong with most people practicing MA. My personal perception is that most (not all) people that practice the arts, can't help but develop misguided confidence that places them in more danger than had they not. Some flaw of the nature of humans I suppose, but in my mind it renders the whole idea useless..... or worse, for most people.

[MLeake]

... the harder it should be to get over-confident. Stuff works, except when it doesn't. There are plenty of times in training when it doesn't. Ideally, though, that teaches not to fixate on any given technique, and just keep moving and looking for openings.

To paraphrase Sun T'zu, the man who knows his enemy is powerful, but the man who knows himself (strengths and limitations) is stronger still.

[buck9]

I live and loved the arts. Was very confident with who I was and what I could do. Then came mma it changed my mind. Then I learned about guns and it changed my mind again. In my humble opinion if a person no matter their stature can maintain their distance and see the laser dot and pull the trigger they will win every time even against even the best in the arts.

[MLeake]

However, there is merit in saying that if you can prevent the draw in the first place, it's to your advantage.

There is also merit in suggesting that sometimes, the only options available are all pretty bad; if you have no idea how to pursue them, but have to try anyway, your options are that much worse.

And there is merit in suggesting that sometimes having at least some amount of training in handling a physical altercation will give you time to get your own weapon into play.

Of course, not every BG will have a firearm, or even a weapon. Now what will you do? Strongarm robbery may not justify deadly force in your area. Do you have any other options, or are you stuck with 1) do nothing and be a compliant victim, or 2) draw a weapon and risk aggravated assault charges if you are in one of those jurisdictions that does not allow deadly force or its threat against strongarm robbers?

[grymster2007]

However, there is merit in saying that if you can prevent the draw in the first place, it's to your advantage.

Agreed. I once took a guy's gun from him. I was not quick enough to prevent the draw, but I closed the gap between us so fast that it completely shocked him when I wrenched it from his hand and knocked him to the floor. I think the gun made him over-confident and he assumed that merely pointing it would keep him safe.

OTOH, while I prevailed, my actions weren't so bright.... but that's what 20 year old kids do sometimes. These days, thirty years later, I would express my grievances against him in a courtroom.

[Kishido]

+1 on Krav Maga training, it's simple enough to be assimilated quickly but it does work on the street. I have trained in several traditional arts and they are all great but there is a need to tweak them for SD. Marc MacYoung has a great book called "Taking It To the Streets" a must read for practitioners of all types.

I think it better to train thoroughly with a handful of techniques and be able to perform them during an adrenaline dump than to know 50 ways to defend against a firearm but get confused when tired and scared.
I also humbly submit that any technique which is designed to take an opponent to the ground be avoided, since you don't know where his buddies are.
That being said, knowing some good groundwork is helpful if the fight does go to the ground. I'm 5'10 and 170lbs, and there are plenty of wayyyy bigger people out there. Over the years I've gotten pretty good at not going to ground but it does happen. (busted a couple ribs on one of those concrete wheel stop thingys in a parking lot)

[stephen426]

I think a lot of you guys are missing the point of the original post. We are not talking about martial artists against street fighters or martial arts against a loaded gun. I'm pretty sure the main point of the original post was to encourage us to supplement our self-defense training with some form of martial art.

I did a few years of Tae Kwon Do back high school and I still practice a little on my own. Am I going to find some street fighter to hone my skills? Heck no! Is it possible that a good street fighter will kick my butt? Most probably. Is it better to not know anything? DEFINITELY NOT!

It has also been mentioned several times, but I will say it again... It is often times the fighter and not the style that determines the outcome. Boxers will take shots that would knock most people down, if not out. They also know how to hit pretty darn hard. If you take a martial artists that competes based on points or contact, the boxer will mop the floor with him. Now if you take someone who is serious about their art and trains regularly, their chances of success improve dramatically.

[stephen426]

This post is totally unrelated to my previous post so I figured I'd start a new post:

I was thinking that if I was confronted by a person holding a gun at me, what would be the most effective way to defend myself. I know that most people would say just give up whatever the bad guy is asking for. The problem is that many people have been shot after giving up without resistance. For arguements sake, lets assume that the there is an opportunity to resist and that the bad guy has given indications that he will probably shoot you no matter what.

Assuming that the bad guy was within striking distance, (has the gun pointed at you with his arm extended), what do you feel would be the most effective disarming technique. My concern with gun grabs is you are dealing with an unknown attacker. His reaction time may be very fast and he may be very strong. Gun grabs require fine motor movements and a missed gun grab will probably be deadly.

I was thinking the best thing to do is feign compliance first. You have to make sure you don't project your intentions by staring at what or when you are going to attack. I would go for a simple sweep if the gun and a good hard groin kick. You have to follow this up immediately with additional strikes and get a hold of the weapon. Do you guys think this would work (as a last ditch effort)?

[Kishido]

You mean I misunderstood the OP and posted something unrelated? Wow what are the chances of that? Sorry Stephen. I have a couple of friends here in Colorado Springs that I have pestered to get training and even offered to bring in some sparring equipment but with little success. The idea that "I don't need that stuff, I have a gun" is the response I usually get... You guys know who you are! I'm looking at you Ed!

Anyways, check out this vid with Darren Levine it might help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1tvk...eature=related

[sakeneko]

Anything could work, especially if the choice is between doing it and doing nothing. IMHO the biggest advantage to martial arts training is that it increases the number of options you have when facing an attacker, and in many cases provides the mental discipline necessary to make good choices from those options.

[GojuBrian]

Martial arts training is also beneficial in that it will teach you what you CAN do and what you thought you could do.
The biggest thing I've learned from martial arts is my own abilities and limitations and how to use them to my best advantage.







Do a style where you'll get hands on training in striking distance, clinch, and ground training.

[porkskin]

GojuBrian,

There is a place to test your skills, and make some cash too. The cage. It bothers me when people from any Karate based art try to equate their training to Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo< Wrestling, or Boxing. GojuBrian, I will grant you that you appear to be training with live resistance, so training looks good. Google Charles "krazy Horse" Bennett. You will see a Cage fighter with no formal training and a criminal record who has beaten many well trained fighters. In my mind's eye, the people we are training to defend ourselves more closely resemble Charles that our training partners. The bad guys don't always do what we who train together know to do

[MLeake]

Porkskin,

there are people out there who will kick most of our butts regardless of our training levels. So what?

There are plenty of BG's out there who are not cage fighters. In fact, the vast majority of them probably are not all that skillful.

Are you suggesting that if you can't take the baddest of the bad, that training is useless?

[porkskin]

What I am saying is I have known many people who had confidence in an unapplicable MA, and when needed for real world applications, were let down. I am saying that if there is no realistic MA in your area, then select the best school you can, but something in krav maga, combatives WW2, western boxing, or wrestling will get you the furthest. A street fight has more in common with a hockey fight than a MMA event. Anyone who rebuts that is in denial. Go to Southnarc's forum or Gabe Suarez forum and see what force on force really looks like. It is unpredictable and people are wearing street clothes, not gi's. My expirience, which is mostly what not to do, would be to clinch an opponent, use dirty boxing strikes, and then get the hell away.

[DT Guy]

In every population (the people currently shopping in the same store with you, the people at the same ballgame as you, the people in your neighborhood, etc.), you will have a proportion of those people whose fighting skills exceed your own, a proportion of those people whose skills do not match your own and a very large number whose skills so closely match your own that circumstances, variables and luck will determine who prevails.

The job of training is to decrease the relative size of the first and last groups, and increase the relative size of the second to increase your odds should a fight develop.

That's all MA really does-it slightly shifts the odds for and against you in any population, with the nature of the population having great impact on how much the MA helps.

Rumble in the preschool? You may be all set. Bar fight? Could be trickier. 'Roid rage at the local Gold's Gym? Hmmmmm........

[MLeake]

... is that I know many police officers and corrections officers who have defeated real world attacks by real, not theoretical, BG's using a blend of aikido and jujutsu.

What I am also saying is that the style matters less than the practitioner's training regimen, which I think is a point of agreement.

In the case of one of the CO's, before he started training, he was attacked by a prisoner with a shiv. He froze up, and took the shiv in the shoulder. Other CO's subdued the attacker.

He hadn't been training with us for a year before the next attack. This time, a trustee on a road crew the CO was supervising got mad over being told to extinguish a cigarette, so he attacked the CO with a bush axe. This time, CO moved to inside the attack radius, took the bush axe, and hip threw the attacker in one move. Attacker was knocked out when his head hit the ground.

There are other real world examples I could list, from people with whom I have trained.

It's better to have more tools available, given the option to acquire them. MA training of some sort is a potentially useful tool. The practitioner is responsible for the quality of his own training, and for his own expectations.

[stephen426]

What I am saying...

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... is that I know many police officers and corrections officers who have defeated real world attacks by real, not theoretical, BG's using a blend of aikido and jujutsu.

What I am also saying is that the style matters less than the practitioner's training regimen, which I think is a point of agreement.

In the case of one of the CO's, before he started training, he was attacked by a prisoner with a shiv. He froze up, and took the shiv in the shoulder. Other CO's subdued the attacker.

He hadn't been training with us for a year before the next attack. This time, a trustee on a road crew the CO was supervising got mad over being told to extinguish a cigarette, so he attacked the CO with a bush axe. This time, CO moved to inside the attack radius, took the bush axe, and hip threw the attacker in one move. Attacker was knocked out when his head hit the ground.

There are other real world examples I could list, from people with whom I have trained.

It's better to have more tools available, given the option to acquire them. MA training of some sort is a potentially useful tool. The practitioner is responsible for the quality of his own training, and for his own expectations.

Excellent point. I only trained for a few years and don't practive that frequently, the training I received greatly improved my reactions and blocking ability. Basically, I was taught how to move more effectively and to use my force more effectively.

[Edward429451]

[Deaf Smith]

At close range you do not have to be good.... just fast.

Inside a few feet, as long as you do not telegraph your moves, you can get inside another persons OODA loop. Just takes practice.

I highly recommend the martial arts. The ones like TKD, or Shotokan, or Shorin-Ryu, are more formal and have kata, lanuage studies, and are very styalistic. Some of these are 'hard styles', while others, like many of the Kung Fu, are soft styles. Some belive in attack, others counter-attack.

Others, like Krav Maga, are pure self defense and do not have anywere near the regimentation as the others. No language, no kata, not much bowing, etc.... But they do have alot of PT, good SD methods, and contact, all to the good.

I say this being a 5th dan TKD and a Krav Maga practitioner.

So get off your duff and go work out. It will do wonders for you and give you a backup skill just in case you don't have a convenient weapon. In fact, as has been said by many, the real weapon is your mind.