dud primers

mags2079 · April 28, 2014, 01:57 PM

tested some hand loads this past weekend out of 60 rounds I had 13 that did not go off after 3 times trying to fire them. the printer were sci large magnum primers. the rifle i used was a savage axis 7-08 and the grains were 31 to 33 grains of h335. Has anyone ever had this problem?

Bart B. · April 28, 2014, 02:13 PM

Were the primers fully dimpled by the firing pin impact? If so, then they may have got contaminated with water or some other liquid.

If they were not fully dented. . . .

Maybe the cases were full length sized too much and the shoulder set back way too far for the chamber. When this happens, the firing pin doesn't dent primers very much because they're too far away from the bolt face when the firing pin tip smacks them and they're not dented enough.

Another cause could be not enough firing pin tip protrusion from the bolt face. It should be at least .060" for total reliability.

And finally, in last place, is a weak firing pin spring.

All the above assumes you put powder in the case before seating the bullet. Such anomolies have happened to us humans.

45_auto · April 28, 2014, 02:14 PM

More likely "dud seating" than "dud primers".

If the primers aren't fully seated in the case, then the firing pin will use lots of it's energy moving them forward in the primer pocket before starting to dent them. There will be enough energy left to dent the primer, but not enough to set it off.

Once a primer has been struck without it going off, the pellet of priming compound under the anvil is usually crushed and no amount of repeated strikes will set it off.

Bart B. · April 28, 2014, 02:19 PM

45 Auto, incomplete seating is typically fixed by the firing pin impact driving them all the way home. If your cases are headspaced right for the chamber, there'll only be a few thousandths head clearance; distance from bolt face to case head when the case is all the way forward stopping against its headspace reference. So the primer's going to protrude no more than that past the case head when the firing pin smacks it.

I had a discussion about this years ago with someone and had to demonstrate with three rifles that this happened when primers were not seated at least flush with the case head. Others have since related similar issues.

Most primers need at least a .020" deep dimple to fire them.

45_auto · April 28, 2014, 02:41 PM

Basic article on primers by Allan Jones here:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01...motaip_200909/

Quote:

However, failing to set the bridge thickness through proper seating depth is the number one cause of primer failures to fire.

"How to prevent centerfire misfires" here:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/11...fire-misfires/

Quote:

The apex cause of centerfire hand-loads misfiring is a “high primer,” one that is not seated fully.

My experiences with new handloaders support his views.

Bart B. · April 29, 2014, 08:07 AM

45 auto, those links have incomplete information; neither address these critical factors:

*Were the primers too big in diameter (or primer pockets too small in diameter) to easily seat all the way from normal force of the primer seater?

*Was the firing pin protrusion and its spring strength at factory specs?

*Was the case and chamber headspace correct so head clearance was OK?

I ask because none of my tests failed to fire a rifle primer that was seated .025" or so out past the case head in chambers with cases within dimensional specs. Some empty cases were checked for incomplete seated primer protrusion after chambering and none stuck out more than about .003" which was typical head clearance on cases tested. Test firing inert primers in primed cases had all of them driven into full depth in their primer pockets with extra deep indentations.

And I think the second link only addressed handguns; not rifles.

45_auto · April 29, 2014, 08:14 AM

Not a big deal, he doesn't have to check the seating of his primers if he doesn't want to.

I simply prefer to start my troubleshooting at the most common, simplest level before assuming bad mechanical parts like dies, firing pins, or springs.

Mike1234 · April 29, 2014, 12:36 PM

I had a problem with duds in my Savage Axis in .223 Rem. The duds were XM193 Federal LC. BEFORE ANYONE SAYS THAT'S DUMB... the Axis is OVERBUILT for .223... same beefy chamber as for .30-06. Turns out the issue was with the firing pin which dimpled the primer just fine but the velocity was a bit slow. I sent the bolt in for service and it's fine now.

mags2079 · April 29, 2014, 01:27 PM

thanks for the info. the bolt, firing pin etc. is all factory spec. could just be bad seating, but great info

Mike1234 · April 29, 2014, 02:23 PM

I assumed mine was "factory spec" too since it was a brand new rifle... but it wasn't so.

RC20 · April 29, 2014, 11:06 PM

I shot my Bulldog 44 pistol for the first time in years.

I had forgot about the transfer bar, you have to keep pulling the trigger even after the hammer lets go or it does not get up high enough or only partial.

Primer was dimpled but not enough (gave it lots of time before checking it!)

Cycled it back in, made sure I kept trigger back and boom (as did the rest of them).

I had not thought you could dimple a primer that much and not have it go boom but you sure can!

243winxb · April 30, 2014, 02:02 PM

Spray bolt good with WD 40. The firing pin is slow on velocity.

Mike1234 · April 30, 2014, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Spray bolt good with WD 40. The firing pin is slow on velocity.

It might... but thoroughly cleaning/lubing the firing pin in my Savage Axis had no effect. I had to return it for service.

snuffy · May 1, 2014, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Spray bolt good with WD 40. The firing pin is slow on velocity.

WD-40 is the absolute worst thing you can use on any part of a gun. ESPECIALLY inside a bolt or firing system. That ap-cray will turn into a gummy glue with time, insuring miss-fires. It's extremely difficult to remove after it gums everything up.

How do I know? I worked for a gunsmith, my job was to clean guns. One sniff of a gun brought in that would no longer function would tell me it had the "WD-40 treatment" That means somebody had used WD-40, then next year he/she would grab the gun, it would be sluggish, so he/she would hose it down with more WD-40 to get it moving again. Same for the next 2-3 years. Finally that would not work anymore. Then I'd get it, or some other "gun doctor"!

The only stuff that would dissolve that junk was a chlorinated solvent. Then only after soaking for at least 24 hours.

The firearm was returned to the customer, lightly oiled, with admonitions NOT to use WD-40. Comments like well it always worked before! Oh, then why did you bring it in, if it was working?

RC20 · May 1, 2014, 09:52 PM

I love it.

Never thought about using it but then had no reason not to. For sure its off the list!

243winxb · May 1, 2014, 09:56 PM

The speed of the firing pin is only one thing to check. As said above, firing pin protrusion should be around .055" I noticed on my new 223 rem Savage Axis, after a misfire on round #71, a few things. So after some testing. 1. The shoulder is set back .006" from the firing pin strike. A 2nd strke makes it even more to .014". Having a crush fit of the round in the chamber may help, but the Axis will fire a primer with no shoulder on the case. This is because the extractor supports the case enough to fire the primer. [IMG]

[/IMG] My round that misfired was correct with powder & primer seating. The primer did go off on the 4th strike. The 3 & 4 strike was in another piece of brass that had a cruch fit in the chamber. Strike #3 also set the shoulder back about .006" Another Axis owner/reloader confirmed my test results.

April 28, 2014, 01:57 PM	#1
mags2079 Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2013 Posts: 13	dud primers tested some hand loads this past weekend out of 60 rounds I had 13 that did not go off after 3 times trying to fire them. the printer were sci large magnum primers. the rifle i used was a savage axis 7-08 and the grains were 31 to 33 grains of h335. Has anyone ever had this problem?

May 1, 2014, 09:56 PM	#16
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Savage Axis Misfire The speed of the firing pin is only one thing to check. As said above, firing pin protrusion should be around .055" I noticed on my new 223 rem Savage Axis, after a misfire on round #71, a few things. So after some testing. 1. The shoulder is set back .006" from the firing pin strike. A 2nd strke makes it even more to .014". Having a crush fit of the round in the chamber may help, but the Axis will fire a primer with no shoulder on the case. This is because the extractor supports the case enough to fire the primer. [IMG][/IMG] My round that misfired was correct with powder & primer seating. The primer did go off on the 4th strike. The 3 & 4 strike was in another piece of brass that had a cruch fit in the chamber. Strike #3 also set the shoulder back about .006" Another Axis owner/reloader confirmed my test results.

April 28, 2014, 02:13 PM	#2
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Were the primers fully dimpled by the firing pin impact? If so, then they may have got contaminated with water or some other liquid. If they were not fully dented. . . . Maybe the cases were full length sized too much and the shoulder set back way too far for the chamber. When this happens, the firing pin doesn't dent primers very much because they're too far away from the bolt face when the firing pin tip smacks them and they're not dented enough. Another cause could be not enough firing pin tip protrusion from the bolt face. It should be at least .060" for total reliability. And finally, in last place, is a weak firing pin spring. All the above assumes you put powder in the case before seating the bullet. Such anomolies have happened to us humans.

April 28, 2014, 02:14 PM	#3
45_auto Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2011 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 1,399	More likely "dud seating" than "dud primers". If the primers aren't fully seated in the case, then the firing pin will use lots of it's energy moving them forward in the primer pocket before starting to dent them. There will be enough energy left to dent the primer, but not enough to set it off. Once a primer has been struck without it going off, the pellet of priming compound under the anvil is usually crushed and no amount of repeated strikes will set it off.

April 28, 2014, 02:19 PM	#4
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	45 Auto, incomplete seating is typically fixed by the firing pin impact driving them all the way home. If your cases are headspaced right for the chamber, there'll only be a few thousandths head clearance; distance from bolt face to case head when the case is all the way forward stopping against its headspace reference. So the primer's going to protrude no more than that past the case head when the firing pin smacks it. I had a discussion about this years ago with someone and had to demonstrate with three rifles that this happened when primers were not seated at least flush with the case head. Others have since related similar issues. Most primers need at least a .020" deep dimple to fire them.

April 29, 2014, 08:07 AM	#6
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	45 auto, those links have incomplete information; neither address these critical factors: Were the primers too big in diameter (or primer pockets too small in diameter) to easily seat all the way from normal force of the primer seater? Was the firing pin protrusion and its spring strength at factory specs? *Was the case and chamber headspace correct so head clearance was OK? I ask because none of my tests failed to fire a rifle primer that was seated .025" or so out past the case head in chambers with cases within dimensional specs. Some empty cases were checked for incomplete seated primer protrusion after chambering and none stuck out more than about .003" which was typical head clearance on cases tested. Test firing inert primers in primed cases had all of them driven into full depth in their primer pockets with extra deep indentations. And I think the second link only addressed handguns; not rifles.

April 29, 2014, 08:14 AM	#7
45_auto Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2011 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 1,399	Not a big deal, he doesn't have to check the seating of his primers if he doesn't want to. I simply prefer to start my troubleshooting at the most common, simplest level before assuming bad mechanical parts like dies, firing pins, or springs.

April 29, 2014, 12:36 PM	#8
Mike1234 Junior member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: Alamo City Posts: 356	I had a problem with duds in my Savage Axis in .223 Rem. The duds were XM193 Federal LC. BEFORE ANYONE SAYS THAT'S DUMB... the Axis is OVERBUILT for .223... same beefy chamber as for .30-06. Turns out the issue was with the firing pin which dimpled the primer just fine but the velocity was a bit slow. I sent the bolt in for service and it's fine now.

April 29, 2014, 01:27 PM	#9
mags2079 Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2013 Posts: 13	thanks for the info. the bolt, firing pin etc. is all factory spec. could just be bad seating, but great info

April 29, 2014, 02:23 PM	#10
Mike1234 Junior member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: Alamo City Posts: 356	I assumed mine was "factory spec" too since it was a brand new rifle... but it wasn't so.

April 29, 2014, 11:06 PM	#11
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I shot my Bulldog 44 pistol for the first time in years. I had forgot about the transfer bar, you have to keep pulling the trigger even after the hammer lets go or it does not get up high enough or only partial. Primer was dimpled but not enough (gave it lots of time before checking it!) Cycled it back in, made sure I kept trigger back and boom (as did the rest of them). I had not thought you could dimple a primer that much and not have it go boom but you sure can!

April 30, 2014, 02:02 PM	#12
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Spray bolt good with WD 40. The firing pin is slow on velocity.

May 1, 2014, 09:52 PM	#15
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I love it. Never thought about using it but then had no reason not to. For sure its off the list!