Shooting Involving Open Carry Proponent

[Ringolevio]

One of the major points stressed in CCW class (and which every armed citizen -- CC or OC -- should fully grasp) is that carrying a gun doesn't make you a freelance cop.

Mr. Rodgers should have also grasped that it doesn't make you Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt, either.

Those of us who carry should strive to be conscientious about our own manners. Remember the old saying, "An armed society is a polite society."

(I also think we should strive to wear a smile and to laugh off even an intentional insult or provocation.)

But trying to give others a "lesson in manners" brings to mind another old saying: "Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time, and it annoys the pig."

And how do we know how "politely" Rodgers delivered his "manners lesson"?

[markj]

markj, I thought your original post was justifying the behavior of Philadelphia PD toward open carriers. If I misunderstood, I apologize

Isnt that a different thread altogether? In this thread Isaw a guy open a door, get no responce from the guy went in he waits and follows guy saying something I couldnt read, guy OC gets shot by guy he held a door open for.

When idiots collide?

In the other thread I said if a cop pulls a gun and tells me to get down Iwill comply immediatly no matter what I think is right. Settle up later with a lawyer if need be but not on a street where the cop can shoot me.

Then folks went nutso, some wanted to dive behind cover and shoot back.....
I will always comply with an armed policeman. I wont OC in town cause it upsets folks and a cop may be taken away from somethjing important to question my OC. The permit allows for a concealment, I do so. Why waste a cops time? Why argue with a cop has a gun on you? I dont see that as being productive behavior.

So I can say that this shows OC sure dont help a guy out in a SD situation. The element of surprise was not his.....

[MLeake]

I wasn't referring to arguing with a cop, nor advocating doing so. I was referring to your reference to the cop's approach with gun drawn solely due to OC (in the Fiorino case).

Rogers got himself into his problem due to his behavior and demeanor, which may very well have been amplified in the shooter's mind (we won't know unless and until they find the shooter) by the fact that Rogers was being aggressive and displaying stalker behaviors while openly carrying.

Rogers: waits outside convenience store, offended over lack of thanks, and follows shooter to car.

Fiorino: walking between his business and his vehicle.

I can understand a person feeling threatened in one scenario; I cannot in the other. I don't know if the shooter was justified, because we don't know what Rogers was saying or how the shooter perceived his behavior. I do know that Sgt Daugherty responded solely to the gun, and not Fiorino's demeanor or behavior, when he made the initial decision to both draw his gun AND aim it at Fiorino.

[Nilloc]

There's no way on earth I'd ever stop at a convenient store in Southwest Atlanta in the middle of the night for anything.....much less then demand a "thank you" for someone who I held the door open for.

[C0untZer0]

My thoughts on OC are completely changing as I see more and more people do stupid things while OC.

This whole thing with a bunch of OCers going to a Starbucks in California wearing unloaded handguns. What did that accomplish except motivate the politicians in California to propose bills outlawing open carry.

[C5rider]

Tonight! On a security camera near you! WHEN IDIOTS COLLIDE!!!!

I see four main facts:

Grungy guy sits outside and waits for you. Then follows you toward your car wearing a firearm. Demanding that you say, "Thank you for his kindness of all things!" -1 for OC guy.

Leather jacket guy could have simply said, "Sorry, Thanks!" and we'd never have heard about this incident or heard of either one of these guys. -1 for the leather jacket guy.

LJG LEAVES the scene. This tells me he doesn't care that he just shot someone or, he's possibly one of those guys who we all strive to protect our "legal" guns from. -1

The fact that OC guy never even reached for his gun (whether or not he ever draws it) tells me that he wears it to be seen, not used. May be why CCW doesn't appeal to him. -1

The way I see it, this whole scenario is frought with examples of what NOT to do.

I know this will not bode well but, the way I see it, the best we could hope for is for each of these guys' wives to beat the living stuffing out of each of them for the stunts they pulled and put a little bit if maturity in each of them! I'd be of the mindset that if THAT were the case, and they each learned their lessons, I say, "Case closed!"

I'm with WildAlaska, ALWAYS obey the hincky-meter!

[langenc]

I only read a few posts.

I wonder how the shoote would have been taken by the shooter and all commenting here if he had left his gun home??

[secret_agent_man]

There's no way on earth I'd ever stop at a convenient store in Southwest Atlanta in the middle of the night

That really hits the nail on the head.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

So if you are the "No thank you" guy in this scenario, how would you handle such an approach by someone open-carrying? Obviously, the first thing I would want to do is apologize and try to deescalate the situation - and I think most here would agree with that approach though.

Say that isn't effective though and the person wants to continue the conversation - do you turn your back on them and walk away? If you stay there, at what point do you decide there might be an imminent threat. From an open holster, even a relatively untrained person can draw and shoot in about 2 seconds. Let's say you are keyed up and highly observant - it is going to take most people about 0.2 sec to notice, process and respond to an action even in a state of high alertness. That doesn't leave a lot of a time buffer for decision making.

[Brian Pfleuger]

He's at a convenience store. It shouldn't take but 10 seconds or less to get back to his car. Verbally make efforts to deescalate without ever stopping on the way back to the car. Get in as soon as you get there, drive away.

[secret_agent_man]

and the person wants to continue the conversation

I have not seen the video, but I suspect this was not a "conversation," but more of a confrontation with a nut case.

[Wagonman]

I am very much against OC. I get paid to OC. The higher state of vigilance required to open carry frankly isn't worth it for citizens or off-duty Coppers. I mention off duty Coppers just to be clear I don't have a do what I say not what I do attitude. The main thing I do while on duty would get you pinched for brandishing. When I am going through crowds I hold on to top of gun and release button to deter possible drunken encounters.

I am 110% in favor of RKBA... wish Illinois would pass CCW legislation, spoke out vehemently when the president of my union came out as not pro- CCW, even so much as playing the "don't worry guys, we can carry off-duty" card. So my Bona fides are in order.

[markj]

So if you are the "No thank you" guy in this scenario, how would you handle such an approach by someone open-carrying?

I posted this before. I would pull a buck out of my front pocket (cash for tipping pocket) handed it to him and say Vaya con dios El Hombre and walked away from him.

That gun he so proudly displayed did nothing in this SD situation, it may have escalated the entire thing.

Mleake, the PA guy was doing what he had a right to do, the chief of police has issued a directive to his personell to do this I dont think it is right to do this to a guy OCing but it is done and will be done. So why not conceal it and avoid the confrontation you know will come if you OC? People just dont like seeing a gun strapped on a persone hip. Like CA it could backfire and be made against the law.

I see other "rights" being taken away by legislation, Denver CO has a new law on modified motorcycle exhaust systems.

Tread litely or the "rights" you so love may be taken away by a simple vote. We have a thing about the majority rules not the minority altho I see the minority getting the say so a lot more theses days...

[spacemanspiff]

My "mindset" (god I hate that word) is to run, or beg for my life, or do anything I can to avoid confrontation

But how will you prove that you have gargantuan manparts to the rest of the flock?? The females will never know you are genetically superior unless you strut your stuff like a peacock.

[Wagonman]

Spliff.... I just sprayed coffee on iPad

[Aguila Blanca]

The original video seems to have gone away. The link now takes me to a video about IRS forms or some such nonsense.

Does anyone know if the original video is still available somewhere? Google fu is weak ...

[CMichael]

I can't find the video.

[Evan Thomas]

Try the link posted by thump_rrr: http://bcove.me/nyqsde5g. It works for me.

Now that I've seen it, it's hard for me to see anything in Mr. Rodgers' actions, at least (granted that we don't know what he may have said), that would justify a response involving deadly force. He pretty much stands there with his hands in his pockets until he's shot.

[Doc Intrepid]

Rude behavior is nearly an epidemic in US society today. It has become the 'new normal'.

It's difficult to differentiate intentionally belligerent behavior from unintentional and mindless rudeness because the latter is so prevalent.

Anyone who carries a firearm and who feels even remotely slighted when faced with rude behavior - including being flipped off while driving, or cussed out as well as simply having courtesy remain unacknowledged - ought not to be carrying a firearm. It's a sure bet that you will often be "dis-respected" in one way or another, and perhaps several times a day - and if you take it upon yourself to educate everyone who disrespects you, you'll have little time to do anything else.

People who carry guns need to have thicker skins.


I've often voiced the opinion that if we ever lose the right to carry firearms in the US it won't be because of the anti's - it will be because of bad behavior and poor decision-making on the part of those who carry.

[Doc Intrepid]

Originally Posted by C0untZer0

"My thoughts on OC are completely changing as I see more and more people do stupid things while OC.

This whole thing with a bunch of OCers going to a Starbucks in California wearing unloaded handguns. What did that accomplish except motivate the politicians in California to propose bills outlawing open carry."

...hits the nail on the head.

After reviewing articles published in papers nationwide, I'm having a hard time coming up with any practical advantage to open carry. I simply don't see what it accomplishes. It does not deter crimes against the carrier - and now adversaries know you are armed; it is a matter for concern for most civilians who don't carry and wonder why the carrier is armed, and what his intentions are; and it frequently provides an advantage to our political adversaries.

Open carry is provocative to most of the rest of society. Just because something is legal does not make it wise to do it.

[Wagonman]

Doc, you make logical, well thought out, and cogent points.........knock it off

[Doc Intrepid]

Okay!