Did I over-react or under-react?

[Justme]

+1, well said jollyroger.

[TWB]

JollyRoger,
It seems that you have a preference for your own brand of more politically correct paranoia. No, I wasn't referring to you, at all. At the time of my post, I had not read your post. This discussion is not about you.

It's all about judgment and awareness. I'll err on the side of watching closely anyone that piques my interest. You err on the PC side that says it is impossible to ascertain any information by observation, based on appearance, either in physical characteristics or behavior. I see no reason to point out the fallacies of such a belief system.

Quite frankly, your assertion that my approach of watching anyone, based on well considered criteria, in any way adversely affects their rights is a bit far fetched. If you, (out of prejudice...pre judgment) want to label me a bigot, knock yourself out, but your assertion makes more of a point about you than me.

If you are interested in testing your theory, testing grounds full of folks I would watch and you would not are available in thousands of cities, worldwide. Personally, I'll avoid those areas and folks, and you can test to your heart's desire. We'll see who remains intact longer.

I still believe azredhawk44 acted reasonably and responsibly. Besides, he tolerated me profiling the contents of a backpack in Scottsdale, and didn't call me names.

twb

[Tanzer]

I'm not sure about what you mean by "my way of doing things"... Maybe you thought I was supporting profiling? Not sure...

No, you went off on a rant about how improper it is to to think of anyone as being any different than anyone else, or to assume that someone's intentions are different simply due to their mannerisms. In doing so, you integrated the two and implied that it is improper to distrust anyone because of the way they are acting. I, among others, cannot agree.
You then went on to say;

Quote:
LE is still basically a reactionary tool (Jolly, correct me if I'm wrong here) in my estimation. If they don't get enough stuff, quickly enough, it does no good.

To which I replied;

Doesn't that fly in the face of everything you just said?

Because reaction doesn't prevent anything.
They just caught a pedophile outside Vegas (saw it on the early news - arresting cops made a statement). How? He was ACTING way out of sorts for a normal traffic stop. As he got more nervous, they questioned him in a way that broke his barriers. They knew something was up with this guy.

To date there has been no terrorist attack or averted attempted attack by terrorists of international origin which did not target NYC, LA, or DC.

Wonderful. To date, no one has broken into my house in the middle of the night. They have however, done this in my home town. The people in question, domestic, foreign or whatever, are opportunists. Who would have ever thought of the federal builing on OK City as a target? Just because you live in Red Oak VA, or Scottsdale AZ doesn't mean you have nothing to worry about.

I don't think the OP's intention was to specifically target Middle Easterners as much as it was to include them into a; "Hey, this fits into a category/MO of problematic situations that raise a red flag with me" notion of self and public preservation.
This post started with a few small "hints" of profiling that were basically overlooked, and the post went on to discuss whether (original question) he acted appropriately. He mentioned his feelings, and how he reacted, but did not ask whether or not we all agree with his personal views regarding Mid-Easterners. I know it plays a role, but it's not the main point.
Truth be told, I'm as guilty as anyone else for letting it go off on a tangent. It seems we'll have to agree to disagree on this part of the issue and go back on topic, or waste a lot of time going back and forth.

azredhawk44 (not being a wise-guy here),
As for whether or not you over/underreacted, you have an obvious split because some will view it as preservatory, and some will see it as profiling. Is there anything to debate other than whether or not it was politically correct?

[azredhawk44]

azredhawk44 (not being a wise-guy here),
As for whether or not you over/underreacted, you have an obvious split because some will view it as preservatory, and some will see it as profiling. Is there anything to debate other than whether or not it was politically correct?

Not really... I was looking mostly for an "appropriate level of response" type of answer.

Do I:
1. Go home and hole up in my nuclear shelter bunker with 100K rounds of .308 to fend off the zombies that are sure to come after the terrorist attack at walmart?
2. Whip out my ccw and level them on the spot?
3. Call 911 right away?
4. Notify store management, do my business, and leave?
5. Do nothing?

Each of those responses carries a political value as well as a situational value, and any response chosen then has political costs that are inherently tied to it. Discussion of the situational response cannot happen without discussion of the political forces backing each decision.

I appreciate hearing everyone's perspective on the issue, and I think that I responded with an appropriate decision. I'm happy with it... and those of you who aren't happy with it... can respond to your own situations that come up as you see fit.

[sharpshot08]

I would have done the same thing. You cant be to careful in todays society.

[Capt. Charlie]

Profiling can be a valuable tool, both for law enforcement and for the average citizen looking to protect himself, but it's also always been highly controversial. In some cases, national origin or race can (emphasis on "can", as opposed to "does") play a role in profiling, but it should always play a small role. Other observations like the "hinky factor" should always take precedence.

Where we run into trouble is when we limit our observations to too few factors, and national origin or race plays too big a role.

This is a valid topic for debate, so long as it doesn't deteriorate into racism or other name calling.

From the Forum Rules:

If you have a problem with a Member's religion, creed, national origin, sex, politics, associations or personal hygiene, take it to email.

I see no direct attack on any particular TFL member here, but keep in mind that we have over 50,000 members representing many beliefs and ethnic backgrounds.

Continue the debate, but keep in mind that this thread is riding the razor's edge.

[spacemanspiff]

Total paranoid fantasy

Not if you're Jack Bauer.

[mordis]

All of you anti racial profiling people, none of your arguments changes the fact that America is in a state of war. Declared or not, its still war. Your wishy washy pc crap, still doesnt change the fact that our enemies are middleeastern. We have every right and reason to suspect every single one of them, that is in our country. There whole religion is one of hatred and evil, not a muslim, then die infidel. Sure christianity had a dark era a few hundred years ago, but you dont see us going around suicide bombing people.

Unfortunatly as long as the great majority of our enemies continue to be middle eastern, then racial profileing is the only way to ensure safety. I personaly feel the gov't was correct in there actions during ww2.

How do i know that middle eastern dude, with the backpack isnt a terrorist, considering what is common knowldge about there religion. How do i know that the arabic guy at the qiwki mart that is taking my money at the registor and shaking my hand as i leave, isnt thinking in the back of his mind, What is the fastest way to kill this farking zionist, Alah akbar. All the while shaking my hand and smiling.

I really dont like the fact that i am unable to trust any middle eastern people, i run into. Prior to 9/11 i met some nice ones, but after that, i just couldnt look at them the same again. Untill they cease wantin to kill all non muslims, end there stupid jihad, and stop using the quran as the basis for there misguided religion i cant trust them.

Sure racial profiling is wrong, but in a state of war, declared or not it is amongst the best ways to keep us safe. Considering that most of our enemies are of middle eastern origin.

[Wildalaska]

In some cases, national origin or race can (emphasis on "can", as opposed to "does") play a role in profiling, but it should always play a small role.

Cap, Im compelled to disagree, there are times when it should reasonably play a bigger role.

But there have to be more factors than race, creed etc.

Which is hinkier?

A blonde chick with dirty clothes standing near the Alaska pipeline (in a public area of course) with a backpack, when you see her, she waves...

Or

A dark skinned mustached male with a backpack getting out of a car near the pipeline, two other males in the car and when you spy the dark skinned male, he acts....hinky

WildnowchangethelocaltoarivernearnowherestrategicandneitherarehinkyatallAlaska ™

[PT111]

The blonde chick of course. She is from californicate and a member of Greenpeace ready to blow up the pipeline to put Exxon out of business trying to clean up the mess. The wave is just to throw you off. The three males are industrial spies trying to steal the secrets of how to build such a pipeline across the desert.

[finalrequiem]

I never said anything about it being wrong to look at someones mannerisms in trying to figure out what they are all about. I also didn't say it was wrong to think that people were different... I was talking about how silly it is to think that keeping an eye on everyone that looks (hair color, skin color, build, etc.) a certain way is really going to keep you safe. We aren't at war with middle-easterners, we are at war with people who hate freedom and our way of life. Yes, Islamic radicals make up a big part of that. Are you going to feel better about things if we stop every would be terrorist that looks like a Middle-Easterner but let the one North Korean\Chinese\Liberian\Venezuelan\American slip through and murder thousands all because our LE was looking for the wrong things?
Exhibiting the traits\mannerisms of a terrorist is one thing. Being guilty because you look like you might be from a certain part of the world is another. This has nothing to do with being PC. I am not worried about someone getting their feelings hurt. I think it is WRONG and violates what is different about the U.S.A. to go around calling the police because of someones race or religion.

By the way, I don't have a problem with how the OP reacted. Why? Because he didn't come on here and said "I saw me some 'o them thar muslims staking out WalMart with a bomb, did I do the right thing". If you have a gut feeling about something, go with it. You may be right, you may be wrong. What I disagree with is the attitude that deciding someone is bad because of how the look is ok and the idea that it actually does anyone any good.

[Tanzer]

Okay, I've created a mathematical alogorithm that proves this thread belongs on the political forum (see attachment).

If P is substituted for L (P is always -), then the result under the radical will be either a + or - whole #. So as long as you are wrong you get (- / -) under the radical (this is possible) which equals a (+), so the radical can result in a defined answer. This may result in - common sense if you are correct, meaning that many (depending on O) will say you make no sense.
Of course, O1 may result in A being right or wrong, so if you have your own opinion it only makes sense to you.

Now substitute Tactics + Training (2T) for L;
If multiple opinions are put into the equation then Op = T+T = 2T
2T - 2T = 0, and a fraction with a 0 numerator is unidentified and thus, invalid. A single opinion will always result in a (-) under the radical and so be undefined.

So, as you can clearly see, this thread belongs in the political forum

[Tanzer]

Darn, All that work and I can't put the formula in an attachable format!

[sw_florida]

is a place of suspicious activities. Had it happened in another store a manager would deal with the situation, when tipped. My personal belief is that they were stealing kid's panties. Allah makes you do strange things.

[DougO83]

All of you anti racial profiling people, none of your arguments changes the fact that America is in a state of war. Declared or not, its still war. Your wishy washy pc crap, still doesnt change the fact that our enemies are middleeastern.

And Korean, and every other nationality known to this planet. Some of our biggest enemies are our own citizens. Look at all the school shootings, Luby's, and the OKC bombing. Then there's JFK and the UT tower. Allperpetrated by American citizens.

We have every right and reason to suspect every single one of them, that is in our country.

No, we do not. You never have a right to discriminate against anybody. We did it to many Asian-Americans who had nothign to do with Pearl Harbor, we did it to millions of Native Americans from the day settlers landed here. It is not a right, it is ridiculous.

There whole religion is one of hatred and evil, not a muslim, then die infidel. Sure christianity had a dark era a few hundred years ago, but you dont see us going around suicide bombing people.

Please, do not use the word "we" when referring to us Christians if you are going to spout such hateful drivel.

How do i know that middle eastern dude, with the backpack isnt a terrorist, considering what is common knowldge about there religion.

How do you know that the middle-aged white guy walking around with his family isn't on the egde of a nervous breakdown from his screaming five-yr-old and is about to go on a shooting spree?

How do i know that the arabic guy at the qiwki mart that is taking my money at the registor and shaking my hand as i leave, isnt thinking in the back of his mind, What is the fastest way to kill this farking zionist, Alah akbar. All the while shaking my hand and smiling.

How does he know you're not a racist, redneck moron just looking for a reason to pull "ol Bessie" out of the pick-up and kill him?

I really dont like the fact that i am unable to trust any middle eastern people, i run into. Prior to 9/11 i met some nice ones, but after that, i just couldnt look at them the same again.

You should seriously seek some couch time for that, buddy. I don't seem to have this problem.

Untill they cease wantin to kill all non muslims, end there stupid jihad, and stop using the quran as the basis for there misguided religion i cant trust them.

They don't want to kill all non-Muslims or I'd be dead by now.

Sure racial profiling is wrong, but in a state of war, declared or not it is amongst the best ways to keep us safe. Considering that most of our enemies are of middle eastern origin.

Yet it doesn't work.

Also, not all Middle Easterners are Muslim. These terms are not interchangeable. I have some very good friends from Iraq and Saudi and the UAE and they are Lutherans. I also have some co-workers from Africa who are Muslim. You cannot determine someone's religion based on ethnicity.

[Tanzer]

LOCATION ALGORITHM



Got the watered-down version. Check it out, it works;

L = Pc * N (+ / -) A / Ox * L (radical)
Let L = Location
Let Ox = Op (multiple opinions) or O1 (one opinion)
Let Pc = Political correctness
Let N = Number of responses
Let (+ / -) A = Answer correct or incorrect

Assume; L can be either:
(Tactics and training) = T+T = 2T
(Political) = Always negative
Too much time on my hands? It's better than arguing.

[DougO83]

+10000 to Tanzer hahaha

[mordis]

Doug if i need to seek couch time, im not the only person who does, alot of other americans need to as well, seeing as im not the only one whofeels this way. I don not feel i need any counciling any ways, i dont have any emotional problems, i dont have depression and cry all night I just dont trust them, and i probably ever wont. 19 of them killed 3000 of us.

SUre there are non islamist amongst the arabic people, but that still dosent change the fact that the vast majority are infact islamic. Its not really the people i fear but as much the religion. I wouldnt have a problem with them if there religion didnt go spouting off about killing off non believers and murdering and enslaving all the zionist countries around them. Sure that guy at the qwiki mart might be peacfull, but he still subscribes to that religion, and while right now he dosent want to kill me, he may be more easily swayed to help those that want to due to his fanatical religion.

[EngineerMG]

I think you handled that pretty well, might have called 911 and found out for sure but hind sight is always 20/20. I dont know how i would have reacted, i have been the victim of 2 suicide bombers, 1 car bombing and several roadside IED`s but after 3 OIF tours its bound to happen. I have been out on the street in Iraq on a daily basis and we have been lucky enough to stop several attacks in the planning phase. It sounds like your 2 guys may have been on a dry run but who can say for sure. Either way we all need to be aware of our surroundings and on the lookout for suspicious activity.

[fawcettlee]

People need to reconsider their stance that Christianity isn't as murderous as Islam when its hijacked by loonies.
Are people forgetting the hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims who were slaughtered by Christians in Bosnia and Kosovo? The death and rape camps where Muslims were either starved or raped? That was just a decade ago folks. NOT a couple hundred years ago that some people were citing as when Christianity last persecuted Muslims.
Muslims certainly had a beef with the Christian nations for moving so slowly to stop the slaughter but to their credit, individual Muslim countries didn't stoop so low as to engage in racial profiling to protect themselves.
If you want to wrap yourself in some mantle of Christianity and proclaim that just because you believe in Christ, you're a white knight, whilst demonizing all Muslims for believing in Allah, you really need to think some more.
(and for the record, I'm neither.)

[Shadi Khalil]

Being a "middle eastern looking guy" isnt easy. You cant be in a rush on the subway, you cant speak in arabic on your cell phone on a train, in an airport. Forget about ever praying in public, thats just asking for a trip to a black site. I have a fear that one day something in my daily activity might arouse someones supicions and I get a visit from "homeland security" what if there is a mix up in names? What if I fit the discrption of someone else? What they dont want to clear those things up before they take me away?

I once got held up in the airport for 6 hours because my middle name and my first name made up the name of someone on some list. I sat in a little room on a small metal chair for sx hours while four men from an unknown agency insisted I tell them I was someone I was not. Thank god someone somewhere straighted it before they decided do whatever it is they had planned for that guy on the list. Bottem line, I was detained with no access to a phone, lawyer, bathroom, food, water or my medication. In the end they gave me a hotel room, an new flight and told me not to go crying to a lawyer because they'd find something on me. Lovely system we have here, I'm glad every one is feels safe, who cares about the hard workin Arab-American. BTW, I am a second gen. american, I've never lived outside the country or been arrested. God only knows what happens to the others......

Since 9/11 i have felt like even though I was born here Im pretty much a unwanted guest. Sometimes I think alot people in this country would be happy if we just packed up our brown skin, mustaches and took it back to where from we came.

[jabotinsky]

Having been a resident of NYC and responder on the day the towers went down, I can tell you it will be hard for me to ever forgive the Saudis, they're the ones who flew the planes, period. I've never understood why we invaded Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia. But I'm never gonna hate all Arabs or Muslims, that's just plain wrong.

It was interesting that only Japanese citizens were interred in America during WWII, not Germans.

Profiling will only work a few years longer, anyway. They'll eventually get a blond female former Beider-Meinhoff to wear the suicide belt, and then everybody has to wait longer at the airport...

[jabotinsky]

In the midst of defending our way of life from Islamic extremists we must make sure the rights of Arab-Americans like Teifman are protected.

[Capt. Charlie]

This thread ran its course months ago, and now it gets resurrected with the apparent purpose of pitting Christianity against Islam?

I don't think so .

Closed, before the inevitable free-for-all starts.