Do you get involved ? (Redux)

[Slugthrower]

As I was the reason for the premature locking of the original post, I feel compelled to reopen this discussion. I personally apologize to you Lurper. What I posted on the original thread was uncalled for and beneath the standards set for all of us here on TFL. It was extremely rash of me. Please forgive my previous comments sir. You are to be commended for having the ability to think calmly before engaging in a very dangerous situation.

Capt Charlie was graceful enough to not whip my behind for my childish outburst. Thank you sir.

Now with that said let us return to a civil discussion that will be productive for all of the fine members here at TFL.

Video: http://www.filecabi.net/video/07190513_attack.html

[raymond-]

in a heartbeat. armed or not.

[Playboypenguin]

Definately, armed or not armed I would become involved. There is a time to think out every possible recourse and a time to just act. This would have been the later.

I would love to see if this "Slim build, 5'9" tall" man could fair as well agaist someone 40yrs old 6' 205lb as he did against a frail old guy.

I would dial 911, the approach the guy shouting, if he failed to stop and flee I would become involved physically while keeping aware of how those around me where reacting. If it appeared I was going to be jumped by the other people around (because they were in on it) I would then resort to my weapon if greatly outnumber.

[wolfdog45]

I'm 6' 225lb expert hand to hand combat, I would have done something to get that guy off the old man.
If those other people were in on it, and they start coming for me, and if I could not take them out with my hands I would then use my weapon only if I had to.
I am not going to stand by and see a WW2 vet be treated that way.

[mvpel]

I'm wired to intervene, I've found out on an occasion or two. Or maybe re-wired, by my "socialization" experiences in school. I couldn't not intervene. One reason why I moved to a state that respects the right to self-defense.

[OuTcAsT]

No question about it, I would intervene, and only hope that someone would do the same for me if i were in that situation.

[Johannes_Paulsen]

Honestly -- it depends.

If I were armed, and with my cousin who always carries, I would think almost certainly the two of us would do something.

If I were by myself and armed, probably (at least, I'd like to think so. I've never been in such a situation and don't honestly know how I'd react. Depends on how I view the tactical situation.)

If I were with my fiancee, probably not.

If (flash forward a few years,) I were with my child, almost certainly not. My primary responsibility is to keep my loved ones safe, not any stranger, no matter how innocent or weak or deserving of help that stranger is. If I tried to intervene and failed, they would be in an extremely dangerous situation.

[threegun]

Rear naked choke only without the tap out. Man that guy needs to assume room tempurature. My BP is crazy high right now after that video.

[Lurper]

For the record:
In the other thread, I did not say don't get involved. It was the level of involvement. I am quite capable of handling myself armed or not. However, there is something called common sense that needs to be used in these situations. My first post was to say that I would dial 911 and yell at the BG to stop and that the police were on the way. Don't matter how you slice it, that is getting involved. I also said that his reaction would dictate what I did next.

But, it is imperative that you assess the situation before you go charging in there like the cavalry. We know (after the fact) that at least one of the bystanders (the woman) was actually an accomplice, but let's focus on before the fact. What I see is several people there doing nothing. I don't know what their involvement in the situation is, nor with whom their sympathies lie. Although by their actions, I can guess that they don't sypathize with the victim. If I am unarmed, that means I will have to potentially face 8-10 guys in a brawl. While I could hold my own against 3 or maybe 4, a crowd that large is a different story. Add to that the fact that we have no idea how many are armed or not. I help no one by going in there and getting beaten to death. I can be a good witness and help in the prosecution, I can render first aid to the victim, also just yelling at the BG and telling him the police are on the way may stop the attack. But, my first obligation is to my family and getting home alive. It's no different than a firefighter or EMT, they ensure their safety first, then the patient's.

If I am armed, the situation is even worse. In many states, the beating would be justification for using deadly force. However, now I am faced with a situation that may force me to have to shoot several people. If the bystanders get involved and are armed, the situation gets even trickier. The risk is too great to just go charging in there without trying to guage what the reaction of the BG and the bystanders is.

[MacGille]

Lurper, a blast of OC to the attacker would have stopped the event. There are time when LTL is a good thing.

[Groundhog]

I'd like to know from any of you who have either been in a situation like that or have trained for one, if you have time to do the assessment Lurper suggests? It would seem to me that a person could asses a situation fairly quickly (although possibly not accurately). Just wonderin'.

[Mark B]

I would have gotten involved. I can't say to what extent, but I too am not capable if ignoring stuff like that.

[threegun]

Lurper,

Those who believe that they can "hold there own" against 3 and 4 attackers in hand to hand need not forget what happened to that large Highway patrolman who died at the hands of 3 small men. I know some seriously bad arsed guys and I'm sure many on this board are highly skilled at hand to hand however a coordinated attack by 3 to 4 men at the same time is virtually impossible to defeat.

As a teen myself and 5 other boys ages 12-17 were able to subdue our sensei. At first he whipped use good. Two strikes (no follow thru of course) and we would be out of the fight (have to sit). When we all attacked at once he was toast. We just took him to the ground and basically did like the croc hunter and weight him down with bodies. I can only imagine if we were adults and it took a real KO strike to stop us.

I'm not trying to belittle your abilities just telling you what 6 kids did to a multi degreed black belt/ full contact fighter/ 6'03" 230 plus/ dude.

[Lurper]

3
Don't misunderstand my statement. I was not saying that I would want to given a choice. But in aikido we train with multiple attackers all of the time, so I have experience with that was my main point. If you read the post closely, you will see that I was advocating not getting involved because of the odds, not getting involved because of my skill.

I avoid confrontation at all costs, not because of lack of ability - BTDT many times. But because of the responsibility I bear to myself, my family and society. I am responsible for my own security, for returning safely to my family and to exercise good judgement before instigating a confrontation that could potentially dramatically alter many lives in this case.

Lurper, a blast of OC to the attacker would have stopped the event. There are time when LTL is a good thing.

That's a perfect example of fatal logic. You have no guarantee that OC would do anything, ever. There are plenty of cases where it has failed. Also, you still run the risk of escalating the situation, having to OC everyone there and possibly bringing OC to a gunfight. LTL is not the answer and it is certainly not the magic bullet that some propenents claim. Regardless of what you carry, your mind is your most powerful weapon. You should train to use it to the same extent you train to use the weapon of your choice.

[Playboypenguin]

Those who believe that they can "hold there own" against 3 and 4 attackers in hand to hand need not forget what happened to that large Highway patrolman who died at the hands of 3 small men

Whether you are a self defense "expert" or just a street brawler, the first rule of hand to hand fighting is numbers always win. This is not the movies where bad guys position themselves in key locations then slowly move in one at a time.

Even if you can kill a man with just you pinky finger, you only have two pinkies.

[badbob]

I would have to jump in with both feet. Of course, with my luck, the older guy was the only 91 year old car thief in existence and the other guy was trying to get his car back.

badbob

[Timeframe]

Shot to the back of the head,with fist,that is the vision center of the brain.
Then keep hitting,don't stop until he drops.Just like he did to his victum

[Glenn E. Meyer]

IMHO - worth what you paid for it - entering a physical altercation is foolish. Punching the guy, the Cobra Clutch, etc. are really setting yourself up. Thinking that your martial arts training will neutralize several opponents with knives in those close quarters is for the movies.

You have no idea if the BG, for example, has a knife - getting out of a choke hold with a knife is something that people have trained in. Punching someones' skull with your fist - break your knuckles, palm strike - no guarantee it takes the guy out. Also, you will be approaching the guy in a confined space from the video. You won't be a surprise.

I will opine, and be flamed for it, that some of this is posturing.

Distance is your friend. I see several distance strategies.

1. Call the cops
2. Call the cops and inform BG loudly that you have called the cops
3. Call the cops and inform BG, if he doesn't flee - OC him. I'm just going to ignore Lurper's views on this and not debate them. They fly against the efficacy studies of OC and the views of every trainer I've had.
4. This is a lethal force situation under many state statutes. I think you would be justified to challenge the BG forcefully with gun drawn. The typical verbalization would be of the order of Don't Move - get on the ground.

If he failed to - then you have a reasonable case for shooting him. HOWEVER, it may be a difficult shot in the circumstances - something to think about. If you do have reasonable distance - you can deal with others better than when you have the BG in the Cobra Cultch between cars or rolling on the ground.

The contact strategies are quite foolish even if you are a physical giant. A knife in the guts and pulled negates your muscles. I have heard from a cop the most scary thing he ever saw was an eight year old girl, out of her mind, waving a big chef's knife in a rapid figure eight and coming his way quick. Could he physically handle her - sure. Would a big chop in his arm to the bone, take him out the fight and maybe career - think about.

[spacemanspiff]

But, it is imperative that you assess the situation before you go charging in there like the cavalry

My conscience wouldn't allow me to hesitate just so I could calculate the odds. A life is at risk, I will act.

[markj]

Those who believe that they can "hold there own" against 3 and 4 attackers in hand to hand need not forget what happened to that large Highway patrolman who died at the hands of 3 small men.

True, true, too bad it happened to a good officer like that.

As a bouncer. well former I should say,I had to stop many fights as this. Some inside a few outside. 90% of the fighters stopped when I got in between, the other 10% needed some "persuasion" the leather sap works wonders in this area. I do recommend this as a back pocket type of offensive man stopper, it does work, tested and proven I still have my old brass knuckles too, large and heavy, used them a couple times too. No need to pull a gun and shoot if you have something that will work with out killing.

The crowd thing is something to worry about, many years ago, I lived in the bad part of town cause it was cheap, a guy had told my niece he was going to burn down every white persons house in that neighborhood. So I see this punk walking down my street, I also have to mention my wife at the time was an invalid, she had a brain anyurism and was paralyzed from the operation, anyway, I ask him if he was going to do as he said, he runs off. Next thing I know is 25 or so teens show up wanting to kick my a$$, I pull a weapon and sit on the porch call 911. Cops show up and ask the teens if I pointed the gun at anyone they all said no. Crowd was dispersed, we moved. I know if I hadnt pulled it would have gotten very ugly, these guys had clubs and knives etc. Be careful in a crowd scene, very careful.

[Lurper]

Glenn
You and I agree on the basic premise, those who elect to enter a grappling contest border on folly.
Not to hijack the thread, but just for you, I researched efficiency of OC and found this article from Harvard that is obviously pro OC. They concluded that it is 90% effective. But, thier sample was small - less than 200. However, I did find this interesting:

Effectiveness of OC use
Overall, OC was very effective in the
194 incidents where it was used (see
“Officers’ Comments on OC”on page 6).
A total of 156 (90 percent) of the 174
individuals sprayed were incapacitated
enough to be effectively arrested.
Data indicate that almost all officers
applied OC to the suspect’s face, as
they had been directed in training.
However, officers generally did not
spray from a distance of 4 to 6 feet as
instructed. In 144 incidents, the spray
was activated at a distance of 3 feet or
less; in 102 of these, OC was sprayed
at a distance of 2 feet or less. As a result,
OC may not have been maximally
effective.
Yet the data show that OC worked
even if it was not sprayed from the distance
suggested by the manufacturer.
In 144 incidents, only one spray was
required to incapacitate a subject; officers
used the full contents of an issued
container of OC to control
suspects in four separate incidents. No
data indicated that spraying more than
one short burst produced better effects,
if the subject were given a
“good” spray the first time. The data
showed that 117 individuals (67 percent)
were classified by officers as
submissive after the OC had been applied;
27 individuals (16 percent) were
listed as complying with officer instructions
after being sprayed (see exhibit
3). The difference between the
terms “submissive” and “compliant” is
subtle,2 and it might be more appropriate
to collapse the two categories into
one. When the categories are collapsed,
144 (83 percent) of the 174 subjects
were sufficiently neutralized to yield to
officer orders. Thirty individuals (17
percent) struggled or otherwise failed
to follow officer instructions.
Eighteen of these 30 struggling subjects
were classified by officers as not
fully incapacitated by the OC spray.
According to officer reports, the OC
had no effect on seven suspects. These
seven individuals exhibited drugged
behavior or seemed to have emotional
problems. These data indicate that individuals
who are heavily intoxicated,
drugged, or mentally unstable may be
resistant or immune to OC’s effects or
that OC may actually exacerbate the
difficulty associated with controlling
such persons.3 Additionally, these
types of encounters may cause the officer
to be cross-contaminated if the
incident escalates to a physical confrontation.
BCoPD’s experience indicates
that training officers may want to
stress the importance of accurately assessing
the likely impact of pepper
spray in such an encounter and of being
prepared to select another control
alternative.

So, I think it is safe to say that it is not the magic bullet some say. In fact if you check out the current issue of Police News, they use almost those exact words to summarize OC.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There's a DOJ report that quite similar. My point is that the efficacy is quite high. In the incident in question - if you spray the BG - the odds are that it would work and you avoid grappling and/or shooting the guy.

That's my problem with your analyses of OC - everything has a failure rate but I think that OC works well enough that it is reasonable to deploy here.

I wouldn't in a knife situation.

About the sample size - if you wanted to test whether something was 90% effective with a confidence interval of 5% - you need about 40 subjects. I used the formulas from Borden and Abott's Research Design and Methods book.

[spacemanspiff]

Bottom line about OC, it buys you time.

[Capt. Charlie]

Less than lethal? I think we've been there, done that, guys.

This one's, would you get involved?

[Thunderhawk88]

Shot to the back of the head,with fist,that is the vision center of the brain.
Then keep hitting,don't stop until he drops.Just like he did to his victum

While five of the BG's buddies come up behind you with their own kind of "shot to the back of the head"....not the best option!
Step one has to be call 911...get back-up!