The .45 "Long" Colt........ - Page 6

akguy1985 · August 28, 2012, 05:54 AM

I've always heard it called 45 long colt.

BusGunner007 · August 29, 2012, 03:59 PM

Fascinating thread, Gentlemen!

Ross Seyfried wrote an article on .44 Magnum vs. .45 Colt ( don't remember if he called it 'Long' or not... ).
He ultimately chose, if I remember correctly, a RUGER Bisley 7 1/2" bbl. in .45 because the cartridge can be loaded to superior levels over the .44 Rem.Mag.
I respect him and his choice.

Solution #1:
After reading this thread, I decided I'll call his choice the COLT .45 and leave it at that.

Solution #2:
When I chose between the two, I picked the .44 Remington Magnum.
It's plenty enough for me and I'm not handloading.
Even though it's technically a squeak under being a '.43' ( .429, go figure! ), I'm happy with my choice.
And I don't have any trouble at the counter when I say '.44 Mag.' ...

Bart Noir · August 29, 2012, 10:16 PM

Quote:

As an example, nobody, these days, gets confused and calls the ..... .38 S&W the .38 Special Short.

I should hope not. As I learned on this forum years back (when Irwin was only at the 20,000 message count

) by a gentle correction from one of the long-time shooters, the .38 Special is descended from the .38 Long Colt, not from the .38 S&W. You can fire the .38 LC in the .38 Special wheelgun all you want, but the .38 S&W will not fit.

Bart Noir

Bart Noir · August 29, 2012, 10:25 PM

Sport45, in answer to your question, when the M1909 revolver was introduced, the new smokeless round for it was called.....wait for it.... the M1909 cartridge.

See Posts 19, 27, and 54 in this thread for more info.

Bart Noir
Who wishes he could have taken home that good-condition 1909. Sigh.

**JohnKSa** · August 30, 2012, 12:01 AM

Quote:

You can fire the .38 LC in the .38 Special wheelgun all you want, but the .38 S&W will not fit.

I know the dimensions say it won't fit, but, from a practical standpoint it depends on the specific gun and the particular ammunition in question.

One of the guys in the gun club has shot a good deal .38S&W through his .357Mag revolver and poking around on the web reveals that it's not that hard to find others with similar experiences.

Some of the counterexamples involve vintage .38S&W ammunition. I suspect that modern S&W may be more likely to work and, further, that the reason for that is that some of the current ammo manufacturers are intentionally making their .38S&W just enough undersize that it will usually chamber in .38Spl/.357Mag revolvers.

Jim Watson · August 30, 2012, 12:07 AM

Quote:

As an example, nobody, these days, gets confused and calls the ..... .38 S&W the .38 Special Short.

Not that I have heard, but the .38 S&W IS very commonly called the .38 Short; just as the .32 S&W is very commonly called the .32 Short or even .32 S&W Short.

Not much heard here and now, but there was a term for .38 S&W as ".38 Regular" as contrasted to .38 Special.

BlueTrain · August 30, 2012, 08:13 AM

Ha! A certain US Army manual I have from the 1950s refers to the ".38 regular," referring of course to the .38 S&W and also as .38/200. There were a lot of revolvers in the manual, even to include both the long and short action S&W revolvers.

However, a .38 short is not the same as a .38 S&W. But the .38 New Police is, almost, if I remember correctly. Colt insisted on their being equivalent cartridges to the S&W line but gave them their own name and usualy had a slightly different bullet profile. They had the .38 Colt Special, for instance. I also might note there are other differences in cartridge cases that are not different cartridges, merely little manufacturing differences not mentioned in specifications.

**JohnKSa** · August 30, 2012, 10:14 PM

Quote:

As an example, nobody, these days, gets confused and calls the ..... .38 S&W the .38 Special Short.

Ok, I'll rephrase.

As an example, nobody, these days, gets confused and calls the ..... .38 Special the .357Magnum Short. If the designation of the cartridge is obviously different, (as in .38 Special and .357 Magnum or .45S&W and .45 Colt) there's no need to use an adjective to differentiate between the rounds. You just call the round what it's named and there's no confusion.

BlueTrain · August 31, 2012, 07:37 AM

Someone here should contact Smith & Wesson and let them know that the Model 25 they currently offer for sale is not chambered for the .45 Long Colt, which they claim it is. You would think they would just put ".45 Long" on the side of the barrel. After all, who puts ".40 Smith & Wesson" on their guns besides S&W?

**Mike Irwin** · August 31, 2012, 09:10 AM

Given that Smith & Wesson pretty thoroughly thrashed Colt in the handgun field many decades ago, I really don't think the old rivalries hold much fire any more.

Salmoneye · August 31, 2012, 09:52 AM

This image is a zoom from the S&W current Model 25 page:

Page is here:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y

BlueTrain · August 31, 2012, 09:54 AM

Well, on your linked page, it does say .45 Long Colt.

I wonder if there was ever a .45 Medium Colt?

Winchester_73 · August 31, 2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

You would think they would just put ".45 Long" on the side of the barrel. After all, who puts ".40 Smith & Wesson" on their guns besides S&W?

couldn't 45 long be almost any 45 ctg that is longer than at least one other one? With 22s its different but imagine a gun marked say "38 short" how many ctgs could that be?

**Mike Irwin** · August 31, 2012, 10:22 AM

"imagine a gun marked say "38 short" how many ctgs could that be?"

Traditionally, it would be a single cartridge -- the .38 Short Colt.

BlueTrain · August 31, 2012, 02:12 PM

Not only that, that's probably the way the case is marked: ".38 SHORT," judging by how the .38 Long Colt cartridge is marked, which is ".38 LONG." At least that's the way mine are marked. I don't know about the .32 cartridges, though.

micromontenegro · August 31, 2012, 02:21 PM

Perhaps we should rename the 45-70 "45 Long Rifle"

Bob Wright · August 31, 2012, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Perhaps we should rename the 45-70 "45 Long Rifle"

The .45-70 is also known as the .45-70-405, .45-70-500, and .45-70 Government. Think its pretty well defined.

Bob Wright

**Mike Irwin** · August 31, 2012, 04:36 PM

I've seen 38 short Colt cases marked Short Colt, S Colt, and S C.

Jim Watson · August 31, 2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Perhaps we should rename the 45-70 "45 Long Rifle"

The .45-70 is also known as the .45-70-405, .45-70-500, and .45-70 Government. Think its pretty well defined.

Bob Wright

Don't forget .45 x 2 1/10" Sharps or .45-75 Sharps.

And it is hardly the "long rifle" because there were several longer .45 rifle cartridges of the day.

BlueTrain · September 1, 2012, 06:44 AM

There were even a few cartridges that were "extra-long."

Leafing through Barnes' book about cartridges, it is interesting to note the way things have been named over the years, with the addition of words like "special," "high-speed" or "high-velocity," and "express," which was not exclusively British, as I had thought. Also, many, many cartridges from the 19th century were hypenated, as in .44-40, which I discovered also came in an extra long (but not a long). It is also surprising how early bottlenecked cartridges appeared, too. All those before the word magnum was used.

**Mike Irwin** · September 1, 2012, 11:30 AM

Or the .45-75 Winchester.

Or the .45-70 Van Choate.

savit260 · September 2, 2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

just as the .32 S&W is very commonly called the .32 Short or even .32 S&W Short.

That would be because there is also a .32 S&W Long... also known as .32 Colt New Police.

Colt also called the 38 S&W , .38 New Police....which shares no lineage with the 38 Colt or 38 Long Colt.

Jim Watson · September 2, 2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

just as the .32 S&W is very commonly called the .32 Short or even .32 S&W Short.

That would be because there is also a .32 S&W Long... also known as .32 Colt New Police.

Yes, but they are still calling it something not on the company catalog or box label description.

orionengnr · September 2, 2012, 09:14 PM

Well, I'm not an expert on the subject, but I have owned several S&W revolvers chambered in "the cartridge in question".

Quote:

When I see a head stamp that says 45 LONG COLT or 45 SHORT COLT, I will acknowledge its existence....Until then, it's just 45 COLT. I've been shooting for 47 years and hand-loading for 21, that's gotta count for something

Erm...no, not so much. As has been stated repeatedly, practice does not make perfect...only perfect practice makes perfect.

Quote:

You guys are just complicating the matter. It was designed as the .45 Colt from day 1. Period. It was called the .45 Long Colt for a period of time due to 'lots' of confusion during the early years. We all know the history (or bits and pieces of it). But today, there is no absolutely NO confusion as there is only in production.

Actually, the confusion has existed for quite a while, and will probably continue for a while. I was raised in an era when a 1911 was referred to as a ".45 Colt" or, more frequently, a "Colt .45".

Its revolver counterpart was referred to as a ".45 Long Colt" to differentiate between the two. And I have owned both for a while.

I call it .45 LC, and (until I read a far more compelling argument than I have seen here) will continue to do so.

JKilbreth · September 4, 2012, 02:19 AM

I know it doesn't really affect the accuracy of the term(s) "long colt," but a reloading buddy of mine decided to test a bit of an experiment and trimmed a .45 "long" colt case to the approximate length of a .45 ACP, loaded lower powder and a 160gr lead bullet just to see if the sucker would fire out of his revolver. Turns out it worked, and neither my friend, nor his firearm were damaged in the event. He decided (since there seemed to be an absence of a "short" version of the caliber) to call his adaptation the ".45 short colt."

August 28, 2012, 05:54 AM	#126
akguy1985 Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2012 Location: Claremore, Oklahoma Posts: 179	I've always heard it called 45 long colt. __________________ Marksman of the mezzanine

August 29, 2012, 03:59 PM	#127
BusGunner007 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2001 Location: Upper Left Coast Posts: 2,116	My own 2 solutions to this dilemma: Fascinating thread, Gentlemen! Ross Seyfried wrote an article on .44 Magnum vs. .45 Colt ( don't remember if he called it 'Long' or not... ). He ultimately chose, if I remember correctly, a RUGER Bisley 7 1/2" bbl. in .45 because the cartridge can be loaded to superior levels over the .44 Rem.Mag. I respect him and his choice. Solution #1: After reading this thread, I decided I'll call his choice the COLT .45 and leave it at that. Solution #2: When I chose between the two, I picked the .44 Remington Magnum. It's plenty enough for me and I'm not handloading. Even though it's technically a squeak under being a '.43' ( .429, go figure! ), I'm happy with my choice. And I don't have any trouble at the counter when I say '.44 Mag.' ... __________________ "...if you're not havin' fun, you're workin'..."

August 29, 2012, 10:25 PM	#129
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	Sport45, in answer to your question, when the M1909 revolver was introduced, the new smokeless round for it was called.....wait for it.... the M1909 cartridge. See Posts 19, 27, and 54 in this thread for more info. Bart Noir Who wishes he could have taken home that good-condition 1909. Sigh. __________________ Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle!

August 30, 2012, 08:13 AM	#132
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Ha! A certain US Army manual I have from the 1950s refers to the ".38 regular," referring of course to the .38 S&W and also as .38/200. There were a lot of revolvers in the manual, even to include both the long and short action S&W revolvers. However, a .38 short is not the same as a .38 S&W. But the .38 New Police is, almost, if I remember correctly. Colt insisted on their being equivalent cartridges to the S&W line but gave them their own name and usualy had a slightly different bullet profile. They had the .38 Colt Special, for instance. I also might note there are other differences in cartridge cases that are not different cartridges, merely little manufacturing differences not mentioned in specifications. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 31, 2012, 07:37 AM	#134
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Someone here should contact Smith & Wesson and let them know that the Model 25 they currently offer for sale is not chambered for the .45 Long Colt, which they claim it is. You would think they would just put ".45 Long" on the side of the barrel. After all, who puts ".40 Smith & Wesson" on their guns besides S&W? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 31, 2012, 09:10 AM	#135
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Given that Smith & Wesson pretty thoroughly thrashed Colt in the handgun field many decades ago, I really don't think the old rivalries hold much fire any more. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 31, 2012, 09:52 AM	#136
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	This image is a zoom from the S&W current Model 25 page: Page is here: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y

August 31, 2012, 09:54 AM	#137
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Well, on your linked page, it does say .45 Long Colt. I wonder if there was ever a .45 Medium Colt? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 31, 2012, 10:22 AM	#139
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"imagine a gun marked say "38 short" how many ctgs could that be?" Traditionally, it would be a single cartridge -- the .38 Short Colt. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 31, 2012, 02:12 PM	#140
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Not only that, that's probably the way the case is marked: ".38 SHORT," judging by how the .38 Long Colt cartridge is marked, which is ".38 LONG." At least that's the way mine are marked. I don't know about the .32 cartridges, though. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 31, 2012, 02:21 PM	#141
micromontenegro Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2010 Posts: 647	Perhaps we should rename the 45-70 "45 Long Rifle"

August 31, 2012, 04:36 PM	#143
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I've seen 38 short Colt cases marked Short Colt, S Colt, and S C. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 1, 2012, 06:44 AM	#145
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	There were even a few cartridges that were "extra-long." Leafing through Barnes' book about cartridges, it is interesting to note the way things have been named over the years, with the addition of words like "special," "high-speed" or "high-velocity," and "express," which was not exclusively British, as I had thought. Also, many, many cartridges from the 19th century were hypenated, as in .44-40, which I discovered also came in an extra long (but not a long). It is also surprising how early bottlenecked cartridges appeared, too. All those before the word magnum was used. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

September 1, 2012, 11:30 AM	#146
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Or the .45-75 Winchester. Or the .45-70 Van Choate. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 4, 2012, 02:19 AM	#150
JKilbreth Member Join Date: May 10, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 97	I know it doesn't really affect the accuracy of the term(s) "long colt," but a reloading buddy of mine decided to test a bit of an experiment and trimmed a .45 "long" colt case to the approximate length of a .45 ACP, loaded lower powder and a 160gr lead bullet just to see if the sucker would fire out of his revolver. Turns out it worked, and neither my friend, nor his firearm were damaged in the event. He decided (since there seemed to be an absence of a "short" version of the caliber) to call his adaptation the ".45 short colt."

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