The outrageous behavior continues...

[jimbob86]

Well, search away, Feds .......

I think we all ought to answer our Verizon phones with, "HelloJihadDetonatorBombPlotCellConstitutionTeaParty...."

....just to help them justify the further breakdown of the Country.

[zukiphile]

Can you hear me now?

"Yes" - NSA

Originally Posted by csmsss

Now, I'm sure the wonderfully honest, open and transparent regime would never do such a thing...

I am unable to work up outrage over this episode. We do not require the police to obtain a warrant for developing a mail matrix, i.e. a record of the pattern of mail deliveries. How is developing the pattern for telephone communications substantially different?

Is who you call and when you call them "private" information if AT&T and Verizon and 1 million of their most trusted employees are aware of it?

I dislike the size and scope of the modern state, but how can one be sufficiently surprised by this so that he is actually outraged?

The federal government regulates which telecom company can buy another, how much you pay your employees, whether and what kind of medical insurance you provide, compels an annual and rather detailed accounting of all of your financial affairs along with potential criminal penalties for failure to report, and perhaps most pertinent here, does not permit you to purchase a new firearm, the possession of which is explicitly constitutionally protected, unless you complete and sign an interview form and leave it with a government licensee.

What is out of character for that same government to note your use of a highly regulated communication apparatus?

[jimbob86]

how can one be sufficiently surprised by this so that he is actually outraged?

One need not be surprised in order to be outraged. I am already outraged. This is just a continuation of outrageous behavior by an out of control Federal Government ..... I'm not surprised at all.

The federal government regulates which telecom company can buy another, how much you pay your employees, whether and what kind of medical insurance you provide, compels an annual and rather detailed accounting of all of your financial affairs along with potential criminal penalties for failure to report, and perhaps most pertinent here, does not permit you to purchase a new firearm, the possession of which is explicitly constitutionally protected, unless you complete and sign an interview form and leave it with a government licensee.

How soon do you suppose they will require and indelible mark upon your person in order to be able to buy or sell?

JihadDetonatorBombPlotConstitutionTEAParty! That'll get their datamining engines spun up!

[Weatherby Fan]

no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I'd like to know what the 'probably cause' is for searching records of everything everyone has sent.

Obvious violation of civil rights.

[Spats McGee]

I have to admit to being equally disturbed by the federal government's response to the revelation of the program: "it's just the renewal of a program we've had since 2006." That's another way of saying "It's OK, because we've been doing it for a while."

[Brian Pfleuger]

I have to admit to being equally disturbed by the federal government's response to the revelation of the program: "it's just the renewal of a program we've had since 2006." That's another way of saying "It's OK, because we've been doing it for a while."

Indeed. Most concerning to me is that lack of outrage on the part of the American people. This stuff should have the numbers from the "Occupy" movement looking like a kindergarten parade but there's.... silence.

This is as fundamental as it gets and, from what I can tell, no one cares. At least in any numbers that matter.

[thallub]

This is as fundamental as it gets and, from what I can tell, no one cares. At least in any numbers that matter.

Bingo!!!

Few people cared when the so called "patriot act" was passed and signed into law. Nearly all the conservatives supported it. Those of us who spoke out against the degradation of our Constitutional rights were called "traitors" and worse. Fewer yet cared when FISA became law. Almost no one noticed when these laws were extended and strenghtened.

Folks are afraid and fear sells. This stuff will only get worse with each new administration.

[KyJim]

I think the sheer scope of the information gathering is truly frightening. The FISA Court ordered Verizon to release call metadata (phone numbers, trunk lines, duration, etc.) on calls between the U.S. and abroad and all calls wholly in the United States, including local calls. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...ta-court-order. This seems to make a mockery out of even the minimal protection that FISA might have because this court order makes it unnecessary to obtain any other court orders involving Verizon.

But wait, it's not just Verizon but also ATT and Sprint/Nextel according to reports from the Wall Street Journal. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...289298922.html.

There is at least an indication that some members of the FISA court have found such orders to be unconstitutional -- at least we think so. The Department of Justice is fighting the release of the opinion which is being sought by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...-court-opinion. Yes, I know its "Mother Jones" but you can get it a bit more fragmented manner straight from www.eff.org. EFF has been around for a number of years.Read their opinion on why privacy of metadata is important.

But wait, THERE'S MORE. The U.S.P.S. scans the front and back of each item of mail they handle and evidently store it for at least a short time period. A report at The Smoking Gun website indicates federal officials utilized this in tracking down the woman who mailed ricin laced letters recently. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documen...letters-687435. The affidavit in support of a criminal complaint is here -- http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documen...letters-687435.

Proud to say that one of my U.S. Senators, Rand Paul, actively worked against the last renewal of the Patriot Act and the FISA courts. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/polit...iot-act/38194/. Unfortunately, my other Senator (Mitch McConnell) did not.

[ChasingWhitetail91]

I don't believe we have a right to privacy, or atleast thats what my old civics teacher used to tell me. Just speak in pig latin on your cell phone, problem solved.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is an example of how a moral panic (we must do something to save even one life) operates.

We see three currently running in the USA.

1. The Patriot Act , 9/11 fallout. Lindsay Graham has nothing to hide so keep track of every phone, internet action.

2. The rush for stupid gun control laws that would have no effect, or the more draconian bans - that would have no effect.

3. The stigmatizing and forced reporting of people seeking mental health treatment.

All are justified to save 'one life'. Liberty means that you take some risks to preserve freedoms.

The comment that they don't know names is so stupid as to be amazing. Or that the info is only about terror threats.

Once the data base exists - one can come up with numerous abuses. Given the IRS mess, do you think that a President (of either party) would not use it for evil, blackmail, embarrassment, political advantage?

The efficacious use of such a program is doubtful (despite the hints that it caught an unknown number of evil doers). The Boston bombers were highlighted to the government and they did nothing with the info. That gives me confidence in their acumen.

[MLeake]

I generally have no use for Rush Limbaugh, but my dad sent me a link to a transcript on this topic that is a very good read. The sound bite from Rep. Maxine Waters is very telling, in this context:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/20..._a_coup_d_etat

[Evan Thomas]

The quotation from Maxine Waters is taken completely out of context. She and Mr. Martin are discussing the political concerns of minorities, and whether/how President Obama will address them in his second term. The "database" referred to is the one maintained by Organizing for America, the principal 501(4)(c) that supports Mr. Obama. Rep. Waters' point is that no matter who is the Democratic nominee for president in 2016, he or she will have to reckon with the interests represented by that database, which is composed of people who contributed to that organization.

The conversation has nothing whatever to do with intelligence-gathering by any federal agency.

The transcript of the original interview is here.

Typical Limbaugh.

[HisSoldier]

I'd already assumed anything sent over the wires/online was out there forever. Did you think it wasn't?

Since the eighties, called "Echelon", they have collected and analyzed all electronic data worldwide. I do not believe for one second that wiretap warrants are anything other than window dressing made to hide the truth.

If gov't wants to make someone into a criminal don't tell me they can't, or even that they won't, retrieve info from Echelon records to use against us.

What kind of morons do we live amongst that would ignore history so thoroughly that these things do not make them shudder.

The easiest society to establish and operate a conspiracy within is the one with ten thousand conspiracy theories rampant within at any given moment.

[MLeake]

Vanya,

This will be yet another reason why I generally have no use for Limbaugh. Thanks for the correction.

[Evan Thomas]

It's amazing, what you can find if you fact-check his statements... that could be a whole cottage industry if only there were money in it.

I'd like to think he's not as influential as he used to be, but...

[jimbob86]

It's amazing, what you can find if you fact-check his statements... that could be a whole cottage industry if only there were money in it.

There are folks at Media Matters that seem to make a living doing it .... there is money coming from somewhere ......

[Evan Thomas]

Good point. And they do it pretty well. But "the all Rush Limbaugh, all the time" fact-check site would still have its hands full...

[brickhouseblues]

Can they listen in or record all conversation one makes with Verizon? I been a customer for 4 years now. Are all my contacts and conversations being listened to?

[Armorer-at-Law]

Liberty means that you take some risks to preserve freedoms.

Absolutely true. I've been saying this for quite a while. But this does not seem to be the popular view. So many people just don't want to be "inconvenienced." So much easier to be "safe."

[csmsss]

There are two different projects being run by NSA. There is this particular project, which is to accumulate metadata on EVERY call (and presumably text communications as well) in or out of the US, and apparently including not just Verizon but also the other backbone carriers as well.

Then there is a project called PRISM, which predates the above effort. Little is known for certain about it other than it (apparently) generates keyword searches against the actual content of communications (apparently both text and voice communications). I believe this is done in real time, and am not certain whether it is also done against archived content. PRISM has, apparently, been around since 2006 (possibly prior to that), and it's unclear to me the breadth and depth of the monitoring which has been done and how much has been done independently of FISA authorization.

[Evan Thomas]

There are two different projects being run by NSA. There is this particular project, which is to accumulate metadata on EVERY call (and presumably text communications as well) in or out of the US, and apparently including not just Verizon but also the other backbone carriers as well.

As I understand it, it's not just every international call that's included. The NSA is empowered to collect metadata on all communications by anyone who has ever made an international call.

[csmsss]

As I understand it, it's not just every international call that's included. The NSA is empowered to collect metadata on all communications by anyone who has ever made an international call.

I apologize if I was unclear. The collection has been, apparently, on every call on Verizon's system(s), whether international or not. Basically every message or call which has flowed through their communications network is subject to this order, whether international or not, and regardless of the citizenship of either party.

[Evan Thomas]

You're right -- that does now seem to be what they're doing. It's all the more outrageous given that by law, the NSA is -- at least in theory -- restricted to monitoring foreign communications. They have justified retaining data collected within the US on the grounds that it may be necessary "as background" to understand the context or patterns of the foreign communications data they collect. That appears to be the rationale in this case: they need to analyze everything in order to find patterns that deviate from the norm.

[Dr Big Bird PhD]

they need to analyze everything in order to find patterns that deviate from the norm.

And what may I ask... is the norm?

What is normal for me to make versus another American? What if I suddenly have a new business venture of meet someone from out of country?


I wont let anyone tell me what is NORMAL for me.

[LewSchiller]

I'm going to close my Gmail accounts and do all that I can to disassociate myself from Google. To that end,- where would be a good place to take my accounts and business?