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January 23, 2012, 10:24 AM | #51 |
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We discussed this incident at length on The High Road. Everyone agrees there that it was a job well done by the shooter.
Madmag: Is this area a suburb of a major city? It seems like the area has a lot of problems.
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January 23, 2012, 10:32 AM | #52 | |
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1. The robbery was foiled; no good person was injured and no money lost. 2. If the BGs had been planning on executing anyone, that crime was stopped before execution (pun intended) 3. Neither one of them will be committing any other robberies or assorted crimes in the future. Nope, no crimes were prevented here.
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January 23, 2012, 11:47 AM | #53 |
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The population of Spartanburg is around 150,000. I live about 25 miles away and only go to spartanburg as on a "have to" basis.
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January 23, 2012, 11:49 AM | #54 | |
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Things ended up turning out alright for the shooter.
If the debate is over whether he should have drawn his pistol, I agree he should have drawn. If the debate is over whether he should have shot the gunman Dante Williams - I agree he should have shot him. But there are a few things here tactically that he could have done better and could have really gone badly. 1) Trying to hold the perpetrators for police. IMO, he should have just drawn his own firearm and shot. Period. Dante Williams could have shot him, or could have just "started shooting" and shot other patrons. The accomplice could have done the same thing. An initial report said that the accomplice was unarmed, but a subsequent report says that "two armed men entered the restaurant and tried to rob it." and: "Deputies arrested Kenneth Jowan Craig, 29, and charged him with armed robbery and possession of a deadly weapon during a violent crime." 2) According to another report, he got into a physical scuffle with the second robber Kenneth Jowan Craig. Quote:
http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/165...-armed-robbery I'm glad that no innocent people were hurt, and the citizen should be commended for a defensive gun use that stopped a crime, but there are some bad tactics that were employed. . |
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January 23, 2012, 02:16 PM | #55 | |
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January 23, 2012, 09:24 PM | #57 | ||
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January 24, 2012, 12:50 PM | #58 |
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This is the same sheriff that offered 30 women free training for CCW about a month ago after a woman was forced off the road after being followed from a convenience store. She was unarmed and was murdered. That incident was discussed on this forum.
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January 24, 2012, 02:44 PM | #59 | |
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Subsection A actually deals with "castles" - residence, dwelling, vehicle etc..
Subsection C just says: Quote:
You can never tell what a jury is going to do but, in Illinois, most juries would consider being herded into a room as being in immnent peril. There have been too many instances where employees and patrons were herded into a room and killed execution style, including the infamous Palatine Brown's Chicken Massacre. It may not matter under SC's Protection of Persons and Property Act any way because he also had the right to use deadly force to prevent a violent crime. The authorities aren't splitting hairs in this case, they obviously beleive the law covers the patron. I guess we'd have to see if the relatives of the deceased or the remaining assailant brings a challenge of it to court. But the whole thing of being herded into a room - in Illinois at least would meet the criteria for resonable belief of impending death. |
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January 24, 2012, 03:10 PM | #60 | |
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It is sad, but no life was lost. This guy did not lose his life, he threw it away, gambling it for the money in the till. Guess he did not value it much...... that is sad. |
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January 24, 2012, 09:09 PM | #61 | ||
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January 24, 2012, 09:21 PM | #62 | |
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From early on...
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Feller with a gun? Yepper... I have reason to fear one of his rounds is meant for me! Brent |
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January 24, 2012, 09:46 PM | #63 |
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^ I agree
Since this is a tactics forum I would just say it's bad tactics to wait until the bad guy points a gun at you to shoot, but he wouldn't have been in that situation if he hadn't first made the decision to "hold" the assailants at gun point until LE arrived - another bad tactic. There is a lot of talk on this thread about castle doctine - but just to separate it for a moment, not to belabor the old clichƩ "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" but from my point of view - no matter what state I'm in, regardless of what laws are in place, if someone initiates a robbery in an establisment with me in it, I'm going to constantly be making a judgement of what is my risk of bodily harm or death - if he is going to take the money and go or if he's going to do more... and as soon as robbers start herding people into a backroom, the scale just tipped and I am going to look for the BEST opportunity to draw my weapon and stop the aggression. If that means the assailant is looking the other way and I shoot him while his back is turned - so be it. |
January 24, 2012, 09:47 PM | #64 | |
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January 24, 2012, 10:18 PM | #65 | ||
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I think if there is a high incidence of civilians that lawfully CCW, then you will see a reduction in crime in that area. I admit I don' have numbers in hand but I remember a few years ago about an area in Florida that had civilian CCW after high crime rates and the crime went down. Anyway, the crime rate for that day at that Waffle House was reduced by about 100%. |
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January 25, 2012, 12:10 AM | #66 | |||
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http://www.jstor.org/pss/116969 Says that studies that say that more concealed guns reduce crime are "suspect". http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPag...v=13&id=&page= "... no basis for drawing confident conclusions about the impact of right-to-carry laws on violent crime." http://home.uchicago.edu/~ludwigj/pa...nLaws-1998.pdf "... results suggest that shall-issue laws have resulted, if anything, an increase in adult homicide rates" http://hercules.gcsu.edu/~jswinton/E...Deterrence.pdf "The benefits that a county obtains from its state passing a shail-issue concealed-handgun law are generally stronger than those found in previous work. Spillover effects on neighboring areas are almost always deleterious." In other words, counties benefit, but it seems that crime just moves elsewhere instead of reducing. Quote:
Violent crime rate for New York City (no concealed carry allowed) in 2008: 444.4 per 100,000. (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm) Crime is not as simple as allowing concealed handguns. This brings me back to my original point: we should not try to make the argument that carrying concealed handguns reduces crime. We need to say that it stops crime from happening to law abiding innocent people.
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January 25, 2012, 12:36 AM | #67 |
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whether you agree or disagree about this stopping a crime. You can at least agree it helped stop some future crime. If the 19 year old would not have been shot and killed he probably would have went one to commit a future crime. This goes for the guy who was later arrested. So by him being killed and the other arrested that takes 2 criminals off the street.
Last edited by kinggabby; January 25, 2012 at 12:57 AM. |
January 25, 2012, 12:38 AM | #68 | |||||
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You also left out the primary statement in that data: "Except for assaults, these spillover effects are either deleterious or insignificant." ...Not that the "insignificant" spill over effects matter... they're plugging their statistics into an unproven algorithm. None of their conclusions are based on hard data. It's based on estimates that were pumped out of the algorithm. Quote:
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January 25, 2012, 09:40 AM | #69 | |
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Good reply from FrankenMauser. I can only add this:
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January 25, 2012, 10:24 AM | #70 | ||||
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Calling the people who write the studies "biased towards the brady bunch" is an ad hominem pure and simple. You can't toss aside several sources just because they are from Chicago. That's something the Brady Campaign would do. And the "algorithm" is far from unproven. Neighborhood spillover effects are something that have been studied successfully for years (if that's what you're talking about... it's not really an algorithm they are using, it's a statistical model)...
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I've provided sources to back up my points, I await the same from the other side other than discrediting the sources. Sad that the thread has come to that. And you don't need an account to read that abstract that gives the overview of the results. I can get more if needed, there is far from a lack of substance in the literature. Quote:
That data comes from the same place, the FBI's UCR. Here are the links to Anchorage and New York City, the numbers are the same: http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_08_ak.html http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_08_ny.html At least try to refute the central point or get data that does instead of simply trying to discredit my data and sources as "the brady bunch"... That's not how this works. Quote:
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gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner Last edited by Sefner; January 25, 2012 at 10:29 AM. |
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January 25, 2012, 10:51 AM | #71 |
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This should never have turned into "CCW reduces crime" discussion. That's missing the whole point.
None of us will ever be able to reduce crime. But we may be able to one day save a life. Here's to hoping none of us are ever in that position.
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January 25, 2012, 10:57 AM | #72 | |
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Back on topic: Do we think it was OK for him to try to hold two attackers at gun point when one has a gun? I think it would be alright at that point (when the gun was pointed at him) to draw and immediately go hot, I'm not so sure attempting negotiations would be the most tactically viable choice...
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January 25, 2012, 11:11 AM | #73 |
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Perhaps attempting to subdue them until police arrived was just a CYA method? That way in case an overzealous attorney convinced the family of the deceased to try and press a civil suit it could be in the record that he tried to simply stop them before firing? in order to not appear to be a trigger happy vigilante.
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January 25, 2012, 11:12 AM | #74 | ||
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First, you can find statistics to support either argument. Like the following interview with John Lott.
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html Quote:
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The main point was to illustrate a SD shooting that represents a scenario that I have thought of many times. It's not a perfect world. Carrying a firearm can work against you, but I think the odds of it helping are in my favor. If I didn't believe that then I would not carry. |
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January 25, 2012, 12:36 PM | #75 |
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Somewhat related: http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/165...******=content
"Spartanburg Co. councilman wants sheriff to drop weapons push" Some of the highlights: "The Herald-Journal of Spartanburg reported that Councilman Michael Brown said he thinks Sheriff Chuck Wright's efforts are irresponsible." "...think Wright's efforts promote an environment of lawlessness." Yep, if the Sheriff hadn't been supporting CCWs, this robbery never would have happened! |
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