357 in a 38 special?

BlueOvalFitter · May 23, 2011, 09:14 AM

How come 38 special can be shot in a 357 but 357 can't be shot in a 38 special? I'm thinking the difference in powder load.

aarondhgraham · May 23, 2011, 09:17 AM

.357 Cartridges are longer,,,
They won't fit into the chamber of a .38 Special revolver.

And that's a good thing!

Aarond

9-ball · May 23, 2011, 09:23 AM

What he said.

They did it on purpose, same reason they gave the 357 another number while it's the same caliber. Shooting a 357 from a 38 could cause exploding cylinders in the worst case.

carguychris · May 23, 2011, 09:46 AM

The reason for the longer cartridge case was that the max operating pressure of .357Mag is nearly double that of .38Spl. Putting a load like this into most .38Spl revolvers- especially a pre-1930s medium-frame Colt or S&W without a heat-treated cylinder- is a recipe for a spectacular gun-destroying and shooter-injuring kB!

A little additional backstory... around 1930, S&W decided to respond to calls from several law-enforcement agencies seeking a cartridge with greater penetration than standard-pressure .38 Special. Since normal smokeless-powder loads only fill the case 1/3 to 1/2 full, the initial solution was to simply add more powder and market stronger revolvers on the larger N frame to fire it- the .38/44 Heavy Duty with a fixed rear sight and the .38/44 Outdoorsman with an adjustable rear sight. (".38/44" signifies a .38-caliber revolver with a .44-caliber frame.) The cartridge was marketed alternately as the .38/44 or the .38 Special Hi-Speed, and was loaded close to modern .357Mag pressures, although IIRC the actual design pressure is a matter of historical debate as there was no published standard.

However, within a couple of years, S&W management decided in 20/20 hindsight that selling a higher-powered cartridge that could fit into and blow up an older, weaker, smaller-frame revolver* was a Very Bad Idea.

Hence, the .357Mag was created. The older .38/44 or Hi-Speed load was dropped, a decision probably hastened by the discovery that buyers would pay a lot more for a .357Mag revolver than the earlier .38/44s.

Although .357Mag had stolen their thunder, the .38/44 revolvers were marketed into the early 1960s, but sales were almost nonexistent after about 1950.

FWIW the .38/44 revolvers are so daggum strong that many shooters consider them to be some of the few .38Spl revolvers that can safely be converted to .357Mag. In the 1950s and 1960s, police trade-in .38/44s were much cheaper than the new Colt & S&W .357s, so a good number of surplus .38/44s were converted and are still floating around. Some frugal police departments even converted their issue guns as a cost-saving measure.

*Footnote: For a few years after WWII, Colt claimed in their advertising that the medium-frame Police Positive Special could handle .38/44 cartridges, and there are apocryphal stories about shooters successfully using them in postwar S&W K frames. Most experts nowadays attribute Colt's claim to optimism combined with the less lawsuit-happy culture prevalent at the time.

Most experts nowadays agree that even if this ammo doesn't blow up the gun the first time you try it, it's not a good idea in the long run, and is not worth attempting given that medium-frame revolvers built for .357Mag have now been available for decades.

GP100man · May 23, 2011, 06:11 PM

The modern day 38spc. generates 16,000 psi the 357magnum 36,000 psi

That`s why the 357 is .135" longer !!

As stated above it did`nt take the manufacturers long to figure out that the older revolvers could`nt handle the new found pressures .

& any quistionable revolver should be checked by a competent Smith before firing modern 38spc. & 38spc. +p ammo!!

8shot357 · May 23, 2011, 06:14 PM

You've had two revolvers and you don't know?

A Ruger Security six, and a Taurus .38spl?

**Mike Irwin** · May 23, 2011, 09:35 PM

"However, within a couple of years, S&W management decided in 20/20 hindsight that selling a higher-powered cartridge that could fit into and blow up an older, weaker, smaller-frame revolver* was a Very Bad Idea. Hence, the .357Mag was created. The older .38/44 or Hi-Speed load was dropped, a decision probably hastened by the discovery that buyers would pay a lot more for a .357Mag revolver than the earlier .38/44s."

Well..... sort of.

Phil Sharpe had been after Smith & Wesson to come out with a cartridge very much like the .357 Mag. since the middle 1920s. He even enlisted the help of Elmer Keith, whose work with high potency .38 Specials formed much of the genesis of the .38-44.

Smith & Wesson never actually loaded ammunition during this time frame. They partnered primarily with Winchester for ammunition development.

Apparently Remington had no compunctions about their .38-44 ammunition blowing up K and even J frame revolvers, because they loaded .38-44 right into the 1960s.

Remember, too, that when the .357 Mag. was created, it wasn't as a replacement for the .38-44 revolver (those continued to be made until well after World War II), it was seen as a specialty item that would, because of its phenomenally high cost (almost $70 during the depression, or almost $900 in today's dollars) sell very few units. Hence the early guns were the Registered Magnums.

The first truly affordable .357 Magnums didn't come out until the 1950s.

BlueOvalFitter · May 23, 2011, 09:53 PM

8shot357,i've never owned a Taurus 38 special.

8shot357 · May 24, 2011, 12:24 PM

Quote:

8shot357,i've never owned a Taurus 38 special.
__________________

Quote:

July 8, 2006, 03:16 AM #1
BlueOvalFitter

Trade a revolver for a semi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I own a Taurus/Rossi 38 special,model 351 blued.It has only been shot 5 times.My friend wants to trade a Bersa Thunder series 380 for it.What do ya'll think of the Bersa 380s? BTW,I like this website!

It must have been a Rossi/Taurus, sorry.

So..how's the Bersa working for you. My brither has one, he like's it.

SPEMack618 · May 24, 2011, 12:35 PM

In his book, "With the Old Breed" Eugene Sledge talks about a former FBI agent turned Marine who would drop Japanese soldiers at ~75 yards with a Registered Magnum.

Question: Is it possible to shoot .38-44s out a .357 revovler?

carguychris · May 24, 2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Question: Is it possible to shoot .38-44s out a .357 revovler?

Yes. Although the exact operating pressure of a .38/44 is a subject of historical debate, most sources state that it's definitely less than .357Mag.

SPEMack618 · May 24, 2011, 01:06 PM

Okay, next question, could I shoot standard .38 Spl out of a .38-44?

Say, like a Heavy Duty or an Outdoorsman?

carguychris · May 24, 2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Okay, next question, could I shoot standard .38 Spl out of a .38-44?

Absolutely!

.38/44 cartridges are dimensionally identical to regular .38Spl; they're just loaded to higher pressure. Same goes for more recent .38Spl+P+ loads. Any gun that can withstand these hot loads can digest standard-pressure .38Spl without even flinching.

.38/44 and .38Spl+P+ are not generally considered safe in a small- or medium-frame .38Spl revolver (see my footnote above), but they're safe in any revolver chambered in .357Mag, and they're safe in vintage large-frame S&Ws and Colts- i.e. the S&W .38/44 HD, S&W .38/44 Outdoorsman, and Colt New Service. The latter was introduced to compete with the S&Ws and most experts consider it comparable in strength.

BlueOvalFitter · May 24, 2011, 02:10 PM

8shot357,I forgot about that pistol.And,I did not know I had named it a "Taurus".Does Taurus actually make Rossi or just import them?

Anyway,what if I did not know.........is it a big deal,to you? Or,you just get enjoyment out of making people like me to look like an ass? If you want to continue to try and make me look like an ass i'm sure I can bring this to another level.

aarondhgraham · May 24, 2011, 02:30 PM

I am constantly amused by contests,,,
Of who can make the wall wet,,,
And how high they can go.

Aarond

BlueOvalFitter · May 24, 2011, 02:37 PM

I thought this site was to also help people out.

**Mike Irwin** · May 24, 2011, 09:24 PM

"Settling back with a bowl of popcorn now,,,"

Well, if it doesn't stop right now, because it's off-topic sniping, it's going to be a VERY short show as some people get tossed out of the theater.

And, as it says on the door, you don't get a refund of your ticket price or the price of the popcorn...

8shot357 · May 25, 2011, 01:17 PM

I just figured sense you owned a .38 before you would know the answer. Rossi's are made by Taurus.

bigbaby · May 25, 2011, 01:31 PM

I read here somewhere that someone's relative was putting 357's in an old police revolver. I knew they wouldnt fit in all the 38's I've seen; certainly not in my model 10, but are there some 38s that would accommodate them? Or was the OP of the thread where I read that full of ...?

**Mike Irwin** · May 25, 2011, 03:43 PM

"but are there some 38s that would accommodate them?"

Unfortunately, yes.

Very early ones could, and many of the Spanish S&W copies could also be fed a .357 Mag.

That would be particularly bad given the generally abysmal quality of the Spanish knockoffs.

Webleymkv · May 25, 2011, 04:44 PM

Quote:

I read here somewhere that someone's relative was putting 357's in an old police revolver. I knew they wouldnt fit in all the 38's I've seen; certainly not in my model 10, but are there some 38s that would accommodate them?

It may have been a large frame S&W or Colt that had been converted aftermarket to .357 Magnum. This used to be fairly common practice due to the high prices of .357 Magnum revolvers. The practice died out after more affordable .357's like the S&W Highway Patrolman were introduced.

Eagleks · May 25, 2011, 09:57 PM

The same reason you can stick an unleaded gas nozzle in a hole for a regular leaded gas nozzle, but not the other way around.

May 23, 2011, 09:17 AM	#2
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Length of the cartridge. .357 Cartridges are longer,,, They won't fit into the chamber of a .38 Special revolver. And that's a good thing! Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

May 23, 2011, 09:46 AM	#4
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	The reason for the longer cartridge case was that the max operating pressure of .357Mag is nearly double that of .38Spl. Putting a load like this into most .38Spl revolvers- especially a pre-1930s medium-frame Colt or S&W without a heat-treated cylinder- is a recipe for a spectacular gun-destroying and shooter-injuring kB! A little additional backstory... around 1930, S&W decided to respond to calls from several law-enforcement agencies seeking a cartridge with greater penetration than standard-pressure .38 Special. Since normal smokeless-powder loads only fill the case 1/3 to 1/2 full, the initial solution was to simply add more powder and market stronger revolvers on the larger N frame to fire it- the .38/44 Heavy Duty with a fixed rear sight and the .38/44 Outdoorsman with an adjustable rear sight. (".38/44" signifies a .38-caliber revolver with a .44-caliber frame.) The cartridge was marketed alternately as the .38/44 or the .38 Special Hi-Speed, and was loaded close to modern .357Mag pressures, although IIRC the actual design pressure is a matter of historical debate as there was no published standard. However, within a couple of years, S&W management decided in 20/20 hindsight that selling a higher-powered cartridge that could fit into and blow up an older, weaker, smaller-frame revolver* was a Very Bad Idea. Hence, the .357Mag was created. The older .38/44 or Hi-Speed load was dropped, a decision probably hastened by the discovery that buyers would pay a lot more for a .357Mag revolver than the earlier .38/44s. Although .357Mag had stolen their thunder, the .38/44 revolvers were marketed into the early 1960s, but sales were almost nonexistent after about 1950. FWIW the .38/44 revolvers are so daggum strong that many shooters consider them to be some of the few .38Spl revolvers that can safely be converted to .357Mag. In the 1950s and 1960s, police trade-in .38/44s were much cheaper than the new Colt & S&W .357s, so a good number of surplus .38/44s were converted and are still floating around. Some frugal police departments even converted their issue guns as a cost-saving measure. Footnote: For a few years after WWII, Colt claimed in their advertising that the medium-frame Police Positive Special could handle .38/44 cartridges, and there are apocryphal stories about shooters successfully using them in postwar S&W K frames. Most experts nowadays attribute Colt's claim to optimism combined with the less lawsuit-happy culture prevalent at the time. Most experts nowadays agree that even if this ammo doesn't blow up the gun the first time you try it, it's not a good idea in the long run, and is not worth attempting given that medium-frame revolvers built for .357Mag have now been available for decades. __________________ "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak* Last edited by carguychris; May 23, 2011 at 09:53 AM.

May 23, 2011, 06:11 PM	#5
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	The modern day 38spc. generates 16,000 psi the 357magnum 36,000 psi That`s why the 357 is .135" longer !! As stated above it did`nt take the manufacturers long to figure out that the older revolvers could`nt handle the new found pressures . & any quistionable revolver should be checked by a competent Smith before firing modern 38spc. & 38spc. +p ammo!! __________________ GP100man

May 23, 2011, 09:35 PM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	"However, within a couple of years, S&W management decided in 20/20 hindsight that selling a higher-powered cartridge that could fit into and blow up an older, weaker, smaller-frame revolver* was a Very Bad Idea. Hence, the .357Mag was created. The older .38/44 or Hi-Speed load was dropped, a decision probably hastened by the discovery that buyers would pay a lot more for a .357Mag revolver than the earlier .38/44s." Well..... sort of. Phil Sharpe had been after Smith & Wesson to come out with a cartridge very much like the .357 Mag. since the middle 1920s. He even enlisted the help of Elmer Keith, whose work with high potency .38 Specials formed much of the genesis of the .38-44. Smith & Wesson never actually loaded ammunition during this time frame. They partnered primarily with Winchester for ammunition development. Apparently Remington had no compunctions about their .38-44 ammunition blowing up K and even J frame revolvers, because they loaded .38-44 right into the 1960s. Remember, too, that when the .357 Mag. was created, it wasn't as a replacement for the .38-44 revolver (those continued to be made until well after World War II), it was seen as a specialty item that would, because of its phenomenally high cost (almost $70 during the depression, or almost $900 in today's dollars) sell very few units. Hence the early guns were the Registered Magnums. The first truly affordable .357 Magnums didn't come out until the 1950s. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 23, 2011, 09:53 PM	#8
BlueOvalFitter Member Join Date: July 8, 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 74	8shot357,i've never owned a Taurus 38 special. __________________ The anticipation of death is worse than death itself!

May 23, 2011, 09:14 AM	#1
BlueOvalFitter Member Join Date: July 8, 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 74	357 in a 38 special? How come 38 special can be shot in a 357 but 357 can't be shot in a 38 special? I'm thinking the difference in powder load. __________________ The anticipation of death is worse than death itself!

May 23, 2011, 09:23 AM	#3
9-ball Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2011 Location: Belgium Posts: 340	What he said. They did it on purpose, same reason they gave the 357 another number while it's the same caliber. Shooting a 357 from a 38 could cause exploding cylinders in the worst case.

May 23, 2011, 06:14 PM	#6
8shot357 Junior member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Posts: 1,740	You've had two revolvers and you don't know? A Ruger Security six, and a Taurus .38spl?

May 24, 2011, 12:35 PM	#10
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	In his book, "With the Old Breed" Eugene Sledge talks about a former FBI agent turned Marine who would drop Japanese soldiers at ~75 yards with a Registered Magnum. Question: Is it possible to shoot .38-44s out a .357 revovler? __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"

May 24, 2011, 01:06 PM	#12
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	Okay, next question, could I shoot standard .38 Spl out of a .38-44? Say, like a Heavy Duty or an Outdoorsman? __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"

May 24, 2011, 02:10 PM	#14
BlueOvalFitter Member Join Date: July 8, 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 74	8shot357,I forgot about that pistol.And,I did not know I had named it a "Taurus".Does Taurus actually make Rossi or just import them? Anyway,what if I did not know.........is it a big deal,to you? Or,you just get enjoyment out of making people like me to look like an ass? If you want to continue to try and make me look like an ass i'm sure I can bring this to another level. __________________ The anticipation of death is worse than death itself!

May 24, 2011, 02:30 PM	#15
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Settling back with a bowl of popcorn now,,, I am constantly amused by contests,,, Of who can make the wall wet,,, And how high they can go. Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

May 24, 2011, 02:37 PM	#16
BlueOvalFitter Member Join Date: July 8, 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 74	I thought this site was to also help people out. __________________ The anticipation of death is worse than death itself!

May 24, 2011, 09:24 PM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	"Settling back with a bowl of popcorn now,,," Well, if it doesn't stop right now, because it's off-topic sniping, it's going to be a VERY short show as some people get tossed out of the theater. And, as it says on the door, you don't get a refund of your ticket price or the price of the popcorn... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 25, 2011, 01:17 PM	#18
8shot357 Junior member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Posts: 1,740	I just figured sense you owned a .38 before you would know the answer. Rossi's are made by Taurus.

May 25, 2011, 01:31 PM	#19
bigbaby Member Join Date: May 11, 2011 Location: Baltimore Posts: 79	I read here somewhere that someone's relative was putting 357's in an old police revolver. I knew they wouldnt fit in all the 38's I've seen; certainly not in my model 10, but are there some 38s that would accommodate them? Or was the OP of the thread where I read that full of ...? __________________ "Do I preach to you when you are laying stoned in the gutter? No. Now beat it!" Futurama Last edited by bigbaby; May 25, 2011 at 03:06 PM.

May 25, 2011, 03:43 PM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	"but are there some 38s that would accommodate them?" Unfortunately, yes. Very early ones could, and many of the Spanish S&W copies could also be fed a .357 Mag. That would be particularly bad given the generally abysmal quality of the Spanish knockoffs. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 25, 2011, 09:57 PM	#22
Eagleks Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 575	The same reason you can stick an unleaded gas nozzle in a hole for a regular leaded gas nozzle, but not the other way around.