CAS Peaked?

[arcticap]

I was very specific about classification based on skill level even if there were only 2 skill levels offered. IDPA offers 4.
Then the shooters can't "sand bag" their ability because once they start winning their class then they must move up to the higher classification.
This constantly helps new people to develop their skills, win their class and to move up before needing to directly compete against the gamers.

[Jim Watson]

I've never heard about there being a classification system assigned to the shooter according to his ability.

'Cause there ain't no such thing in CAS.
What there is, is a plethora of divisions and categories chopping the entries up into such small batches that just about everybody has some chance of win, place, or show in a narrow little specialty.
I think there are some shoots run on Lewis classes, too.

With all those divisions and categories, if you put in classification as well, you would be down to an army of one, the number of different listings approaching the number of shooters.

I've shot a lot of different sports with classification and while that spreads out the trophies a bit, my attitude is that even though I am not in the top class in anything, I am ALWAYS competing against the seasoned pros. I realize there are people not like that, who want some way to come out a "winner" and I sure didn't turn down my fourth place Sharpshooter or High Distinguished Senior awards.

[Tanker6]

I think Fingers hit the nail on the head with his initial post. And, I don't think that the membership is declining either. My daughter and I became members in December of last year (2010). Our numbers were 90XXX. My 8 y/o son wanted to start shooting with us, so I got him some .22 pistols and signed him up in May 2011. His number is 92XXX. While membership may be slowing down, over 2000 new members in a 5-6 month period surely isn't bad -- especially looking at the economic issues of today.

I guess I've been lucky. The two local clubs I shoot at are now some of my closest friends. They were warm and welcoming to the newbie with interested kids. They loaned guns that we didn't have to help us shoot. They loaned us a gun cart to use. They showed us the ins and outs of how to shoot better. They helped with ammo reloading when I needed it (advice and equipment). Some of the ladies sold my daughter outfits (and ridiculously low prices because I wouldn't let them "give" them to her). They've helped, coached, cheered and patted us on the back.

Somebody tell me something else that would get my two kids out of bed at 6:30 a.m. during the summer? Yep, they enjoy it that much. I've been amazed.

Are there some of our shooters that use "gamer" loads? Not that I've seen, but I know that there are some who shoot really light loads in order to be faster. So what? We (me and my kiddos) all shoot .38's, but I do so out of economics. It's a lot cheaper loading .38's.....and I load 'em to about 775-800 fps out of our pistols. That's light enough for a 13 y/o girl to handle and not have to worry about being called a "gamer." We have BP shooters (of which, one day, I'm going to dive off into myself) who routinely show up and belch their soot ("Don't cough....you'll only encourage him!") .

Do we like to compete? Sure. Am I going to be World Champion? No....although my 13 y/o is the reigning Texas State Buckerette Champion (she really is a pretty good shot ). We have one gentleman who shows up dressed to the nines and takes his time at each stage....he shoots 9 out of 10 matches clean....that' his fun. We have another who is a former World Champion Gunfighter (one of the categories) who shoots stages in less than 20 seconds regularly. Both are good pards. No matter what your aim or desire, you can have fun YOUR way.

It's about the fun. I guess it's like anything else you go to do....if you get lucky enough to fall in with a bunch of good folks (and I think SASS has a lot of them), then it's going to be fun.

It's not for everyone, but I think you owe it to yourself to try it out for yourself before you decide.

YMMV

Tanker6
a/k/a Chickahominy Charlie

[arcticap]

Sometimes a modified Lewis system works good, or an arbitrary cut off for a theoretical "B" class at a median score. Then there can be a "B" or intermediate class winner in addition to the expert.

[Fingers McGee]

Tanker6 +1. Well said

FM

[Jbar4Ranch]

Re: Gamer loads.

One of the most authentic loads loads around would be an 80 grain round ball over 20-25 grains of BP. The recoil is something along the lines of the powerful .22 magnum... is it a "gamer load"?

Yes, there are folks who frown on those who want to shoot the mighty .45 Colt, then use a 160 grain bullet, and I've done the same from time to time, even taken it a step further by using a 140 grain round ball. I get the same recoil as my 1860's using the same ball, but the idea of using cased ammo with such a projectile to accomplish the same thing really grates on some people.

[BlueTrain]

I have no experience with CAS, other than having noticed a few people at the range who were obviously practicing for such a thing, given the guns and gear they were using. But honestly, gaming will begin as soon as the first rule is written. It happens in the local sports car club's motorcross. The ones to beat are not the ones who drive there in their car, it's the ones who tow their car there on a trailer. But in real life, you drive what you drive and there are no rules about gunfights.

But this territory has been plowed up before, when we were all still watching Roy and Dale and Pat on television. Anyone remember the quick draw craze of the 1950s? Surely there are parallels. When did it begin? When did it end? People took it seriously at the time and a few people even thought it had some relevance to actual gunfighting. Chances are, it went through the same phases that CAS has been going through. And to be sure, there was gaming in fast draw, which was even easier because most of it was with blanks anyway. Naturally, there were those who thought that was ridiculous and used live ammunition, if not live targets. That was about where Jeff Cooper came in.

[HiBC]

I tried the CAS for a little while.Overall,I think its a great thing.I'm glad its there,I'm glad folks are having fun.
For me,and this is about me,not CAS,a number of little things added up.I used to fence,with foil,sabre,eppe.I could get my juices up.I could really be in the fight,primal.
Around a bunch of people with guns,and thinking through the procedurals in the scenario,I could not get past cold.I stayed in thinking mode.
Some scenarios were just ridiculous,some were written to the skillsets of the gamer.
The one time I really got into it,and had a ball,was dueling tree.

[ZVP]

I started this thread because I wanted to hear from the grass roots of the shooting community and I did.
Personally my finances kieep me from buying a new shotgun, rifle and some clothing that's what's keeping me out. I believe in wearing a new Hat and buying new guns because I don't want someone elses problems. That's just me because you can wear an old hat...
I think the economy is dragging many things down. I also think that since there are such definate requirements for Clothing and guns (there HAS to be to keep it origonal), the requirements set hard on a beginner. There's really not much you can do about that because if you want it to be right, you need to do it right.
I think CAS will hang on for the next 3 years and then the decisions will be made to keep it or not. The economy will either crash or be recovering and "Play" will again be in peoples bugets.
JMHO
ZVP

[Tanker6]

Originally Posted by ZVP

Personally my finances kieep me from buying a new shotgun, rifle and some clothing that's what's keeping me out. I believe in wearing a new Hat and buying new guns because I don't want someone elses problems. That's just me because you can wear an old hat...
I think the economy is dragging many things down. I also think that since there are such definate requirements for Clothing and guns (there HAS to be to keep it origonal), the requirements set hard on a beginner. There's really not much you can do about that because if you want it to be right, you need to do it right.

I'm not made of money, so I'll relate how I've done it. I hope it provides you (and the others who read this) a story of how you can "play cowboy" and not spend a ton of money.

I was faced with the problem of outfitting not one, but two of us (me and daughter). "Clothes?" they said? "Heck, if you've got a long sleeved shirt and some jeans, your fine." And they meant it. That's what I shot with to start with -- stuff we had in the closet or draw at home. Later, I traded an old vest that didn't fit anymore for a pair of "cowboy pants." I bought suspenders online for $12.99 plus shipping. Daughter has two outfits that are "period appropriate" when she doesn't feel like wearing her jeans (which she still wears most of the time). One is a dress that I bought her at a "big shoot" which cost me $28. The other is a split skirt and blouse I bought online during a sale -- $55 with shipping. I bought two "period appropriate" shirts on eBay for $28 with shipping for both. I also bought another pair of "cowboy" pants for $28 on sale at another shoot.

Guns? Well, I didn't have the first appropriate gun when I started. I shot other folks' stuff for the first shoot or two. Then, I got a line on a pair of pistols. They were new, but had been fired (one cylinder each) and the cowboy didn't like 'em. I got 'em for less than $700 for the pair. I picked up two pistols for my daughter (one at a time) for less than $400 each. Our first rifle was one we'd been "loaning" for about a month when the pard asks, "You wanna buy it?" "How much?" "Awww....how 'bout $500 and you can pay me out as you can." Sold. I bought our shotgun that we're still using off of GB (a 1904 mfg '97 pump) for $230 shipped. I hunted for a couple of months before I got that deal.

Does it take money to play? Sure. So does buyin' a boat and goin' fishin' or payin' your share of the huntin' lease in the hopes of baggin' a deer or something. I've probably spent $2500 over the last 8 months for both of us to play. I could have spent less, but I spent what I had. If I didn't spend it on CAS, I would've spent it on something else in the form of a hobby or entertainment.

The joy I've had of shooting with my kiddos, however, is worth every single penny I've spent.

The one thing I can't reiterate enough, however, is that the folks that I've been lucky enough to call "pards" bent over backwards, and then some, to make sure my daughter and I could shoot -- no matter what guns or clothes we had.

I hope you get in a position that you'll go out and shoot with your local club. I think you'll find out that it's not what some would have you believe it is. Go find out for yourself.

Tanker6
a/k/a Chickahominy Charlie

[oldmansbike]

My wife and I are just getting into CAS. We have been to 4 matches so far and have got to shoot in 3 of them. The people there would loan us guns, let us take their turn and things like that. This Sunday will be our first official match with our own guns. Another shooter there heard we were looking for guns and offered to sell us a pair of Vaqueros and a Uberti 1866 at a good price so we bought them from him. For the shotgun I bought a Stoeger double barrel new. Our holsters were both bought at flea markets for $50 a piece. I reload so that was no problem. The gun cart I made from an old jogging stroller I picked up at a flea market for $40. All together we have spent around $3000 to get started. WE are going to start out using the same guns and see how we like it before we buy any more guns. Yes thats a lot of money but its a hell of lot cheaper than when we got into motorcycles about ten years ago.

[Jim Watson]

A friend's wife is an accomplished seamstress (County fair prizewinning quilts.) and she makes their clothes. You can get sewing patterns for about any period and style of anything. They go as the Gold Dust Twins in matching outfits. Her skirt and his pants; his shirt and her blouse off the same material. She gets lace on the collar and pearl buttons, he gets horn or wood buttons.

Look, people. You don't have to go - I don't nearly as much as I used to - but there is no need to run down my game to justify you staying home.

[Hellgate]

"Don't know what your clubs are like, but there was no socializing, arrive, shoot, go home."

If you are in an area where there is more than one club within a reasonable distance then visit some other clubs. In our area there used to be one large club but the leadership changed, many shooters were made to feel unwelcome over a period of years and many people refuse to shoot there. Now there are two newer CAS clubs in the area where there is more socializing & joviality than the original club which has dwindled in numbers to about 1/3 of what it once was. The two new clubs get along splendidly and most of their shooters shoot at both new clubs. So find a club with a sense of humor that is not run by a "my way or the hiway" mentality and you'll find the fun factor that has made the sport grow.

[ZVP]

Yea, changing over to CAS from your other shooting intresta is the catch! You get invested in other typesw of guns and even other Hobbies Like Boats or Fishing, and then trying to make the switch over to CAS is the stumbling stone Too many Irons in the fire for me, I guess!
It seems everyone with either a Single Action or a Cap and Ball revolver naturally wants to be in CAS! Just seeing the shooters blasting away at the steel and the aura of the times just does something to your soul! Going to an event is really like stepping back in time.
As a first timer, I went to my Club's shoot and got hooked immediatelly!
I don't know which is more intresting? Trying to slam Lead and Steel or trying to look like you belong?
Well I need to buy a Hat!
ZVP

[Noz]

Read all of the detractors posts then go to a SASS shoot. You will be surprised at the difference.
I've been shooting 8 years and have not seen more than 5-6 "gamers" in that time.
Most of the time the people classified as gamers are simply the ones that put in the time to practice and reach a skill level that makes winning probable.
There is no need for "handicap" rules.
There are enough SASS categories to suit everyone. We had a shoot in the midst of August heat three years ago in which we had 12 competitors. We all won. Everyone was shooting in a different category.
There are NO prizes or money offered to winners so every shooter in every category is shooting for self satisfaction or at the most "bragging rights".
I see "costuming" brought up time after time. Jeans, leather shoes and a long sleeve shirt are all that is required.
If you don't like our style of guns, then obviously you belong in another shooting discipline and good luck to you.

[ZVP]

I hope you didn't think I ment I didn't like Single actions or BP revolvers!
Heck, with the exception of 3 Pocket guns, they're all I own!!!
I love Single actions! For some reason my first revolver was a .22 cal. S/A and they just feel best! My "Carry Gun" is a 4 5/8" .357 Ruger Vaquero, It seems to be at home in my hand and I wouldn't fear putting it up against anything to protect house, home, and family! It's just my choice and a "natural" to use.
Now the clothing is a good point. You can go simple or go with custom, period corret suspender pants and shirts without collars. I'm disabled and I get a waiver on shoes due to an old work accident and get to wear my special medical footwear. Yes clothing can get expensive and if that appeals to you why not go for it? I like clothes so I am going to spend more on that than gun leather.
I also shoot BP and have holsters and leather to suit that cause. It's a bit more complex getting BP revolvers running well but not all that hard to do.
I guess if you don't want to compete, you can still dress-up and enjoy the festivities too. You can wear one pistol and dress nice for the dinners and to walk the streets... I've seen many pictures of one-gun cowboys escorting ladies and their buddies around the shoots. I have seen the same at our club.
There is something for everyone in CAS and related clubs!
I think Single Actions get in the blood and once you are hooked, it seems nothing compares to the fit and the aura of the times.
I'd hate to see CASand related Hobbies go away and I don't think they will but the economy is nibbling at everything and this Hobby is no exception.
ZVP

[Scooch]

Personally, I would not be heartbroken if CAS and SASS stays relatively small or at least hovers at a controlled, consistent [but] not exactly fast growing rate of membership. I've participated in hobbies that have a sudden and sustained high rate of interest and growth, spawning upteen associations, societies, clubs and the like and the resulting rules too numerous, conflicting and convoluted to understand. In addition, every fad seeking wannabe jumps in and further muddys up the water, drives up prices, creates safety issues by the mere quantity of attendees and so-on and so-on.

God save those who preserve the guns, shooting styles, clothing and principles of sportsmenship of our history and pass it to their sons, daughters and friends who hold the value close at heart. For those who are in it for their flavor/toy of the week... I'm happy to purchase gear from them at a discount when they move on to something else.

[ZVP]

Scooch,
You're probablly right. Things that go up quick have a habit of falling quickly too.
The main thing with CAS is that everyone keeps to the spirit of deplicting the "times" correctly. Nothing worse than seeing Wild Bill with a pair of Peacemakers! I think being able to see the people as they actuallu looked is the most important thing! Getting a feel for the harshness of settling life into a wilderness is an important point. Towns sprung up with frightening speed and putting structure to them and bringing the modernazations of the East quickly was no easy task. Many towns were totally developed in less than 10 years, with formal governments and all!
The organizations have deplicted all this through it's membership.
It seems that besides the Wild West , you had folks stepping of trains and out of wagons and changing everything! It was quite a time and deplicting it is a chore. Factor in the shooting aspect of CAS and you have two jobs at hand!
Structuring both the towns of the Old West and running shooting competitions takes a strong set of bylaws and doing it Nationwide and with such obvious perfection says a hell of alot for the administration of all the different organizations. Just getting along to do it is monumental!
I think that orginization such as this has a concrete foundation and though membership may fluctuate, the basic structure will continue on. Right now everyone is strapped and I truely hope that I can get to participate in my own way and can help keep it going!
ZVP

[Newton24b]

its good to have mentioned accuracy to the time..

no offense intended but..

after the civil war the us government sold off surplus weapons to the settlers going west. the big majority of the people heading out west in those wagon trains only had the ability to take one gun along, that was commonly a shotgun. luckier ones had a rifle two, or just a rifle.

now if they had a division set up for the "cash poor settler" were you only needed 1 pistol, or 1 shotgun, or 1 rifle, NOT ONE OF EACH< JUST ONE FROM THAT GROUP it would be good. then people would be more eager to get started. and if you used actual loading data from the day, then it would be even more fun.

[Jbar4Ranch]

Some clubs offer a category called "Working Cowboy" where only one sixgun is required, and sometimes even only one long gun; revolver/rifle or revolver/shotgun.

[ZVP]

Yea, I think that historical accuracy is VERY important!
Not every day was the OK Corral or was every person outfitted with state of the art weapons. The real truth is many carried Cap and Ball revolvers (cheap and plentifull) and naturally a Shotgun, usually a single barrel back door type.
Gunfights weren't the norm but they are the personna that most CAS shooters and many reenactors choose to be. Hence, we have an abundance of this sort of weaponry.
I have gone as far as buying books on the clothing and even one on the slang of the day, to try to sharpen up my yet to be, CAS character. I plan to try and develop and maintain a character with the proper flavor of the era. It's no easy point to try and establish! There are many good books about the dress of the different decades and you must be very carefull not to cross-over to different decades by mistake. For instance, Hats are really hard to pin down for most were Eastern Daily wear not always the quitesential Stetson. To do it right goes far beyond Levis and a holster... Reserch is half the fun and thank goodness there are a number of good books available to study!
ZVP

[SG29736]

Some people enjoy competing with guns. They find the game that suits them best, and then even though there are going to be some things about the game that they think should be different, they don't let that stop them from getting out and competing and having fun. This is true for SASS, IDPA, USPSA, ICORE or any other shooting competition you want to name.

Some shooters at least go out and try the various competitions to find out what they are really like before deciding which one they like best.

It's funny. As far as cowboy shooting goes, you can tell some people 10 times that all you have to wear is some jeans and a long sleeved works shirt and boots and the next words out of their mouths will be "I don't want to dress up like Roy Rogers or have to wear chaps, spurs, scarves, vests,etc." They choose to completely ignore what the people who actually participate in cowboy shooting tell them and listen to others who profess to know all about it and have really never been involved in cowboy shooting at all.

Then there's that large group that makes their decisions based on their ASSUMPTIONS, usually wrong, about a given sport. Their chosen competition is outdoing each other in finding reasons to not have to get out in front of others and put their commanding shooting skills on display. (Grand master level at avoiding that.) They prefer to think of themselves as experts and great shooters and might find out they don't quite rank where they expected. Luckily, they will never have to find out. Mark (A little better than average shooter, at least compared to those who get out there and give it a go.)

[Fingers McGee]

Thanks for your input Mark. I agree wholeheartedly.

[Delmar]

I shot CASS twice and got out of it before I got in very deep for two reasons.

1. Money has been too tight so I still don't have my rifle. There are people there who generously offered to loan me a rifle for a while but if I'm going to do it I want to use my own stuff and not be a mooch.

2. I got interested in CAS as a place to shoot my cap and ball guns, but nobody else is shooting cap and ball at my local club and they move too fast for me to do anything but load and shoot all day. Which means while everybody else is socializing I am loading my pistols. If I ever get the money thing worked out so I can afford a decent 1892 and a couple of conversion cylinders I might give it another go, at some point. If I stay ahead of this cancer thing that is kicking my but that is.

[Noz]

Delmar, Hang in there on the cancer thing and nobody, nobody regrets loaning their guns.

The cap and ball loading will come with practice. Fingers and I agree that we can load and be ready to take over posse duties in the amount of time it takes two shooters to cycle through.