American or Euro Mag Release - Page 2

Fishbed77 · January 24, 2013, 04:11 PM

Quote:

might be a 1 in a 1000 chance for a button release, but you have zero chance of accidentally dropping a mag on a paddle release.

You also don't shift your grip to release a paddle.

These two reasons are exactly why I find the paddle release to be the superior system.

I find it dissapointing that Walther has dropped this feature from the PPQ.

I was truly considering a PPQ to go along with my P99AS, but the mag realease change (plus the more important fact that mags are no longer compatible) has really tuned me off.

HKFan9 · January 24, 2013, 04:36 PM

I learned speed reloads on my first handgun a HK USP, and I have short thumbs so the HK style mag release (though I no longer own a firearm with it...) is easier for me because I manipulate it with my trigger finger. This gave me the ability to drop the magazine one handed with out altering my firing grip, using my reaction (off) hand to replace a new magazine and slingshot the slide forward.

I do LIKE that style of release.. but I no longer own any gun with it, I just adapted to the US style.

dgludwig · January 27, 2013, 02:03 PM

Like some others have opined, when a "European-style" magazine release is referenced, I've always assumed that a mag-release catch was located on the heel of the butt. Now that this bit of confusion seems to have been cleared up, I would make the point that a European-style mag-release located on the butt of the pistol does have a couple of potential advantages over the "American-style" mag-release, located behind the trigger.
Firstly, though (everything else being equal in terms of training and use) the thumb-operated, frame-located mag-release is no doubt faster to deploy than the heel-release is and can be accomplished one-handed, I think the butt-located mag-release is less likely to be deployed inadvertently (the catch does not ride against the holster continually and it usually takes more effort [and, yes, for the same reason, slower] to dis-engage).
Secondly, as writer/firearm expert and le officer Massad Ayoob pointed out, in cold weather, when people are more likely to be wearing mittens or gloves or have cold, stiff fingers, "...I found that with heavy snowmobile gloves on, the cruder gross motor movements of pushing back the latch with the free hand thumb and ripping the spent magazine out were actually more easily accomplished than finding the magazine release button with a thumb encased in a heavy glove that blunted the sense of touch and limited the thumb's range of movement. In short, in heavy winter garb, I was able to reload the P-220E (with the butt mag-release) as fast, or very slightly faster, than the P220 American."
Regarding the "paddle-style" mag-release, I've come to really like the one on my HK USP40 pistol. I find it just as easy to dis-engage the mag with the index finger of my shooting hand as it is to use my thumb.

Pilot · January 27, 2013, 02:19 PM

I have guns with both styles. Actually, I have guns with three different styles, American button, Euro paddle, and Heel release like on the HK P7's. I actually like them all, especially the heel release as they are the most secure.

**44 AMP** · January 27, 2013, 04:25 PM

And I voted based on that. Now, considering the paddle style, it wouldn't change my vote, but the OP could have been clearer...

Push the button, or push the lever, about the same, except then you think you need to do one, and actually need to do the other. But that is a training issue, not a mechanical one.

back in the early 80s, when I was still interested in playing games, I had a Browning BDA .45 (still have it, too!), which is a Sig Sauer P220, in its original form. Heel type mag release. When Sig changed the mag release to the "American" style (along with a slight recontour of the grip frame), the older design was specifically called the "European".

Yep, playing games with my BDA, I was noticably slower at a mag change than the guys using 1911s. On the other hand, I didn't have to go back and pick up my empty (or partially empty) mags off the ground afterwards.

One of the things I thought about at the time was, how critical would the 1-1.5sec difference in reload speed be, in real life? And balance that against the American style dropping the mag to the ground. I could easily see a real life (ok my fantasy, but bear with me) situation where you are "runnin and gunnin", and NOT be able to go back and get those dropped mags afterwards?

Ok, you get away from the mutant zombie ninja bikers, but you are now down to the one mag left in your pistol, vs having the one loaded mag left in the gunand 3-5 (or whatever) empty mags in your pouch/belt that can be reloaded...assuming that the slightly longer reload time for the European heel release doesn't get you killed, not losing your mags is an advantage.

Of course, in a game, where time counts along with score, European heel release is a disadvantage. But in Real Life?...not so much, I'm thinking.

As to the paddle release, its just a matter of what you get used to. Slightly less likely to be accidently activated. Some people will find them easy and convienient, others won't.

Coltman 77 · January 27, 2013, 04:43 PM

I like the mag releases on my HK and Walther handguns, they're easy to learn. And probably less likely to be accidently activated than our American style button mag releases.

Both work great if you know what you're doing.

Dragline45 · January 27, 2013, 04:48 PM

I prefer the American style mag release, but on smaller pistols I don't mind the European mag release at all. I have one on my Sig 232 and you get used to it in no time.

Kreyzhorse · January 27, 2013, 07:28 PM

I like the mag release on my Walther PPS but I still prefer the American style. Even as a lefty in a right handed world I think the American style feels more natural.

mete · January 27, 2013, 07:46 PM

Typical Euro heel release you push the release rearward ! P7 you push it forward.Forward is faster in the proper two hand hold as you milk it out with fore finger and thumb. More than one RO at an IPSC match couldn't believe it could be done that fast !

The paddle type behind the trigger I found fast and natural also.
It's always a good idea to use one type for carry so you don't get confused !

Hansam · January 27, 2013, 07:59 PM

I voted before I read the thread. I figured the Euro mag release to be the heel type release.

I've handled HKs and Walthers with the paddle type release and frankly it doesn't matter much to me. Being a 1911 fan though I prefer the button over the paddle but neither is difficult for me to operate. As said before its all about training and muscle memory.

The heel release though - which is what I thought of when I read Euro release - is just a pain in the... heel! I hate them with a passion.

Dragline45 · January 27, 2013, 08:09 PM

Quote:

I voted before I read the thread. I figured the Euro mag release to be the heel type release.

I also did the same. I never knew the European Mag release to be anything but the heel type.

View Poll Results: Do you prefer the Euro Mag Release
Yes	24	36.92%
No and I have had range time with one	33	50.77%
No but I have not had range time with one	8	12.31%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

January 27, 2013, 02:03 PM	#28
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	Like some others have opined, when a "European-style" magazine release is referenced, I've always assumed that a mag-release catch was located on the heel of the butt. Now that this bit of confusion seems to have been cleared up, I would make the point that a European-style mag-release located on the butt of the pistol does have a couple of potential advantages over the "American-style" mag-release, located behind the trigger. Firstly, though (everything else being equal in terms of training and use) the thumb-operated, frame-located mag-release is no doubt faster to deploy than the heel-release is and can be accomplished one-handed, I think the butt-located mag-release is less likely to be deployed inadvertently (the catch does not ride against the holster continually and it usually takes more effort [and, yes, for the same reason, slower] to dis-engage). Secondly, as writer/firearm expert and le officer Massad Ayoob pointed out, in cold weather, when people are more likely to be wearing mittens or gloves or have cold, stiff fingers, "...I found that with heavy snowmobile gloves on, the cruder gross motor movements of pushing back the latch with the free hand thumb and ripping the spent magazine out were actually more easily accomplished than finding the magazine release button with a thumb encased in a heavy glove that blunted the sense of touch and limited the thumb's range of movement. In short, in heavy winter garb, I was able to reload the P-220E (with the butt mag-release) as fast, or very slightly faster, than the P220 American." Regarding the "paddle-style" mag-release, I've come to really like the one on my HK USP40 pistol. I find it just as easy to dis-engage the mag with the index finger of my shooting hand as it is to use my thumb. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

January 27, 2013, 02:19 PM	#29
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	I have guns with both styles. Actually, I have guns with three different styles, American button, Euro paddle, and Heel release like on the HK P7's. I actually like them all, especially the heel release as they are the most secure. __________________ Pilot

January 27, 2013, 04:25 PM	#30
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	European release means heel clip style... And I voted based on that. Now, considering the paddle style, it wouldn't change my vote, but the OP could have been clearer... Push the button, or push the lever, about the same, except then you think you need to do one, and actually need to do the other. But that is a training issue, not a mechanical one. back in the early 80s, when I was still interested in playing games, I had a Browning BDA .45 (still have it, too!), which is a Sig Sauer P220, in its original form. Heel type mag release. When Sig changed the mag release to the "American" style (along with a slight recontour of the grip frame), the older design was specifically called the "European". Yep, playing games with my BDA, I was noticably slower at a mag change than the guys using 1911s. On the other hand, I didn't have to go back and pick up my empty (or partially empty) mags off the ground afterwards. One of the things I thought about at the time was, how critical would the 1-1.5sec difference in reload speed be, in real life? And balance that against the American style dropping the mag to the ground. I could easily see a real life (ok my fantasy, but bear with me) situation where you are "runnin and gunnin", and NOT be able to go back and get those dropped mags afterwards? Ok, you get away from the mutant zombie ninja bikers, but you are now down to the one mag left in your pistol, vs having the one loaded mag left in the gunand 3-5 (or whatever) empty mags in your pouch/belt that can be reloaded...assuming that the slightly longer reload time for the European heel release doesn't get you killed, not losing your mags is an advantage. Of course, in a game, where time counts along with score, European heel release is a disadvantage. But in Real Life?...not so much, I'm thinking. As to the paddle release, its just a matter of what you get used to. Slightly less likely to be accidently activated. Some people will find them easy and convienient, others won't. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 27, 2013, 04:43 PM	#31
Coltman 77 Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2009 Location: NC Posts: 1,244	I like the mag releases on my HK and Walther handguns, they're easy to learn. And probably less likely to be accidently activated than our American style button mag releases. Both work great if you know what you're doing. __________________ "A man can be destroyed but not defeated". Ernest Hemingway Protect our 2nd Amendment Rights -- Join the NRA

January 24, 2013, 04:36 PM	#27
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	I learned speed reloads on my first handgun a HK USP, and I have short thumbs so the HK style mag release (though I no longer own a firearm with it...) is easier for me because I manipulate it with my trigger finger. This gave me the ability to drop the magazine one handed with out altering my firing grip, using my reaction (off) hand to replace a new magazine and slingshot the slide forward. I do LIKE that style of release.. but I no longer own any gun with it, I just adapted to the US style.

January 27, 2013, 04:48 PM	#32
Dragline45 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Posts: 3,513	I prefer the American style mag release, but on smaller pistols I don't mind the European mag release at all. I have one on my Sig 232 and you get used to it in no time.

January 27, 2013, 07:28 PM	#33
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	I like the mag release on my Walther PPS but I still prefer the American style. Even as a lefty in a right handed world I think the American style feels more natural. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

January 27, 2013, 07:46 PM	#34
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Typical Euro heel release you push the release rearward ! P7 you push it forward.Forward is faster in the proper two hand hold as you milk it out with fore finger and thumb. More than one RO at an IPSC match couldn't believe it could be done that fast ! The paddle type behind the trigger I found fast and natural also. It's always a good idea to use one type for carry so you don't get confused ! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

January 27, 2013, 07:59 PM	#35
Hansam Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2012 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 763	I voted before I read the thread. I figured the Euro mag release to be the heel type release. I've handled HKs and Walthers with the paddle type release and frankly it doesn't matter much to me. Being a 1911 fan though I prefer the button over the paddle but neither is difficult for me to operate. As said before its all about training and muscle memory. The heel release though - which is what I thought of when I read Euro release - is just a pain in the... heel! I hate them with a passion. __________________ This is who we are, what we do.