The Language of Mental Illness in Gun Debates - Page 6

MLeake · January 4, 2013, 10:19 PM

While horrific when they occur, nutcases shooting up malls and schools are still fairly rare occurrences.

Murders by stalkers and domestic partners are much more abundant. In many cases, orders of protection are in place but ineffective.

If Newtown were not a big item with antis and the media, and if we really wanted to cut down on homicides, I would think we would get more serious about consequences for stalkerish behavior and for violating restraining orders.

Mental health issues, as discussed here, account for less overall violence than do more mundanely violent causes.

Edit: This goes back to the argument that in many cases, mechanisms are in place - with regard to existing laws - but enforcement is uneven, or law enforcement priorities are elsewhere.

And, Metal God, as I answered you on a different occasion, there are times when doing something (the wrong action) is in fact worse than doing nothing.

People who want to do something because it makes them feel better, not because their actions really help, are deceiving themselves, potentially inconveniencing others, and squandering time and resources.

Second Edit: I am less concerned with how our legal system handles mental health issues, than with how our legal system so often fails to handle violent recidivists.

**Tom Servo** · January 4, 2013, 10:32 PM

Quote:

There is no way in ____ for us to come to an agreement or a legal way to weed out the mentally ill from having guns . The next best thing must be TAKE THE GUNS

We can't do (A), so we must do (B)? That doesn't wash, and it's the foundation of many bad decisions.

First of all, taking the guns won't fix the problem. Second, it punishes innocents woefully out of proportion to those inclined towards violence.

Metal god · January 4, 2013, 10:37 PM

Tom and MLeake I could not agree more . I have more to say about that but it would be way off topic

Quincunx · January 5, 2013, 03:58 PM

Slightly off-topic --- as a practicing psychiatrist, I would like to insert a simple plea for us to remember that people with serious mental illesses are far more often the victims of violent crime than perpetrators of it, the recent subway murders notwithstanding.

Evan Thomas · January 5, 2013, 04:42 PM

Quincunx, thanks for the reminder.

It's an important point, and not at all off topic, given the way this thread has evolved.

ClydeFrog · January 5, 2013, 05:15 PM

I disagree with Q's remarks. There are many, many convicted criminals or registered sex offenders nationwide who were also crime victims, abused children or who had mental health issues.
They in turn, repeated the cycle and lashed out at other members of the public(who had NOTHING to do with them or the abuse).
Look at how child molesters or rapists are treated in some prisons/correctional programs.
Violent behavior is by it's nature anti-social & counter productive. John or Mary citizen in the general public shouldn't be required to have the burden of dealing with a psycotic or unstable subject. That's an issue for the courts & medical professionals.

Clyde

johnbt · January 6, 2013, 12:20 PM

What Quincunx said is true, although in many cases the victim and the perp both have a mental health problem. Add in some alcohol, drugs and living on the street and it's hard to tell who did what and why.

There are lots of damaged people in this world who grew up hard, and the majority of them never cause a problem.

John

P.S. - Decades ago I had a client drop out of sight for a couple of months and the phone was cut off. She eventually called me and said her husband broke her leg in a couple of places with a saw horse.

I said, "He beat you with the 2x4 leg off a saw horse?"

"No, he beat me with the whole thing."

Two alcoholics with mental health problems.

January 4, 2013, 10:19 PM	#126
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	While horrific when they occur, nutcases shooting up malls and schools are still fairly rare occurrences. Murders by stalkers and domestic partners are much more abundant. In many cases, orders of protection are in place but ineffective. If Newtown were not a big item with antis and the media, and if we really wanted to cut down on homicides, I would think we would get more serious about consequences for stalkerish behavior and for violating restraining orders. Mental health issues, as discussed here, account for less overall violence than do more mundanely violent causes. Edit: This goes back to the argument that in many cases, mechanisms are in place - with regard to existing laws - but enforcement is uneven, or law enforcement priorities are elsewhere. And, Metal God, as I answered you on a different occasion, there are times when doing something (the wrong action) is in fact worse than doing nothing. People who want to do something because it makes them feel better, not because their actions really help, are deceiving themselves, potentially inconveniencing others, and squandering time and resources. Second Edit: I am less concerned with how our legal system handles mental health issues, than with how our legal system so often fails to handle violent recidivists. Last edited by MLeake; January 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM.

January 4, 2013, 10:37 PM	#128
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,874	Tom and MLeake I could not agree more . I have more to say about that but it would be way off topic __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

January 5, 2013, 03:58 PM	#129
Quincunx Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2005 Location: People's Republic of Maryland Posts: 421	Slightly off-topic --- as a practicing psychiatrist, I would like to insert a simple plea for us to remember that people with serious mental illesses are far more often the victims of violent crime than perpetrators of it, the recent subway murders notwithstanding. __________________ A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation. --- Cicero

January 5, 2013, 05:15 PM	#131
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	Cycle of violence... I disagree with Q's remarks. There are many, many convicted criminals or registered sex offenders nationwide who were also crime victims, abused children or who had mental health issues. They in turn, repeated the cycle and lashed out at other members of the public(who had NOTHING to do with them or the abuse). Look at how child molesters or rapists are treated in some prisons/correctional programs. Violent behavior is by it's nature anti-social & counter productive. John or Mary citizen in the general public shouldn't be required to have the burden of dealing with a psycotic or unstable subject. That's an issue for the courts & medical professionals. Clyde

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January 5, 2013, 04:42 PM	#130
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	Quincunx, thanks for the reminder. It's an important point, and not at all off topic, given the way this thread has evolved.

January 6, 2013, 12:20 PM	#132
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	What Quincunx said is true, although in many cases the victim and the perp both have a mental health problem. Add in some alcohol, drugs and living on the street and it's hard to tell who did what and why. There are lots of damaged people in this world who grew up hard, and the majority of them never cause a problem. John P.S. - Decades ago I had a client drop out of sight for a couple of months and the phone was cut off. She eventually called me and said her husband broke her leg in a couple of places with a saw horse. I said, "He beat you with the 2x4 leg off a saw horse?" "No, he beat me with the whole thing." Two alcoholics with mental health problems.