Why the lack of pump action rifles?

Inhimwelive · March 28, 2015, 04:36 AM

Personally I think the pump action rifle is a design that doesn't get the credit its due.. Its sleek lines are near perfect. Its easier to stay on target when racking another round then either a bolt or lever action. And they were made with free floating barrel's before that was even popular. The most accurate gun I've ever owned was.a.pump.
That being said it seems to me that it is a design highly neglected by manufacturer's. But why? I would love to see a home defense rifle in pump action. Why should the pump shotgun get all the glory...

Husqvarna · March 28, 2015, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Its easier to stay on target when racking another round then either a bolt or lever action.

I beg to differ

I have owned a 7600 for a brief period of time and now own a blr

by racking with your support hand you dip the barrel (and that is practically after recoil) even if you really sink the stock into your shoulder you do whip the barrel about

with the lever you rack more in motion with the recoil, your support hand does what the support hand is supposed to do SUPPORT
I'd care to say that aimed shots I fire as quickly with my lever gun as I did when I owned a semiauto, and I am talking reddot aimed not scoped sniping aim

and the pump mechanims adds bulk IMO, a lever is so much more sleak

I would like to try a browning BPR thou they seem nice

or that 500sw pump

or the innogun impulse

Jack O'Conner · March 28, 2015, 05:49 AM

There was a company back in the early 1990's which built a short pump action rifle. I think it was named Wolf. But it failed in the marketplace due to high cost for what it was.

My older Remington 760 in .243 is a tack driver. Accuracy is superb and compares to anything made by any other rifle manufacturer.

Jack

eastbank · March 28, 2015, 06:31 AM

any one who has uses a pump knows better. eastbank.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · March 28, 2015, 06:39 AM

"Why not pumps."
Advertizement hype.
More money in selling bolt action rifles. Less manual labor and materials used in a bolt rifles making than in a pumps. Manufactures and sport writers have their readers convinced the only rifle worth having is the bolt action. And by promoting such bogus use they have caused a major change in field tactics and /or the way people hunt big game. But when it comes to upland bird huntin it's a totally different idea they spew.

jmr40 · March 28, 2015, 06:45 AM

If you compare them to a bolt rifle:

* They tend to be much heavier. A 7600 unscoped is 1/4 lb heavier than my heaviest bolt rifle with a scope and mounts on it.

* While the barrels have the potential to be just as accurate as a bolt rifle the triggers don't.

* They are much more complex meaning everything else being equal they are more expensive. A semi-auto is no more expensive to build and has all the speed advantages over a pump.

* While pump shotguns using very low pressure shot shells have earned a reputation for reliability, pump rifles shooting much more powerful center fire rifle ammo have not. There is very little camming action to get cases out of the chamber. Hotter loads that will feed just fine in bolt rifles may well stick in the chamber of pumps or semi's.

* While it is possible to unload a magazine of ammo downrange faster with a pump than a lever or bolt rifle the difference isn't that great. Especially with "AIMED" fire. I can get off 3 shots with my bolt rifles in under 2 seconds, I'm about 1/2 second faster with a pump or lever. But if I throw in the requirement that I actually hit a target at 50 yards my times with all 3 is a virtual tie at around 3.5-4 seconds. A semi-auto is the only action type that is really faster for repeat "AIMED" fire.

* Having to operate the forend to reload the chamber is actually slower in many situations. Most shooters shooting at any distance will use some type of rest for the rifles forend. A pack, shooting sticks, bi-pod, tree branch etc. When shooting from these positions the pump rifle becomes a single shot and the bolt rifle is the fastest manually operated action, easily beating pumps or levers.

I owned a 7600 for a while. In a smaller lighter gun firing pistol caliber rounds it might have been a viable option, but in center fire rifle chamberings it offered me no advantage over my bolt rifles, only disadvantages.

Bart B. · March 28, 2015, 07:25 AM

Quote:

And they were made with free floating barrel's before that was even popular.

What pump has a barrel that doesn't touch anything forward of the receiver?

Pump action centerfire rifles have been around since about 1910 or thereabouts.

JimPage · March 28, 2015, 07:31 AM

I have a Remington 760 in 30-06 I bought used in 1963. I have shot faster and more accurately with it than my friends with Remington semi auto rifles in the same caliber. I love the pump action. I have several types of rifles but the 760 is the best.

eastbank · March 28, 2015, 11:31 AM

if you reload hot in any rifle you risk having a stuck case in the chamber, you leave out the fact your trigger finger leaves the trigger very time you work the bolt and you must reposion it again for the next shot and realien your eye with to the scope or sights and the butt may slip while working the bolt too. the pump offers very fast repeat shots at the same target or several targets. try this with a bolt action rifle, have a friend (for a safe postion) roll 14" tire rims down a hill and see how many hits you can get on it over a fast 50yds down hill roll. i have and the bolt does not do well . my 7600 rem in 3006 with steel rings and 2x7 leupold scope and sling weights 7.6 lbs. about the same for my other big game scoped rifles,less than some. but i don,t mind a 7.5-8 lbs rifle and i,m 71. we get it you don,t like pump rifles, but thoses of us who like and use them know their pluses and minuses and for us the pluses out weigh minuses. eastbank.

Bart B. · March 28, 2015, 01:07 PM

Can someone put 10 shots from a pump action rifle inside 5 inches at 200 and 300 yards in 60 to 70 seconds on a stationary target?

Bolt guns have been doing that for decades.

barnbwt · March 28, 2015, 01:23 PM

Well, if a K31 can do it, it stands to reason a suitably designed pump could as well.

Bake · March 28, 2015, 01:26 PM

That's easiest question of all, (to asker)...(Wait for it)...No one, (repeat) No one wants one, and no one is willing to pay a fair price for one...

Now wasn't that easy?

Gunplummer · March 28, 2015, 03:49 PM

I used to see plenty around, but nobody wants to hunt hard anymore. Most new gun buyers seem to want to go out west and lay on the ground or use shooting sticks. This is is kind of hard to do with a pump. I never liked them because of the length. I bought a pump shotgun when I was a kid and soon went back to the single shot. As far as accuracy, I always found it amazing just how accurate they were at "Live turkey shoots".

Mobuck · March 28, 2015, 05:24 PM

Pump action rifles road the wave of the extremely popular pump action shotguns and Remington had a near monopoly. Then the popularity of the bolt rifle increased. Now, it's either bolt action or semi-auto. Trends rise and fall.

reynolds357 · March 28, 2015, 06:20 PM

Anything a pump does, an auto loader does better.

bamaranger · March 28, 2015, 10:57 PM

The pump lives on in the state of PA, where auto rifles are not legal for deer/bear. The Rem pumps, in their many variations over the years, from the candycane 14's and 141's, to what now, the 7600, are still popular there for those wanting fast repeat manual shots. Note the address of the OP and his supporters, no grief intended. I've got family ties to that area, and my ancestors all shot 14's and 141's.

The -06 pump carbine was THE PA deer rifle for a long time, maybe still is, even though a .308 so chambered is likely more efficient. In the other states where SA rifles are legal, you rarely if ever see a pump, unless one was bought on sale at a box store closeout.

My only gripe with the Rem pump is the noisy/loose forearm, and the trigger, which only gets about so good, nothing like a good bolt trigger.

As far as HD/SD pump rifles, Rem did indeed offer a stubby black stocked .223 and .308, and even one that took AR magazines.

Inhimwelive · March 28, 2015, 11:20 PM

Yep, I live in PA now.. Lived in NY for forty years. Never owned a semi auto for hunting nor would if I lived in a state where they were legal hunting implements.. They have there place but for me huntings not one... Its ironic to me that people keep comparing them to semis. If the semi is the undoing of the pump then the lever action and single shot should have went the way of the Beta VCR long ago...

eastbank · March 29, 2015, 06:13 AM

i use bolt,lever,single shot and pumps, and with careful reloads they all will shoot 2-3 " groups at 200yds from a rest. but for jump-stalking deer from short-medium ranges the pumps shine. its more enclosed action is a plus in snow-rain and ease of operation loading-unloading and safe if you have a pierced primer-case head failure you get no gas in the face or pieces of metal. standing firing 5 shots at from 100-200 yds with the same shooter the pump will realy shine. when shooting at a running target the pump is much faster than all but the semi auto. you just have to meny movements with the others. single shot, down lever,insert case,up lever, reaquire trigger and aim, lever action, lever down,lever up, reaquire trigger and aim. bolt action, bolt up, bolt back,bolt forward,bolt down, reaquire trigger and aim(if you operate the action from the shoulder) the pump, pull slide back,push slide forward, no trigger reaquiring, sight picture very close or right on. just my .02cents, eastbank.

reynolds357 · March 29, 2015, 06:17 AM

The lever is nostalgic. Having said that, it does not enjoy the popularity in big game hunting that it once did. A single shot and a semi auto are not really a valid comparison. They are two entirely different purposed rifles. A semi auto and a pump share the same purpose; rapid loading. When looking at a rapid loading rifles, the modern semi-auto is vastly superior to the pump.
(I am not bashing the pump. I am merely answering the OP question regarding the demise of pump sales and offerings.)

eastbank · March 29, 2015, 06:49 AM

i agree, but we can,t use a semi auto rifle for big game animals here, but we can use a semi auto shotgun for small game animals. go figure. eastbank.

Inhimwelive · March 29, 2015, 07:52 AM

Reynolds357 speed loading is a quality not the purpose of a pump action rifle.. All firearms share the same purpose.. I do not shoot pumps because they are faster loading then other actions. I shoot them because in my experience they have the best qualities I look for in a rifle. The only drawback that I could agree with is the rattling forend. However this is such a minor thing it is easily adjusted to. Part of hunting for me is enjoying the overall experience... Pumps add to that experience not take from it..

**44 AMP** · March 29, 2015, 10:13 AM

The early series Remington pumps (14 /141) competed against the Winchester and Marlin lever guns. They had an ingenious tube magazine that allowed the safe use of pointed bullets.

Remington had a line of cartridges that were, essentially the rimless equal of the .25-35, .30-30, and .32 Special. Remington had a big one that Winchester didn't, the .35 Remington. However, Marlin put the .35 Rem in their rifle, and competed, successfully.

When Remington brought out its new pump rifle after WWII (the 760 series,), it was chambered in more modern calibers. The new generation of Remington pumps competed against the Rem 700 series bolt guns and 740 series semi autos, firing the same rounds. The pump lost.

Outside of areas where the semi auto is restricted by law, the pump ("Amish Machine gun") never sold well. They are good guns, but like everything, have their own quirks and drawbacks. Given the choice, most buyers will not choose the pump over the bolt or the semi auto.

Savage99 · March 29, 2015, 10:46 AM

While I have a couple of pumps I don't favor the type.

The M61 Winchester 22, while it's grooved for a scope and shoots ok is only just good enough. Same for the Ithaca Deerslayer I have.

If I were to replace them it would not be with a pump.

Husqvarna · March 29, 2015, 11:16 AM

the rem760 was very popular over here in Sweden for the shooting sport of running deer

100 meters and a deer siluette on a track, I enve think it was an olympic event at some point?

this was way back in the day but most of the old rifles you see here have a 6,5x55 barrel but was it sold with that or was that a Swedish company that made them?

8MM Mauser · March 29, 2015, 12:52 PM

As a younger guy: I really don't understand the purpose of a pump rifle or it's place in the world of rifles.

It's slower than an autoloader...

It's heavier and has a worse trigger than a bolt gun...

and it's more awkward than a lever gun...

I remember handling one of these at Cabela's once and just thinking it was the strangest thing I had ever seen.

I guess my question is: why would you buy a Pump rifle over other options which perform better?

March 28, 2015, 04:36 AM	#1
Inhimwelive Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2007 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 137	Why the lack of pump action rifles? Personally I think the pump action rifle is a design that doesn't get the credit its due.. Its sleek lines are near perfect. Its easier to stay on target when racking another round then either a bolt or lever action. And they were made with free floating barrel's before that was even popular. The most accurate gun I've ever owned was.a.pump. That being said it seems to me that it is a design highly neglected by manufacturer's. But why? I would love to see a home defense rifle in pump action. Why should the pump shotgun get all the glory...

March 28, 2015, 05:49 AM	#3
Jack O'Conner Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Manatee County, Florida Posts: 1,976	There was a company back in the early 1990's which built a short pump action rifle. I think it was named Wolf. But it failed in the marketplace due to high cost for what it was. My older Remington 760 in .243 is a tack driver. Accuracy is superb and compares to anything made by any other rifle manufacturer. Jack __________________ Fire up the grill! Deer hunting IS NOT catch and release.

March 28, 2015, 07:31 AM	#8
JimPage Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Location: Rome, NY Posts: 941	I have a Remington 760 in 30-06 I bought used in 1963. I have shot faster and more accurately with it than my friends with Remington semi auto rifles in the same caliber. I love the pump action. I have several types of rifles but the 760 is the best. __________________ Jim Page Cogito, ergo armatum sum

March 28, 2015, 01:23 PM	#11
barnbwt Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2012 Posts: 1,085	Well, if a K31 can do it, it stands to reason a suitably designed pump could as well. __________________ "I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater

March 28, 2015, 01:26 PM	#12
Bake Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2012 Location: San Joaquin Valley, Calif. Posts: 482	Why the lack of pump rifles? That's easiest question of all, (to asker)...(Wait for it)...No one, (repeat) No one wants one, and no one is willing to pay a fair price for one... Now wasn't that easy? __________________ 1. The pattern board is your friend, use the Dam thing!!! 2. The maximum range of a firearm and/or cartridge, is usually measured in miles, and means nothing. 2a. The effective range of a firearm and/or cartridge, is usually (the ability of the shooter) measured in yards, and means everything.

March 28, 2015, 06:31 AM	#4
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	any one who has uses a pump knows better. eastbank.

March 28, 2015, 06:39 AM	#5
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	"Why not pumps." Advertizement hype. More money in selling bolt action rifles. Less manual labor and materials used in a bolt rifles making than in a pumps. Manufactures and sport writers have their readers convinced the only rifle worth having is the bolt action. And by promoting such bogus use they have caused a major change in field tactics and /or the way people hunt big game. But when it comes to upland bird huntin it's a totally different idea they spew.

March 28, 2015, 06:45 AM	#6
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	If you compare them to a bolt rifle: * They tend to be much heavier. A 7600 unscoped is 1/4 lb heavier than my heaviest bolt rifle with a scope and mounts on it. * While the barrels have the potential to be just as accurate as a bolt rifle the triggers don't. * They are much more complex meaning everything else being equal they are more expensive. A semi-auto is no more expensive to build and has all the speed advantages over a pump. * While pump shotguns using very low pressure shot shells have earned a reputation for reliability, pump rifles shooting much more powerful center fire rifle ammo have not. There is very little camming action to get cases out of the chamber. Hotter loads that will feed just fine in bolt rifles may well stick in the chamber of pumps or semi's. * While it is possible to unload a magazine of ammo downrange faster with a pump than a lever or bolt rifle the difference isn't that great. Especially with "AIMED" fire. I can get off 3 shots with my bolt rifles in under 2 seconds, I'm about 1/2 second faster with a pump or lever. But if I throw in the requirement that I actually hit a target at 50 yards my times with all 3 is a virtual tie at around 3.5-4 seconds. A semi-auto is the only action type that is really faster for repeat "AIMED" fire. * Having to operate the forend to reload the chamber is actually slower in many situations. Most shooters shooting at any distance will use some type of rest for the rifles forend. A pack, shooting sticks, bi-pod, tree branch etc. When shooting from these positions the pump rifle becomes a single shot and the bolt rifle is the fastest manually operated action, easily beating pumps or levers. I owned a 7600 for a while. In a smaller lighter gun firing pistol caliber rounds it might have been a viable option, but in center fire rifle chamberings it offered me no advantage over my bolt rifles, only disadvantages.

March 28, 2015, 11:31 AM	#9
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	if you reload hot in any rifle you risk having a stuck case in the chamber, you leave out the fact your trigger finger leaves the trigger very time you work the bolt and you must reposion it again for the next shot and realien your eye with to the scope or sights and the butt may slip while working the bolt too. the pump offers very fast repeat shots at the same target or several targets. try this with a bolt action rifle, have a friend (for a safe postion) roll 14" tire rims down a hill and see how many hits you can get on it over a fast 50yds down hill roll. i have and the bolt does not do well . my 7600 rem in 3006 with steel rings and 2x7 leupold scope and sling weights 7.6 lbs. about the same for my other big game scoped rifles,less than some. but i don,t mind a 7.5-8 lbs rifle and i,m 71. we get it you don,t like pump rifles, but thoses of us who like and use them know their pluses and minuses and for us the pluses out weigh minuses. eastbank.

March 28, 2015, 01:07 PM	#10
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Can someone put 10 shots from a pump action rifle inside 5 inches at 200 and 300 yards in 60 to 70 seconds on a stationary target? Bolt guns have been doing that for decades.

March 28, 2015, 03:49 PM	#13
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I used to see plenty around, but nobody wants to hunt hard anymore. Most new gun buyers seem to want to go out west and lay on the ground or use shooting sticks. This is is kind of hard to do with a pump. I never liked them because of the length. I bought a pump shotgun when I was a kid and soon went back to the single shot. As far as accuracy, I always found it amazing just how accurate they were at "Live turkey shoots".

March 28, 2015, 05:24 PM	#14
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Pump action rifles road the wave of the extremely popular pump action shotguns and Remington had a near monopoly. Then the popularity of the bolt rifle increased. Now, it's either bolt action or semi-auto. Trends rise and fall.

March 28, 2015, 06:20 PM	#15
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Anything a pump does, an auto loader does better.

March 28, 2015, 10:57 PM	#16
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	pumps The pump lives on in the state of PA, where auto rifles are not legal for deer/bear. The Rem pumps, in their many variations over the years, from the candycane 14's and 141's, to what now, the 7600, are still popular there for those wanting fast repeat manual shots. Note the address of the OP and his supporters, no grief intended. I've got family ties to that area, and my ancestors all shot 14's and 141's. The -06 pump carbine was THE PA deer rifle for a long time, maybe still is, even though a .308 so chambered is likely more efficient. In the other states where SA rifles are legal, you rarely if ever see a pump, unless one was bought on sale at a box store closeout. My only gripe with the Rem pump is the noisy/loose forearm, and the trigger, which only gets about so good, nothing like a good bolt trigger. As far as HD/SD pump rifles, Rem did indeed offer a stubby black stocked .223 and .308, and even one that took AR magazines.

March 28, 2015, 11:20 PM	#17
Inhimwelive Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2007 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 137	Yep, I live in PA now.. Lived in NY for forty years. Never owned a semi auto for hunting nor would if I lived in a state where they were legal hunting implements.. They have there place but for me huntings not one... Its ironic to me that people keep comparing them to semis. If the semi is the undoing of the pump then the lever action and single shot should have went the way of the Beta VCR long ago...

March 29, 2015, 06:13 AM	#18
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	i use bolt,lever,single shot and pumps, and with careful reloads they all will shoot 2-3 " groups at 200yds from a rest. but for jump-stalking deer from short-medium ranges the pumps shine. its more enclosed action is a plus in snow-rain and ease of operation loading-unloading and safe if you have a pierced primer-case head failure you get no gas in the face or pieces of metal. standing firing 5 shots at from 100-200 yds with the same shooter the pump will realy shine. when shooting at a running target the pump is much faster than all but the semi auto. you just have to meny movements with the others. single shot, down lever,insert case,up lever, reaquire trigger and aim, lever action, lever down,lever up, reaquire trigger and aim. bolt action, bolt up, bolt back,bolt forward,bolt down, reaquire trigger and aim(if you operate the action from the shoulder) the pump, pull slide back,push slide forward, no trigger reaquiring, sight picture very close or right on. just my .02cents, eastbank.

March 29, 2015, 06:17 AM	#19
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	The lever is nostalgic. Having said that, it does not enjoy the popularity in big game hunting that it once did. A single shot and a semi auto are not really a valid comparison. They are two entirely different purposed rifles. A semi auto and a pump share the same purpose; rapid loading. When looking at a rapid loading rifles, the modern semi-auto is vastly superior to the pump. (I am not bashing the pump. I am merely answering the OP question regarding the demise of pump sales and offerings.)

March 29, 2015, 06:49 AM	#20
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	i agree, but we can,t use a semi auto rifle for big game animals here, but we can use a semi auto shotgun for small game animals. go figure. eastbank.

March 29, 2015, 07:52 AM	#21
Inhimwelive Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2007 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 137	Reynolds357 speed loading is a quality not the purpose of a pump action rifle.. All firearms share the same purpose.. I do not shoot pumps because they are faster loading then other actions. I shoot them because in my experience they have the best qualities I look for in a rifle. The only drawback that I could agree with is the rattling forend. However this is such a minor thing it is easily adjusted to. Part of hunting for me is enjoying the overall experience... Pumps add to that experience not take from it..

March 29, 2015, 10:13 AM	#22
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	The early series Remington pumps (14 /141) competed against the Winchester and Marlin lever guns. They had an ingenious tube magazine that allowed the safe use of pointed bullets. Remington had a line of cartridges that were, essentially the rimless equal of the .25-35, .30-30, and .32 Special. Remington had a big one that Winchester didn't, the .35 Remington. However, Marlin put the .35 Rem in their rifle, and competed, successfully. When Remington brought out its new pump rifle after WWII (the 760 series,), it was chambered in more modern calibers. The new generation of Remington pumps competed against the Rem 700 series bolt guns and 740 series semi autos, firing the same rounds. The pump lost. Outside of areas where the semi auto is restricted by law, the pump ("Amish Machine gun") never sold well. They are good guns, but like everything, have their own quirks and drawbacks. Given the choice, most buyers will not choose the pump over the bolt or the semi auto. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 29, 2015, 10:46 AM	#23
Savage99 Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Posts: 567	While I have a couple of pumps I don't favor the type. The M61 Winchester 22, while it's grooved for a scope and shoots ok is only just good enough. Same for the Ithaca Deerslayer I have. If I were to replace them it would not be with a pump.

March 29, 2015, 11:16 AM	#24
Husqvarna Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2012 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,000	the rem760 was very popular over here in Sweden for the shooting sport of running deer 100 meters and a deer siluette on a track, I enve think it was an olympic event at some point? this was way back in the day but most of the old rifles you see here have a 6,5x55 barrel but was it sold with that or was that a Swedish company that made them?

March 29, 2015, 12:52 PM	#25
8MM Mauser Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2011 Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts: 647	As a younger guy: I really don't understand the purpose of a pump rifle or it's place in the world of rifles. It's slower than an autoloader... It's heavier and has a worse trigger than a bolt gun... and it's more awkward than a lever gun... I remember handling one of these at Cabela's once and just thinking it was the strangest thing I had ever seen. I guess my question is: why would you buy a Pump rifle over other options which perform better?