US Model of 1917 Eddystone.

[Tad_T]

US Model of 1917 Eddystone

This is a recent acquisition.
*


I know that the red stripes are supposed to denote Lend Lease rifles, but I am pretty sure that this is not the original red stripe if this rifle ever had one. It does not match pictures of any of the ones that I have seen that are supposed to be original.







The stock appears to have been stripped but not sanded.

According to the stamps on the stock it was rearsenaled at the San Antonio Arsenal at some point.

[Tad_T]

It has a March 1918 Eddystone barrel with a good bore. According to some of the serial number lists that I have seen the receiver dates from February 1918, so I am thinking that this may be the original barrel.



Nearly all of the metal is E marked but it has a Winchester bolt. I am not sure what the SN or NS signifies. I was told that it is NS and is a Winchester proof mark.

[Tad_T]

[tahunua001]

nice find. I also would be a bit leary. I have no idea what kindof paint was used or where it was usually painted but that does look a little too pristine to be 70 year old paint. are there any import marks?

[James K]

NS stands for nickel steel.

That rifle has been rebuilt, perhaps by San Antonio, perhaps later by someone else. The Parkerizing has been put on after sand-blasting or wire brushing, not uncommon and not a big deal unless one is paying for an "original" rifle. The stock also is either a replacement or refinished. There is no way to tell whether all or any of the work was done by the Army. One thing for sure, the red band is not right; it is the wrong color and the wrong shape and in the wrong place. It was probably added to give a fake "historical" appearance.

So, a nice rifle and likely a good shooter, but not really a collector's item.

One note, most of those M1917's that were refinished for U.S. service were worked on during WWII, while the 1,100,000 M1917's sent to Englland were shipped during the fall of 1940, before Lend Lease and before U.S. entry into the war. They appear to have been only cleaned, not overhauled, before having been placed in storage at the end of WWI.

Jim

[Jim Watson]

Pristine as first issued USGI is getting scarce and expensive.
A legitimate arsenal rework is of interest and value.
If you could get off the goofy red stripe without hurting the oil finish under it.

[Dirty Dan]

Have a 1917 that is as clean as the one you found. Wow, what a shooter, but doesn't have the funky red paint on it. Some bubba has been at work defacing a WWI warhorse, shame on them. Other that the paint problem, you have a really nice 1917. Ever seen the bayonet for a 1917? Looks like a sword. Makes the rifle look even for fearsome attached!

[tahunua001]

jim, even though most of the red banded 1917s were destroyed(as I understand it anyway) do you happen to know where they were painted, should I ever run across one in person?

[James K]

Yes, there was a red band about 1 1/2"-2" wide painted around the stock and handguard just below the lower band. Some had a white stripe in the middle of the red band. The color was a rather darkish red, not bright red or almost pink like that one.

The purpose was so the British depot personnel could tell that the rifle was not for the .303 British like the nearly identical Pattern 1914. In fact, those M1917's seem not to have been issued, at least not in any quantity. Those that were issued went to the Home Guards, not to the regular army. Churchill complained to FDR that while the British were grateful for the rifles, they only got an average of 5 rounds per gun (and .30-'06 was not in the British supply system and not made by British commercial companies). Roosevelt replied that was all the ammo they could spare.

While it made sense to mark the M1917s because of the similarity to the P-14, they marked all rifles that were in a non standard (not .303) caliber, including M1 rifles which were marked the same way as the 1917's.

I don't know if any were destroyed; an awful lot came back in the 1950's and 1960's before the original GCA 68 banned import of all military surplus arms. Some may have been sent to Russia by the British, but the pictures I have seen indicate those were P-14's, not 1917's.

Jim

[tahunua001]

ahh I see. I knew the red band was to differentiate between 30-06 and 303 rifles but I didn't realize that they did that with M1s as well.

the story I hear most as to why these rifles are not common in the US is because they were destroyed after the war to prevent "military grade weapons" from ending up in the hands of civilians... though that may just be facetious stories to make fun of fuhrer Obama.

[Tad_T]

It doesn't have any import marks on it.

It is a good shooter. I got to shoot a few rounds out of it.

I plan on removing the red stripe and shooting it a lot more. I bought it to shoot it.

Right now I am up at Island Park bowhunting, so that is going to have to wait until later.

[F. Guffey]

The red band is in the wrong place to have significance, the red band should be around the receiver, red with a white band would indicate the rifle was DP. DP means it was a 303 Pattern rifle not a M1917.

Then there was the other band, to keep from confusing countries using both the 303 and 30/06 a red stripe was painted around the receiver of the 30/06, then there was the other one, it had a notch at the top rear of the receiver for longer cases???

The bolt is Winchester.

F. Guffey

[James K]

Could you show pictures of the stripes around the receivers? I have never seen a red (or any other color) of stripe around the receiver, only on the stock.

I have seen "DP" markings electro pencilled into the receiver of M1917 rifles that were in Canadian service; I understand that those rifles were perfectly serviceable, the marking indicating only the non-standard caliber.

Jim

[F. Guffey]

James K, I will assume you are asking me for a picture, I have at least six of them, one is now a 308 Norma, another is a 30/06, 2 are almost magnum Wildcats bench rest types.

When the rifles were DP-ed, they, the British did not take the time to remove the bands, wood or receiver, they simply drilled through the upper wood and chamber of the barrel. Then they painted 360 degree with a brush, there was little appeal, but for $50.00 and all those parts, I have had offers for the receivers with the ears that exceed the price I paid for the sum of all the parts.

Many years ago it was more cheaper to spend a few hours repairing than replacing, back then I had tapered reamers and taps and tapered plugs, all the barrels are magnificent inside, the choice is?? Cut the chamber off ream the chamber to an old 32 with a short barrel.

[F. Guffey]

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Bolt%...0RIFLE/U.S.htm

James K. the link is to an article by D. Culver, in the article he claims the M1917 had a red stripe about the butt stock. There was a disagreement years ago about striping the stock, logic suggested the stripe had to be around the receiver, argument? Who looks at the butt stock and of for stock when loading a rifle in the excitant of a conflict.

Then there was the notch.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...lectedIndex=64

If you scroll advance the slide show a M1917 with a notched receiver will be displayed.

F, Guffey

[James K]

Well, I know that many people know a lot more than I do, but I saw hundreds of those rifles when they came back to the U.S., and the stripes were at the lower (front sling swivel) band, some ahead and some behind. I never saw one on the receiver or on the butt stock. Some had the marking ".30" or ".300" painted in white or black on the band. I never saw one marked "30/06" and suspect that one is a fake. The British didn't call the cartridge that (nor did the U.S. military by WWII).

No one ever suggested that the marking was to be used in combat so the solider could get the right ammo, assuming he had a selection; that idea is silly. It was so the people in the depots would not issue rifles in a non standard caliber to active units. Most of the U.S. Lend Lease arms went to the Home Guard or were used for non-firing training, so the main concern was to keep them from being issued to troops who would have no ammo for them.

There is considerable confusion with "DP" (drill purpose) rifles, but AFAIK, the two markings indicate different things, though both might be present.

(There was a British order listing the markings and what they meant, but it was not always followed and there seems to have been little uniformity.)

There have been many comments about the notched receiver. The most likely and reasonable I have seen is that it was done in Canadian service for rifle teams who were using a longer bullet seated further out for matches.

Jim

[tahunua001]

though I have no horse in the notched receiver race, I am with jim on this one, at least partially. everything I have read about them indicated that the band ran around the stock and handguard meaning that they had to be painted forward of the receiver, not aft.

google image search brings up very little aside from what is in the OP but this

and this

... turned up which do support jim's statements, though I would say it's closer to the stacking swivel than the forward sling swivel but either way...

I did turn up on picture of what I'm guessing is a drill rifle which has a red and yellow band painted around the butt stock and a red stripe on the handguard just forward of the receiver but nothing quite where MR Guffey says it should be.

[James K]

This is from the Garand Collectors Assn. and, while it is on an M1 rifle, it shows both the color and location of the red band that those Model 1917's had.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...7GH7hdcD9xXH-Q

While searching for info, I can across a picture of a Mosin-Nagant with a red band around the butt stock. What it might have meant, I have no idea, but it seems unlikely that the British had stocks of Russian rifles they had to mark as being non-standard caliber.

Jim

[F. Guffey]

“though I have no horse in the notched receiver race”

No ideal why every attempt to contribute turns into an argument, could be traced to mental illness of the Internet. Dick Culver said the the butt stock had a band, he did not mean butt plate and I am not going to demean his effort.

Notch, reminds me of the blind men and the elephant, boils down to ‘what none of them had ever seen’, before I fire a rifle I determine the length of the chamber, then! I determine the maximum overall length of a cartridge that can be chambered, a discipline? Who knows? But if anyone with a M1917 with a notch in the receiver had the ability to determine the maximum overall length of of of a CHAMBER from the bolt face to the rifling they would find the notch was not necessary, other notched receivers, Turks, Peruvian etc..

I have not forgotten the request for pictures, I should not be concerned with the motive for asking but, who knows. Then there was the threat of an Invasion, From? Germany! And I ask, just how exciting would that be? That would be another story 'OF' Mixed rifles, and ammo.



F. Guffey

http://www.wordfocus.com/word-act-blindmen.html

[F. Guffey]

Tad T, someone spray painted the red band on your rifle, I have stamps on a few of my rifles and bayonets with arrows, all of my arrow stamps are broken, when looking at your pictures I do not see an arrow, it is rumored the rifles went overseas with an arrow and came back with a broken arrow, all of my DPs have broken arrows. NOTICE!!! I said it was rumored, we will wait for the delay between posting a response and ‘Googlers’ to catch—up.

F. Guffey

[James K]

I was going to respond, and explain the reason for those notches, but there is no point.

Jim

[csmsss]

Who looks at the butt stock and of for stock when loading a rifle in the excitant of a conflict.

Could well be the stripe is for the benefit of the supply clerk or sergeant issuing ammo, not the guy actually using the rifle, who would just use whatever he was given.

[tahunua001]

Dick Culver said the the butt stock had a band, he did not mean butt plate and I am not going to demean his effort.

nobody is saying anything about the buttplate. on any given rifle stock, be it a 1, 2 or 3 piece stock, the buttstock always refers to the portion rear of the receiver, this is where there seems to be some confusion because you keep using the term "buttstock" and Jim and I keep using the term "foregrip", foregrip being the portion of the stock forward of the trigger group that runs the length of the rifle. though it may be a 1 piece stock, you can not say "buttstock and expect everyone else to know what you are talking about.

no idea why I was quoted in a complaint against arguments when I was clearly offering no input on that matter. more to that point. the entire reason for a gun forum is debate, conversation, and education. without debate, there is no room for accurate education and without education all we would have "is look at my pretty new rifle" threads.

[James K]

There was almost no issue of .30 ammo to British troops. Almost all the Lend Lease and pre-Lend Lease American weapons spent the war in depots, to be issued only as a last ditch measure in the event of an invasion. Although Model 1917's were issued to the Home Guard*, they were rarely fired because of the lack of ammunition. The markings ensured against accidentally issuing those rifles to active units.

*And often seen in propaganda pictures of that time as the British tried to pretend that the Home Guard was a real defense force and presumably scare the Wehrmacht into calling off the invasion. Sea Lion was eventually called off, but I doubt that pictures in British papers of sexagenarians armed with obsolescent American rifles had much to do with it.

Jim