Surplus Powder???

[Leftoverdj]

I see nothing wrong with reloading surplus powder, as long as it is not used for hunting or self defence. Competition is your choice, if you like. Can you imagine a trophy Buck,Antilop "sp" etc: walking away when you spent $2,000 + for a hunt, because you used surplus powder.

Again, why?

Exactly what evidence do you have that surplus powder is unreliable?

Before I go on a hunting trip or load my carry piece, I've worked up a load, done some shooting for reliability, sighted in the weapon, and probably chronographed the load. I know precisely what the powder is doing. If I ever get a bad batch (and I have not in over 40 years), it will get caught long before it reaches a critical application.

If you do not choose to use surplus powder, that's your business. When you choose to publicly dismiss all surplus powder as unfit for hunting or defense use, you should be able to supply a rational justification for that view.

[Sport45]

Didn't Hodgdon pretty much start the handloading industry by selling surplus powder? If I remember right, Hodgdon didn't sell anything but repackaged surplus for many years. Many reloaders didn't know that all the 4895 they were buying was military surplus or pull-down.

[snuffy]

Okay, IF you're refering to my mention of "reading" pressure by means of chrono data and measuring pressure ring/case head expansion.

When you are shooting groups while at the same time shooting over sky screens, you can watch the gradual increase of velocity as you increase the powder charge. In most cases the increase of velocity is linear, meaning it goes up, in proportion, the same amount with each increase in powder charge. I use the loads listed in several loading manuals to come up with a plan to increase the charge weights in even increments. Some, like Hornady, use different increments of powder to come up with even increases in velocity. Meaning they may NOT be increasing in exactly 1.0 grain increments. I DO that. I boil the info down and load in even 1.0 or in smaller cases like the .223 .5 grain increments. This gives, or should give, even increases in velocity. You're dealing with burn rate and a pressure curve.

Now when you reach the limit of the burn rate and pressure curve, the velocity increase starts to get less for each increment of powder. if you push it too high the increase stops, and can even DECREASE!

Now, at the same time, you can be measuring the pressure ring of the case. I don't bother on the lower end of the load work-up. BUT when approaching max, I measure EACH case expansion ring. You just about have to have a factory loaded shell of the same make fired in your rifle. The factories load pretty close to maximum pressure. Measuring those cases, gives you a base line to compare your handloads to. It also helps to be using new virgin brass. Once fired will work, BUT you have to full length resize, then check before and after measurements of the expansion ring to be sure the die reduced the case in that area. Case head expansion requires a blade type of micrometer, capable of reading to the ten-thousandths. It has to be able to get to the bottom of the extractor groove. I don't have one, so I'm limited to case head expansion. Another indication of case head expansion caused by excessive pressure is loose primer pockets. If you're to the point of having primer pockets that got looser than when you primed them, you're WAY over pressure.

As far as the two dealers I've dealt with, hi-tech sends a rudimentary sheet with each order, telling you where to look for loading data and even gives some suggested loads. Jeff Bartlett gives the data right on his web pages.
http://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html

You can get 6 jugs in one box for one $20.00 haz-mat fee. The last order cost $18.73 to ship to central WI from Owensboro KY.

[snuffy]

"Didn't Hodgdon pretty much start the handloading industry by selling surplus powder? If I remember right, Hodgdon didn't sell anything but repackaged surplus for many years. Many reloaders didn't know that all the 4895 they were buying was military surplus or pull-down."

They sure did! The story I heard was that when WW11 abruptly ended, there were train cars FULL of 4831 powder that the govt was looking to sell. Hodgdon offered.05 cents a pound for all they had! Once the govt found a buyer, they sold other large lots of powder to them for about the same price.

Hodgdon nevr has been a manufacturer of powder. They have always depended on others to make the powder they sell. Recently Bruce Hodgdon has bought out the IMR powder company and now the distribution rights to winchester powders.

[Leftoverdj]

Accurate Arms did the same thing, years later. All the early Accurate Arms powders were surplus. They were just a little quicker than Hodgdon to arrange to have their best sellers manufactured for them as the surplus supplies ran out.

When I first got started in the early 60's, the local dealer had 150# tubs of 4895 and 4831 in the back room that he had gotten from Hodgdon. He'd go into the back and weigh you out a pound into a paper bag and mark which it was on the bag.

[Leftoverdj]

Snuffy, my methods are a little cruder. I determine a starting load based on the data given by the dealer and work up watching the chronograph and the accuracy results. I have a predetermined velocity goal based on what can be expected of powders of the burning rate I am using. I stop when I reach that goal, when I note a sizeable decline in accuracy, or when the addition of a grain of powder does not give the expected increase in velocity.

While I am doing this, I am watching bases. Primarily, I am watching primers, but most of my rifles are Mausers and I also watch for the ejector cut to be imprinted on the case head. With slightly tarnished cases, this shows up very clearly as a burnished spot. I am hoping to avoid this with my other measures since it is a sign of over pressure, but when it does occur, I set my max at 1.5 to 2.0 grains less than that charge. A Handi will also warn you. When cases stick, you are hotter than you want to be.

I very rarely get to that point. I'm not one to push for the last 100 fps. I'm looking for accuracy and a useful velocity level.

The easiest and safest of the surplus powders to work with are the very fastest. I start out loading .38 Specials to be fired in a .357. That's an enormous safety margin and 3 grains of powder can only generate so much pressure behind a cast bullet.

[B9mmHP]

I will reply to you once more on this thread. Unless you answer, my question. WHY?

You ask WHY. I think I gave you, my whys, but you apparently haven’t read what I wrote, so I will ask you the same question.

WHY?

1. WHY, dose the powder manufactures sell surplus powder, if it lasts indefinitely, as was written in my reply from Speer Manual # 11pg 32 under STORAGE?

2. WHY, don`t they just keep it, and sell it as fresh powder, rather than running new batches?

3. WHY, does the military sell surplus ammo, if the powder last indefinitely, and the primer is sealed, the bullet is crimped, so no moisture can get in, and it is stored in waterproof containers?

4. WHY, does David Tubbs The National NRA Highpower Rifle Champion for 11+ years, buy only enough Fresh Powder to last a season, and does not buy surplus powder or fresh powder in large quantities to last a few years? He certainly can afford to, but doesn`t? You think that the powder may degrade?

5. WHY, does my Federal surplus “Navy Seal” 9mm 124gr, LOT FC # 230291W128 ammo that looks brand new, not shoot as well as my Fresh Powder reloads do? (That I do not use for my carry gun?)

6. Why, does my .308 cal. 7.62 mm, TZ-80 LOT 6-80 Israeli surplus ammo, that looks decent, throw fliers, and not group? Could it have been made in 1980 and is 26yrs old?

I did not pick this dialogue with you. YOU picked it with me. Why, because you think you know everything and are on a vendetta with anyone that does not agree with you on your surplus powder. That is ok, that is just fine. I have never said that surplus powder was no good.

What I said was, don`t use it for Competition, Hunting or for self-defence.

He!!, you can`t even admit that anything I wrote was right.

Well. I just got off TFl. What I read was amazing. Hodgkin and Accurate Arms buys Powder in train loads. I wonder what the temperature is in railroad car is That is so funny.

Answer MY Why's, leftoverdj.

Sorry about the double Post.

[B9mmHP]

I will reply to you once more on this thread. Unless you answer, my question. WHY?

You ask WHY. I think I gave you, my whys, but you apparently haven’t read what I wrote, so I will ask you the same question.

WHY?

1. WHY, dose the powder manufactures sell surplus powder, if it lasts indefinitely, as was written in my reply from Speer Manual # 11pg 32 under STORAGE?

2. WHY, don`t they just keep it, and sell it as fresh powder, rather than running new batches?

3. WHY, does the military sell surplus ammo, if the powder last indefinitely, and the primer is sealed, the bullet is crimped, so no moisture can get in, and it is stored in waterproof containers?

4. WHY, does David Tubbs The National NRA Highpower Rifle Champion for 11+ years, buy only enough Fresh Powder to last a season, and does not buy surplus powder or fresh powder in large quantities to last a few years? He certainly can afford to, but doesn`t? You think that the powder may degrade?

5. WHY, does my Federal surplus “Navy Seal” 9mm 124gr, LOT FC # 230291W128 ammo that looks brand new, not shoot as well as my Fresh Powder reloads do? (That I do not use for my carry gun?)

6. Why, does my .308 cal. 7.62 mm, TZ-80 LOT 6-80 Israeli surplus ammo, that looks decent, throw fliers, and not group? Could it have been made in 1980 and is 26yrs old?

I did not pick this dialogue with you. YOU picked it with me. Why, because you think you know everything and are on a vendetta with anyone that does not agree with you on your surplus powder. That is ok, that is just fine. I have never said that surplus powder was no good.

What I said was, don`t use it for Competition, Hunting or for self-defence.

He!!, you can`t even admit that anything I wrote was right.

Well. I just got off TFl. What I read was amazing. Hodgkin and Accurate Arms buys Powder in train loads. I wonder what the temperature is in railroad car is That is so funny.

Answer MY Why's, leftoverdj.

[Leftoverdj]

WHY?

1. WHY, dose the powder manufactures sell surplus powder, if it lasts indefinitely, as was written in my reply from Speer Manual # 11pg 32 under STORAGE?

Storage costs. So does excess inventory. Not all surplus comes direct from manufacturers. Much comes from military or manufacturers who bought more than they turned out to need.

2. WHY, don`t they just keep it, and sell it as fresh powder, rather than running new batches?

Sometimes, they do. Sometimes, the reason for selling is that the company has discontinued a powder so the remaining stock goes on the surplus market. Generally, surplus powder was made for commercial or military use and is not salable as canister powder.

3. WHY, does the military sell surplus ammo, if the powder last indefinitely, and the primer is sealed, the bullet is crimped, so no moisture can get in, and it is stored in waterproof containers?

The military does not use .30-06 any more. Nor does it use the .30 Carbine. What 7.62 Nato is currently used is machine gun loads, not the ammo for the M-14. The specs for US military 5.56 have changed radically over the years. All of these changes have left obsolete cartridges to be sold.

Additionally, the brass itself age hardens. You'll see neck cracks in stored ammo before you will powder deterioration under reasonable storage conditions.

4. WHY, does David Tubbs The National NRA Highpower Rifle Champion for 11+ years, buy only enough Fresh Powder to last a season, and does not buy surplus powder or fresh powder in large quantities to last a few years? He certainly can afford to, but doesn`t? You think that the powder may degrade?

Ask him. For all I know, he carries a rabbit's foot, too. Don't much matter. His needs are not my needs.

5. WHY, does my Federal surplus “Navy Seal” 9mm 124gr, LOT FC # 230291W128 ammo that looks brand new, not shoot as well as my Fresh Powder reloads do? (That I do not use for my carry gun?)

You don't know how it shot in the first place. Ammo varies.

6. Why, does my .308 cal. 7.62 mm, TZ-80 LOT 6-80 Israeli surplus ammo, that looks decent, throw fliers, and not group? Could it have been made in 1980 and is 26yrs old?

Again, ammo varies and you don't know how it shot in the first place . You could rather easily run some tests. Pull some bullets with an inertial puller. Shoot those bullets in place of the bullets you usually use of the same weight with a load of known accuracy. Compare the results.

Weight the powder charge of each cartridge as you pull the bullets. That will tell you how exactly the cartridge was assembled. The variation will probably surprise you.

Load the average charge of the pulled powder into your known accuracy load with no other changes. It may not shoot as well as your accuracy load, but if the fliers go away, it was not the powder causing them.

I did not pick this dialogue with you. YOU picked it with me. Why, because you think you know everything and are on a vendetta with anyone that does not agree with you on your surplus powder. That is ok, that is just fine. I have never said that surplus powder was no good.

What I said was, don`t use it for Competition, Hunting or for self-defence.
He!!, you can`t even admit that anything I wrote was right.

It just was not relevant. No amount of speculation is a match for real world experience. Several other posters and I have shot considerable amounts of surplus powder with very satisfactory results. If you shoot Hodgdon or Accurate Arms powders, you may well have done so yourself without realizing it. It's the results that count, not the source and age of the powder.

Well. I just got off TFl. What I read was amazing. Hodgkin and Accurate Arms buys Powder in train loads. I wonder what the temperature is in railroad car is That is so funny.

That's a fact. This whole thing has been funny.

Answer MY Why's, leftoverdj.

[meplat]

Okay, IF you're refering to my mention of "reading" pressure by means of chrono data and measuring pressure ring/case head expansion.

This is some good information, snuffy. Thanks. Leftoverdj covers some more ground that I always rely on in any case as well. Things like enlarged primer pockets, ejector marks on the case rim, extraction ease, bolt lift (only had to use that ONCE as an indicator, and it was NOT a good feeling), case stretch, etc...I do chronograph, but have been more concerned with pressure spikes that would indicate a drastic overload. This information gives me a bit better understanding of how to better use the sky screens to know what is happening with my loads.

I do check case head dimensions regularly, log the number of trimmings and discard at the fifth trim (and suspect the loads may be a bit warm if they don't make it to the fifth trim). My newphew, an A-10 pilot, says I "preflight" my bike like he does his aircraft before take off, so I guess I am a bit overly cautious, but like I said, my son is often a passenger on my bike, and my son and daughter both are often to be found on the range with me shooting handloaded ammo. Any tips (even ones that re-inforce the ones I am already aware of) are appreciated.

I am printing this stuff off and placing it in my reloading library for futher perusal...so any more information you can think of will be logged for posterity's sake as well as for further consideration. Heck, after reading "The ABC's of Metallic Cartridge Reloading" I let my press sit idle for six weeks while I digested all Matunas had to say. Any changes I make are made after MUCH careful consideration.

[B9mmHP]

Thank you for your reply, it makes since.

I have never used Hodgon or Accurate arms.

I do have a few questions on the burn rate of surplus powder. Having never bought any, do the sellers know what "brand" powder they are selling and the burn rate?

The reason is, I shoot my M14 a whole lot, for just the fun of it, I also use it for some hunting.

The burn rate of powder is real critical for the M14 and other service rifles, lest you rune a $1000.00+ rifle with excessive pounding of the bolt, or you wont get proper extraction with a to slow burn rate.

I know you and snuffy work your loads up, as I also do using a chronograph. But, I use powder that the manufacture gives the burn rate. So that is not to much concern to me.

How can you tell what burn rate you get with a crono?

If I get close to the velocity of the bullet that is listed in a manual, how do I know that it is still not pounding my receiver to hard? The cartridge my not show there is excessive pressure in a simi-auto, but would in a bolt gun, primer loose, flattened etc: It would also do the same in a simi, but at that point I may have damaged my rifle.This senareo is if there is no burn rate given from the seller of surplus powder.

I may even use surplus powder for plinking.

[Leftoverdj]

9mm, most surplus powder is sold as "data powder" or "similar to". This means that it is close enough to a known powder to use the same data, with a little extra care. As you know, even a new one pound can may vary from your last can to call for an adjustment of a grain or so in your charge. With surplus powder, the adjustment might be as much as 10% so some care is needed.

A powder than is "similar to" one of the standard .308 powders will be close enough to be used in your M-14, although I would not start my workup in that rifle. I'd use whatever bolt action I had around in one of the military .30s. A .308 would be ideal, .303 Brit, 7.7 Jap, 7.62x54R or anything else in that class would work. Chronograph a couple of starting loads and see how closely the surplus corresponds to the book figures for the powder you are using the data for. Work up to make sure that the working max is something close to the book max and chrony.

If you started out with something similar to H-335, you might find out that the powder you have gives the same results as H-335 but takes 2 grains more to do so in cases of about .308 capacity. Might be 3 grains less. Just mark that on your jug and you are set as long as that lot lasts.

You can go to your M-14 now, or even another cartridge. You know your powder is fairly close to H-335 and a rough correction factor. From then on, you work up just as you would with H-335.

Other powders that would be suitable might be more similar to Bl-C(2) or to H-4895. Follow the same drill and locate your surplus powder on a burning rate chart closest to the powder it's most similar to. Anything that falls in the range between H-322 and IMR 4320 is suitable for your M-14.

The seller did something very similar to establish just what he had. Just the information that the powder was originally intended for .223, .308, or .50 BMG would give a canny, very experienced handloader enough information to get started on. It can even be done with no clue as to what you have to work with but that's best left to the pros.

[Leftoverdj]

B9mm, the internet just swallowed my half hour long explanation. The short version is that a powder close to another will have about the same burning rate. A powder that will drive a 150 grain bullet to 2700-2800 fps from a .308 case with a charge of about 45 grains at reasonable pressures will be suitable for your M-14. If it takes more than 47 or less than 42, I would not use if.

I'd do the initial workup in a bolt gun, though.

[brickeyee]

In many cases the only 'surplus' to the powder being sold is that the ammunition loader purchased more than it turns out they needed to fulfill a contract.
There is often not enough to fill another contract, and the next batch purchased will require work up anyway.
The solution is to often sell off the excess to a willing buyer.
The powder is brand new, perfect powder. It was just not needed.

The bench rest guys buy large lots of a powder from a batch they like and use it for as long as they can. A good batch is like gold and often is gone very quickly as word gets around.
I have even seen ads looking to purchase a few additional pounds of a 10 year old powder by lot number to stretch a thin remaining supply.
There is still a lot of surplus WWII powder around. Radford Army Ammunition Plant reprocess the powder to extract the nitrocellulose and than makes other propellant. The cannon type powders they start with have a lower nitrocellulose content than modern powders and are not useful ‘as is’.

http://www.house.gov/boucher/docs/RAAPstate03.htm