Firearms in parking lot (OHIO) - Page 2

pichon · January 4, 2011, 10:43 PM

If my employer TOLD ME he was going to search my vehicle, I would tell him where to go, whether I had a weapon in it or not. Find a new freakin job with a company that treats its employees like adults! It isn't worth your safety to put up with ignorant employers.

spacemanspiff · January 5, 2011, 01:10 PM

If the policy is NOT written in the employee handbook, (which I am sure you had to sign a statement acknowledging that you have read the handbook and that you are expected to follow its guidelines), my un-lawyerly opinion is that a sign posted on the bulletin board does not hold any authority. Any changes to the employee handbook should be made in writing and handed to each employee, and the employee signs another statement acknowledging they have been informed of the new rule/guideline/etc.

Otherwise, there is no way your employer could lawfully claim that 'all employees were made aware of the changes to the handbook'.

And +1 to researching further exactly what laws your state has regarding 'at-will'. In my state, which is 'at-will employment', its one way or the other, but not both. I can be terminated for no reason, I can quit for no reason. But the moment the employer gives up a reason, they can't hide behind 'at-will', they must be able to provide adequate documentation that there was cause for termination, or they risk facing a lawsuit.

fisherman66 · January 5, 2011, 04:02 PM

Quote:

I can be terminated for no reason, I can quit for no reason. But the moment the employer gives up a reason, they can't hide behind 'at-will', they must be able to provide adequate documentation that there was cause for termination, or they risk facing a lawsuit.

Employers face the risk of a lawsuit regardless. Whether or not it is meritorious will depend on the precedings.

I'm not aware of a situation where my company has chosen to refuse to give a reason. Refusing to give a reason will most certainly cost an employer an unemployment case.

Dr. Strangelove · January 5, 2011, 04:26 PM

I wouldn't ask the question, I'd just continue to keep whatever I felt like keeping in my personal automobile and keep my mouth shut. If the company supplies me a car, then they can tell me what I can and can't keep in their car.

Unless I worked with some sort of classified information, there is no way I would put up with what you're describing. Security making you empty your pockets? :barf: Really? No way, that would be my last day on the job. Search my personal car, nope, sorry, not happening.

Unless you work in intelligence/national security, you don't sign away your personal freedoms when you take a job.

I suppose you could say that I feel rather strongly that what I do outside of the time I am actually on the job is none of my employer's business.

zukiphile · January 5, 2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I suppose you could say that I feel rather strongly that what I do outside of the time I am actually on the job is none of my employer's business.

On the other hand, an employer might consider whether they intend to continue your employment their business. The Cleveland Clinic will fire you if you are caught smoking twice, even if you are off duty.

Just to be obvious, it is a lot easier to be an absolutist about one's rights in the workplace if he already has a fully satisfactory job. If one needs to empty his pockets to pay his mortgage, he will almost always comply.

fisherman66 · January 5, 2011, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Just to be obvious, it is a lot easier to be an absolutist about one's rights in the workplace if he already has a fully satisfactory job. If one needs to empty his pockets to pay his mortgage, he will almost always comply.

Or an infant at home

Or a pregnant wife

Or need critical health care

Or all of the above

ect, ect, ect.

It's amazing how little those can principals mean.

m.p.driver · January 5, 2011, 05:33 PM

I work in Sharonville and our company jumped on the no weapons bandwagon several years ago.They included no weapons in parking lot.I told our manager at the time,fine,since there are several buildings in this industrial complex, which is our parking lot and which is open parking?Then i asked him to provide a copy of the company policy and their acknowledgment that they are taking away my right to protect myself to and from work.And that they would be held responsible for my death or injury by my inability to protect myself.And to please give me two copies so i could give one to my lawyer.
I'm still waiting and nothing else was ever said on the subject.

fisherman66 · January 5, 2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

And to please give me two copies so i could give one to my lawyer.
I'm still waiting and nothing else was ever said on the subject.

What did your lawyer say? Or was that a bluff?

stickhauler · January 7, 2011, 11:10 PM

Sounds to me like an attorney blew smoke up that employers butt, because I sure have never heard of any such provision in Ohio law, and my grandson was terminated a few months ago by his employer without just cause, and J&FS said there was nothing they could do to help him, other than run a unemployment claim for him. He had injured himself on the job, and they decided that since he couldn't move furniture, they no longer needed him.

xMINORxTHREATx · January 7, 2011, 11:55 PM

Dang. I wanna find that lawyer then. haha

Well update on the firearms in the parking lot issue.

Security stopped me today. Asked to see my pocket knife. State law is loose and doesn't give an exact size, more of a judgement call by an officer or judge, but either way, company policy is a 3 1/2 inch blade. Although they GIVE us razor knives with 7 inch blades on them.

This is the same model knife I had on me. They stopped me when I took it out to go through the metal detector. Measured it and tried to tell me they were going to confiscate it. I lost my cool a little, and asked them if they were sworn police officers, and when they said no, I asked them to give me the knife back. They refused at first, and I started to get really heated, but when I insisted on getting my supervisor out here with a copy of the handbook he changed his tune. I told my supervisor he was harassing me. Surprise surprise, thats not his first complaint about the same guard.

veggiengo · January 9, 2011, 01:47 PM

My question is the no guns allow sign whether it's on private or public land or not constitutional. The 2A states pretty clearly - No laws against.....

By banning guns in a certain places and parking lots, it's pretty much cancel out the right to bear arms, legally that is.

fisherman66 · January 9, 2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

My question is the no guns allow sign whether it's on private or public land or not constitutional. The 2A states pretty clearly - No laws against.....

I believe you mean "Shall not be infringed".

You have a lot of gall to try to dictate what can come on MY property.

Quote:

By banning guns in a certain places and parking lots, it's pretty much cancel out the right to bear arms, legally that is.

Kinda Pollyannaish. Who pays the rent on that parking lot? Or "other", If someone murders or molests my child and I can get a gun through security at court I will surely kill them.

How much free speech do you have? Do you think that right applies here?

veggiengo · January 9, 2011, 02:12 PM

What does .."shall not be infringed" mean?

fisherman66 · January 9, 2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

The 2A states pretty clearly - No laws against.....

2A

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

WANT A LCR 22LR · January 9, 2011, 02:25 PM

I wonder what the rules concerning open / concealed carry were in the time frame 2A was written. Even better, what were the rules in the actual building that it was written and signed into law. Were there challenges back then?

Should tell the intent of 2A concerning limiting access to certain places don't you think?

veggiengo · January 9, 2011, 02:42 PM

The area of my concern that you guys are missing is illustrating in the parking lot area issue. If one can carry legally, go to work everyday, get to work and park your car, and the place of work says no guns allow, then how is one suppose to bear arms daily? Legally that is.

Therefore, I ask is the rule (parking lot) constitutional, say as in a federal institution? No one is dictating anything on private property, the owner can tell someone to leave. That's fine but if one cannot leave weapons in vehicle, then the right to bear arms has been infringed. That's my opinion.

stickhauler · January 9, 2011, 02:44 PM

To my knowledge, there were no rules concerning concealed or open carry at that time, anywhere. I'm sure there were places where people carried their muskets to church, for self protection in the event of an Indian attack.

Firearms at that time were not very capable of being concealed, as you'd have to had a powder horn (or some vessel carrying black powder) and balls along to reload. Pistols were more for duels, or close contact battles military officers might face, such as ship commanders. Infantry officers generally were armed with swords.

How exactly do you conceal a Kentucky Long Rifle?

fisherman66 · January 9, 2011, 02:51 PM

Quote:

The area of my concern that you guys are missing is illustrating in the parking lot area issue. If one can carry legally, go to work everyday, get to work and park your car, and the place of work says no guns allow, then how is one suppose to bear arms daily? Legally that is.

Therefore, I ask is the rule (parking lot) constitutional, say as in a federal institution? No one is dictating anything on private property, the owner can tell someone to leave. That's fine but if one cannot leave weapons in vehicle, then the right to bear arms has been infringed. That's my opinion.

Nobody is missing that area. Parking space ownership is dictated by state law. In Texas the employer has ownership of that lot. In FL I believe it's considered public area (outside specific exemptions).

I advise my employees that any CHL (CCW) or those who carry only in their vehicle allowed by TX state law to park off property and obviously leave their weapon in their vehicle.

xMINORxTHREATx · January 9, 2011, 03:50 PM

Are there any Ohio gun-law attorneys here? I just need an answer.

lol

Glenn E. Meyer · January 9, 2011, 06:04 PM

The COTUS has not be found to override employer policies or private property ban signs. If you think it does, head to the SCOTUS.

We have debated this intensively before as to whether property rights trumps the right of self-defense. Some say yes and some say no.

You might search on this. Businesses don't have absolutely control so file suit rather than insisting it's your way. Wait for the next 5/4 - but which way?

veggiengo · January 9, 2011, 06:12 PM

In Florida, the law has changed to allow for weapons in cars at work except for Disney I think. The constitutionality issue is on Federal parking lots where I think the government is wrong to ban it. Just as it was wrong when the ban was in the National parks. Pres. Bush changed that. Someone will eventually challenge it (parking lots) in the courts. Ohio? I'm ignorant there.

zukiphile · January 10, 2011, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minor Threat

Are there any Ohio gun-law attorneys here? I just need an answer.

I am an Ohio attorney who represents a number of employers.

As I may have indicated earlier, the issue you raise is not a gun rights issue in Ohio, but an issue of at-will employment.

Also, this board is a great resource for keeping up on 2d Am developments. However, I wouldn't use an internet message board for a legal opinion on which my employment depends.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 10, 2011, 11:09 AM

The best route for parking lots is legislative. But be aware that business will be dead set against it. They have money and tremendous lobbying power.

Oh, businesses are conservative - yep, economically conservative. In TX, the TSRA clearly pointed out that parking lot carry was killed by business and not antis (who are politically weak).

January 4, 2011, 10:43 PM	#26
pichon Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 439	If my employer TOLD ME he was going to search my vehicle, I would tell him where to go, whether I had a weapon in it or not. Find a new freakin job with a company that treats its employees like adults! It isn't worth your safety to put up with ignorant employers. Last edited by pichon; January 4, 2011 at 10:49 PM.

January 5, 2011, 01:10 PM	#27
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	If the policy is NOT written in the employee handbook, (which I am sure you had to sign a statement acknowledging that you have read the handbook and that you are expected to follow its guidelines), my un-lawyerly opinion is that a sign posted on the bulletin board does not hold any authority. Any changes to the employee handbook should be made in writing and handed to each employee, and the employee signs another statement acknowledging they have been informed of the new rule/guideline/etc. Otherwise, there is no way your employer could lawfully claim that 'all employees were made aware of the changes to the handbook'. And +1 to researching further exactly what laws your state has regarding 'at-will'. In my state, which is 'at-will employment', its one way or the other, but not both. I can be terminated for no reason, I can quit for no reason. But the moment the employer gives up a reason, they can't hide behind 'at-will', they must be able to provide adequate documentation that there was cause for termination, or they risk facing a lawsuit. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

January 7, 2011, 11:55 PM	#35
xMINORxTHREATx Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2010 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 286	Dang. I wanna find that lawyer then. haha Well update on the firearms in the parking lot issue. Security stopped me today. Asked to see my pocket knife. State law is loose and doesn't give an exact size, more of a judgement call by an officer or judge, but either way, company policy is a 3 1/2 inch blade. Although they GIVE us razor knives with 7 inch blades on them. This is the same model knife I had on me. They stopped me when I took it out to go through the metal detector. Measured it and tried to tell me they were going to confiscate it. I lost my cool a little, and asked them if they were sworn police officers, and when they said no, I asked them to give me the knife back. They refused at first, and I started to get really heated, but when I insisted on getting my supervisor out here with a copy of the handbook he changed his tune. I told my supervisor he was harassing me. Surprise surprise, thats not his first complaint about the same guard. __________________ Glaine ár gcroí Neart ár ngéag Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar

January 9, 2011, 03:50 PM	#44
xMINORxTHREATx Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2010 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 286	Are there any Ohio gun-law attorneys here? I just need an answer. lol __________________ Glaine ár gcroí Neart ár ngéag Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar

January 9, 2011, 06:04 PM	#45
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	The COTUS has not be found to override employer policies or private property ban signs. If you think it does, head to the SCOTUS. We have debated this intensively before as to whether property rights trumps the right of self-defense. Some say yes and some say no. You might search on this. Businesses don't have absolutely control so file suit rather than insisting it's your way. Wait for the next 5/4 - but which way? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 5, 2011, 04:26 PM	#29
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	I wouldn't ask the question, I'd just continue to keep whatever I felt like keeping in my personal automobile and keep my mouth shut. If the company supplies me a car, then they can tell me what I can and can't keep in their car. Unless I worked with some sort of classified information, there is no way I would put up with what you're describing. Security making you empty your pockets? :barf: Really? No way, that would be my last day on the job. Search my personal car, nope, sorry, not happening. Unless you work in intelligence/national security, you don't sign away your personal freedoms when you take a job. I suppose you could say that I feel rather strongly that what I do outside of the time I am actually on the job is none of my employer's business.

January 5, 2011, 05:33 PM	#32
m.p.driver Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 552	I work in Sharonville and our company jumped on the no weapons bandwagon several years ago.They included no weapons in parking lot.I told our manager at the time,fine,since there are several buildings in this industrial complex, which is our parking lot and which is open parking?Then i asked him to provide a copy of the company policy and their acknowledgment that they are taking away my right to protect myself to and from work.And that they would be held responsible for my death or injury by my inability to protect myself.And to please give me two copies so i could give one to my lawyer. I'm still waiting and nothing else was ever said on the subject.

January 7, 2011, 11:10 PM	#34
stickhauler Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Posts: 244	Sounds to me like an attorney blew smoke up that employers butt, because I sure have never heard of any such provision in Ohio law, and my grandson was terminated a few months ago by his employer without just cause, and J&FS said there was nothing they could do to help him, other than run a unemployment claim for him. He had injured himself on the job, and they decided that since he couldn't move furniture, they no longer needed him.

January 9, 2011, 01:47 PM	#36
veggiengo Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 16	My question is the no guns allow sign whether it's on private or public land or not constitutional. The 2A states pretty clearly - No laws against..... By banning guns in a certain places and parking lots, it's pretty much cancel out the right to bear arms, legally that is.

January 9, 2011, 02:12 PM	#38
veggiengo Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 16	What does .."shall not be infringed" mean?

January 9, 2011, 02:25 PM	#40
WANT A LCR 22LR Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Posts: 389	I wonder what the rules concerning open / concealed carry were in the time frame 2A was written. Even better, what were the rules in the actual building that it was written and signed into law. Were there challenges back then? Should tell the intent of 2A concerning limiting access to certain places don't you think?

January 9, 2011, 02:42 PM	#41
veggiengo Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 16	The area of my concern that you guys are missing is illustrating in the parking lot area issue. If one can carry legally, go to work everyday, get to work and park your car, and the place of work says no guns allow, then how is one suppose to bear arms daily? Legally that is. Therefore, I ask is the rule (parking lot) constitutional, say as in a federal institution? No one is dictating anything on private property, the owner can tell someone to leave. That's fine but if one cannot leave weapons in vehicle, then the right to bear arms has been infringed. That's my opinion.

January 9, 2011, 02:44 PM	#42
stickhauler Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Posts: 244	To my knowledge, there were no rules concerning concealed or open carry at that time, anywhere. I'm sure there were places where people carried their muskets to church, for self protection in the event of an Indian attack. Firearms at that time were not very capable of being concealed, as you'd have to had a powder horn (or some vessel carrying black powder) and balls along to reload. Pistols were more for duels, or close contact battles military officers might face, such as ship commanders. Infantry officers generally were armed with swords. How exactly do you conceal a Kentucky Long Rifle?

January 9, 2011, 06:12 PM	#46
veggiengo Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 16	In Florida, the law has changed to allow for weapons in cars at work except for Disney I think. The constitutionality issue is on Federal parking lots where I think the government is wrong to ban it. Just as it was wrong when the ban was in the National parks. Pres. Bush changed that. Someone will eventually challenge it (parking lots) in the courts. Ohio? I'm ignorant there.

January 10, 2011, 11:09 AM	#48
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	The best route for parking lots is legislative. But be aware that business will be dead set against it. They have money and tremendous lobbying power. Oh, businesses are conservative - yep, economically conservative. In TX, the TSRA clearly pointed out that parking lot carry was killed by business and not antis (who are politically weak). __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens