The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 2, 2010, 08:35 AM   #1
scottperk
Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2010
Posts: 75
Full Power +P 10mm auto recipes

We all know by now that the 10mm was downloaded to produce the
SW 40 caliber cartridge. Well I now have a 10mm S&W pistol
and I might as well load it to the max SAAMI specs or else I wasted
my money. ( I could have bought a SW 40 if I wanted downloaded
ammo.)
I have been researching all the factory LoadData manuals for the
hottest 10mm Auto loads and way below here is the results of my research.

I am leaning toward mid range size HP bullets of
150gr-165gr for self defense so it looks like I will be
using either Winchester AutoComp or Accurate ArmsAA#9 or
IMR 800-X.

Does anyone have any experience with these and recomendations
as they all produce some pretty impressive performances according
to the tables.
I am interested in bulkiness ( dont want to have to compress
loads, how clean the powder burns, muzzle flash could
be a factor if all other items were equal, cost is always
important, hey and availability might be the most important
criteria.



Accurate Arms manual ( 2010 data ) using no 9 powder---------
155gr AA#9 15.9gr 1414 fps
165gr AA#9 15.0gr 1341 fps
180gr AA#9 13.5gr 1242 fps
180 Speer JHP: AA#9 14.5gr 1290fps 32,600psi ( AA Manual #2)
180 XTP: AA#9 13.5gr 1242fps 34,100 psi ( AA Manual #2 )
200gr AA#9 12.5gr 1170 fps

Hodgdon manual (2010 data) -------------------------
135gr Autocomp 9.5gr 1476fps 34,500 psi
155gr Autocomp 8.9gr 1362fps 35,700 psi
155gr IMR 800-X 9.8gr 1350fps 30,000 psi *NOTE PRESSURE
180gr IMR 800-X 9.7gr 1320fps 34,200psi ( 2004 IMR manual )
180gr Longshot 9.5gr 1287fps 34,800 psi
200gr Longshot 8.2gr 1172fps 35,000 psi
***note Autocomp is a Winchester powder

Accurate Manual (edition 3.2.2) re AA#7
180gr Hornady XTP (JHP) with a max of 10.7 grains AA#7
180gr Ranier plated HP, with a max of 11.0 grains AA#7
190gr Sierra FPJ with a max of 11.2 grains AA#7

Alliant Manual (2010 data)-------------------------
180gr Speer GDHP bullet
180gr Blue Dot 11gr 1295fps
165gr Speer GoldDot Power Pistol 10gr 1314fps

Hornady 7th edition Manual------------------------
Hornady’s 180gr bullets MAX: AA #7 12.0 gr @ 1200 fps
155gr HP XTP MAX: AA#7 14.6gr.

Speer #14 Manual-------- 5” barrel
180gr GDHP or TMJ-FN MAX BlueDot 11.0gr @ 1295 fps.
Strangely, this Speer manual does not list AA No.9
for 180gr bullets, but does for some of its lighter bullets in 10mm.
scottperk is offline  
Old May 2, 2010, 08:50 AM   #2
MR 8x57js
Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2010
Posts: 36
Scott
A word to the wise be very careful about putting full power 10MM loads in your S&W the frames have been know to crack under full power loads. What you can do his replace your factory recoil spring with a wolf spring the next size up
MR 8x57js is offline  
Old May 2, 2010, 09:23 AM   #3
freakshow10mm
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 1,398
S&W did an 18,000 round test in the 90s using full power Norma ammunition. They stopped at 18,000 rounds because the gun didn't break and the frame didn't crack. The gun can take the ammo it was designed to handle.

I load a ton of 10mm.

Your powders you want for full power (no such thing as +P 10mm) are #9 or Longshot. 800X meters like crap. It has also been known to blow up guns due to it's finicky pressure curve. That's why Hodgdon removed the 135gr/800X data from the manual when they took over IMR powder distribution.

Longshot is a reformulated HS7 and is excellent for the 10mm. Nearly ideal.

#9 is a great powder, meters like water due to it's sand grain ball engineering. Ball powders are not compressible, BTW. Try pushing down on a jar of marbles. Same thing.

Blue Dot is another good powder and was the first one I tried when I started handloading on the Lee hand press. Similar burn rate as #9 but being a flake powder it doesn't meter as well, but still accurately enough for the 10mm. You might get .1gr variation in a Dillon or RCBS type powder measure but that's pretty OK.

For range loads, WSF, HS6, or #5 will do just fine. WSF is my recommendation for lead loads as it burns clean, give great velocity, and won't smoke as much as others.

Those powders mentioned are all you need for the 10mm. If I were to keep two powders on the bench, they would be Longshot and WSF. Longshot for heavy loads and WSF for lead and range loads.
freakshow10mm is offline  
Old May 2, 2010, 09:27 AM   #4
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
I have two 10mm, an EAA Witness Elite Match and a Dan Wesson CBOB. Both of these are running 24lb springs.

I only shoot 180gr in mine. For practice and plinking I shoot Zero and Montana Gold 180gr JHP. For hunting and SD I shoot 180gr Hornady XTP. All three of these load the same and shoot the same.

I have tried a few powders in my 10's, Blue Dot, #9, #7, Silhouette, Longshot, 800X and N-105.

Let me start off by saying that if you plan on weighing each and every charge then 800X will work, if you plan on running it through any kind of measure forget it, it meters like corn flakes.

Blue Dot is very popular in the 10mm, It produces excellent velocities, it also produces a lot of flash. If you like "flash" go for it, if not bad choice. I never found DB to be very accurate in my 10's.

#9 worked OK as far as velocity goes, but it was never very accurate in my guns.

Silhouette and #7 run about the same, around 1200fps with Max loads and very accurate. I have less than a pound of each left and I can't decide whether to purchase an 8lb jug of #7 or Silhouette. I really like them both.

N-105 is a joke. I think VV is full of it. They list 9.9gr as Max at 1280fps out of a 5 1/2 inch barrel. 9.9gr of N-105 in my 5 inch EAA gets just over 1000fps.

Longshot will get your attention in a hurry. I will definetly get you the high velocities you are after. What I have found is that LS's velocities will tell you when you have reach it's max. Starting out at Min 8.5gr and working up I found that 9.2gr was my max velocity, anything above that my velocities would decrease. 9.2gr of Longshot runs about 1250fps in my CBOB and just over 1270fps in my EAA. Accuracy is good, Longshot is my Hunting and SD powder.
steve4102 is offline  
Old May 2, 2010, 10:14 AM   #5
mavracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 4,209
I'll just keep it short and put another vote for longshot top end velocitys meters beautifuly and is clean.
I use 9.0 with 180 XTPs for 1200-1250 fps and 12.0 for 1500 fps with 135 noslers.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
mavracer is offline  
Old May 2, 2010, 10:26 AM   #6
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Those official loads from the manuals are still well below max loads for 10mm. My Lyman 49th stops every load for 10mm right around 29,000psi and most of those loads in the OP appear to be in that general area.

Full power loads should generate a max of 37500psi and be near or over 700 ft/lbs with the heavier bullets. Lighter bullets can be loaded well over 800 ft/lbs and still be within SAAMI pressure limits, particularly if the gun can handle a slightly longer round.

Some of those loads on the OP are approaching "true" 10mm power levels but alot of them are not even close.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 2, 2010, 03:57 PM   #7
troy_mclure
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
Posts: 2,716
visit 10mm talk reloading page on ar15armory.com, ive got a thread with lots of guys listing their "hot" 10mm loads.

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Hom...adi-f253.html&
__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
troy_mclure is offline  
Old May 2, 2010, 06:04 PM   #8
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
Quote:
Those official loads from the manuals are still well below max loads for 10mm. My Lyman 49th stops every load for 10mm right around 29,000psi and most of those loads in the OP appear to be in that general area.

Full power loads should generate a max of 37500psi
Lyman is the only manual I have that list pressure. However most of the powder manufacturers list pressure in their data.

Accurate Arms 10MM data runs from 33K to 37,500. Ramshot data runs from 30K to about 36K.

Hodgdon data runs from about 32K to 37K.

Remember the pressure listed is max Average Pressure for the loads tested.
steve4102 is offline  
Old May 2, 2010, 07:32 PM   #9
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
speaking SAAMI

I found that N350 was the best 10mm choice if SAAMI specifications are met.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old May 3, 2010, 05:52 AM   #10
scottperk
Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2010
Posts: 75
The newest kid on the block in powders for the 10mm seems to
be Winchester AutoComp for the mid size bullets 150gr-165gr
which is what I feel best for Self Defense.
180 and 200gr of course for hunting and shooting through barriers.
,,,,, AND when you can line up the bad guys so one shot can take
out 3 or 4 with one shot so you can get your costs down to 15 or 20
cents per kill :-)

I have a SW 1006 am pursuing this because the ammo purchased
from DoubleTap ( 150 and 165gr ) is way more than 100fps below what
is advertised and I am using the 5 inch barrel. I even told them
I was specifically purchasing the ammo for chrono testing.

Too bad. It would seem the ammo makers either feel the need to lie
about performance to garner sales realizing that most of us do not
have chronographs. On the other hand they probably feel they cant
produce their claimed performance because of liability for pressure
overloads. All good news for the reloader equipment companies huh.

I'll tell you why I think and picked the SW 1006 to shoot 10mm from.

I have a friend that has had the SW 4506 for about 4 years
and he has continuously shot 45 SUPER ammo out of it from Buffalo
Bore and he has never changed out any springs or nothing.
I'm talking 200gr 45ACP at 1195 fps. Laste last year I talked
him into reloading for his gun and he is using the Starline 45 Super Brass.

As far as I can tell the 4506 and 1006 are basically the same gun.

I am not sure whether I should install a heavier recoil spring in my
1006 or not.
scottperk is offline  
Old May 3, 2010, 10:56 AM   #11
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 4,678
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

The most power I have been able to get in 10mm is from 800X and 200 gr bullets.

I wrap a towel around the pistol to catch the empty case.
In the work up, I look at each fired case before shooting the next higher load.

The things I look for are:
1) pierced primer, stop work up and back off a safety margin for useful loads
2) case bulge from poor case support over the feed ramp. Stop the work up and back off a safety margin for a useful load.
3) hole blown in side of case. Must have missed the case bulge and kept going.
4) Case head is blown off. Must have missed the hole blown in the case and kept working up. Need to buy some pistol parts. Extractor, extractor spring, hold open, ect. Need to find a new range where not banned for blowing up a gun. Need bandages for "major face" when bits of brass come back through the ejector slot in the slide and sprayed the shooter's face. Go to the funeral of the guy hit by your extractor. You don't want to experiment at this level while holding the pistol.
5) Recoil that causes the cases to eject and land more than 5 feet from shooter. Heavier recoil springs can be installed. Some excess recoil can be tolerated with the slide slamming into the frame, but serious slide slamming is not good for the slide, frame, hand joints, or hand nerves. It can cause a flinch too.



If the case bulges, the best bet is to get a barrel with better case support. I have converted a 30-30 case to 10mm. That is too much work and does not have as much capacity. The factory 10mm brass is a better idea.

I have TIG welded up feed ramps and re cut the feed ramp and chamber in 32acp, 9x23mm, and 40sw, but is easier to just buy an aftermarket barrel with better case support.

While a stock Glock barrel may show case bulges at 10% more powder than max published, an aftermarket barrel may allow 80% extra 800X before the case bulge rears it's head.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 30-30-10mmDSCF0008.JPG (107.6 KB, 30836 views)

Last edited by Clark; May 3, 2010 at 11:01 AM.
Clark is offline  
Old May 3, 2010, 09:55 PM   #12
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
Clark

Don't give away the 800X secret.....
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old May 3, 2010, 10:39 PM   #13
riverwalker76
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2010
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 993
A word of caution .... never load a +P round in a chamber that isn't specified as being +P tolerant.

For instance. I have a S&W that states +P on the side of the barrel.

I don't care what anyone else did and got away with it. It's not their face or hand .... just my opinion.
__________________
Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”
riverwalker76 is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 07:07 AM   #14
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 11,753
I'll be the second one to say it... there exists no such thing as 10mm +P and there is no SAAMI spec (and thus NO industry standard) for anything that anyone chooses to name "10mm +P."

There is no more a "10mm +P" than there is a "FOTY CALBUR DINO-SORE KILLA."
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 07:41 AM   #15
CowTowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2007
Location: Cowtown of course!
Posts: 1,747
Quote:
there exists no such thing as 10mm +P
+1
A properly loaded 10mm round is plenty powerful enough.
I use the Blue Dot recipe for the 180gr bullet in the OP.
It gets attention at the range and it's very accurate from my full size Witness Super Sight.
I'm sure it will work equally as well with my hopefully soon to be delivered Vltor Bren Ten.
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor
“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......” President John F. Kennedy
CowTowner is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 08:20 AM   #16
scottperk
Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2010
Posts: 75
Looks like a minus 1, minus 2, and minus 3 called for. Of course
there is a +P and also a +P+. If you didnt know what one was
how would you know that there isnt one :-) ha ha.

Just because SAAMI does not define it does not mean it doesnt exist.
What about the +P+ 9mm and 38 special ammo being produced by major
ammo manufacturers ?

It is mans nature ( the younger ones anyway... without experience)
to push the limit, envelope or edge what ever you want to call it.
( experience comes from bad decisions )
We know that the powder companies have to be conservative
for liability. We know that they load to 34 and 35K psi when
the SAAMI limit is 37.5K. So those interested in taking it
to the limit and maybe a little more if we know we have
stout platforms to play with are welcome to positively
tag along and participate. Have all the naysayers never
driven faster than the speed limit ?

The objective here is to not be stupid about it. But to do
the research and logically attempt to achieve the objectives.
Isn't that what the professional ballisticians do ? Cant we
try to be amateur ballisticians ?

Here we are 20 years past origination of this cartridge and
we are doing nothing more than rehashing what had already
gone on for 20 years but simply been badly documented because
of our poor and haphazard use of technology.

And please, to those that say it isnt necessary. No guns
are necessary. We could use sharp sticks if we wanted
and 10mm as a focal point in this instance is well below
the highest levels of power in handguns. Ever notice how
everyone defends their choice against all smaller calibers
as them being not enough and all larger calibers as being
too much? It works that way from .32 caliber all the way
up to 500 S&W magnum. The .32 guys snicker at the .25
and 22 guys dont they?
scottperk is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 08:24 AM   #17
scottperk
Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2010
Posts: 75
About that Case Bulge photo. I have another photo and the bulge
is much closer to the head of the case that came from a Glock.
Could it be possible that that case was fired out of battery ?

I cant imagine that the ramp would extend that far into the chamber.

Can we get some more details please ?

For what it is worth, I understand that the EAA 10mm pistols
have fully ramped and supported barrels.
scottperk is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 08:58 AM   #18
freakshow10mm
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 1,398
Quote:
Just because SAAMI does not define it does not mean it doesnt exist.
Doesn't exist as a standard recognized pressure by the entire industry. That's what we mean by "doesn't exist".

Quote:
What about the +P+ 9mm and 38 special ammo being produced by major
ammo manufacturers ?
The 9mm is fine because the +P+ is the CIP spec pressure in Europe. That being said I'd never personally fire any +P or +P+ marked stuff in any of my guns. If you need that much more, move up a cartridge where you get more bullet weight per velocity. I will take a standard .40 S&W load over any 9mm +P+ load any day of the week.
freakshow10mm is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 09:00 AM   #19
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,367
"Just because SAAMI does not define it does not mean it doesnt exist."

Sounds like a good justification for stuffing a case full of Det Cord and seeing what kind of velocity you can get...
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 09:56 AM   #20
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,076
Quote:
A word of caution .... never load a +P round in a chamber that isn't specified as being +P tolerant.
I don't even know how to respond to this other than a 38 +p would be fine in a 357 mag without being "specified".

Quote:
Sounds like a good justification for stuffing a case full of Det Cord and seeing what kind of velocity you can get...
That would be +P+

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition

In the United States, standards related to arms and ammunition are maintained and published by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI), which publishes standard internal pressures of calibers, formerly measured in copper units of pressure and currently in psi based on piezoelectric instrumentation. Official +P pressures are established by the SAAMI for certain cartridges; in general the +P pressure is approximately 10% higher than the standard pressure. SAAMI does not have a +P+ pressure standard, but this indicates a pressure higher than the +P loading. In both cases this is below the pressure of proof test cartridge, which all firearms are required to withstand before they may be sold. Proof pressure are established by the SAAMI, as a percentage of the working pressure, so this places an upper bound on the +P+ pressures of 30–40%.
jmorris is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 10:21 AM   #21
riverwalker76
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2010
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 993
Quote:
We know that the powder companies have to be conservative
for liability. We know that they load to 34 and 35K psi when
the SAAMI limit is 37.5K. So those interested in taking it
to the limit and maybe a little more if we know we have
stout platforms to play with are welcome to positively
tag along and participate. Have all the naysayers never
driven faster than the speed limit ?

OK. Tell yourself whatever you have to in order to make yourself feel better.

Me ... I'm not firing ANY +P ammo through any firearm because the regular load is plenty for doing anything I want it to. It's your hand/eyes/ears/face ... so you can do what you want.

That being said ....

I don't know of any responsible reloader or shooter who would blatantly try and convince himself to do something stupid. Isn't that what you are wanting to hear? For us to tell you it's ok? Well .... it's NOT ok. Sorry. You're not getting my approval.
__________________
Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”
riverwalker76 is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 10:27 AM   #22
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
I say again....

The "data" in the OP can not be lumped into some sort of "10mm +p" category.

In fact, much of it can not be classified at all, since particular bullet and COL numbers are missing. As such, some of those loads would produce pressure that are FAR beyond anything that could called "+p" or even "+p+" or pressure that are only 80-90% of SAAMI standards, depending entirely on COL and the exact bullet.

Some of the loads that do list particulars range from barely 75% of SAAMI max to well over SAAMI max.

Without exact load data, that list is meaningless at best and dangerous at worst.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 10:59 AM   #23
mapsjanhere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 2,832
Quote:
Sounds like a good justification for stuffing a case full of Det Cord and seeing what kind of velocity you can get...
Highly variable, depends on which part of the gun goes through the chrono first.
__________________
I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.
mapsjanhere is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 11:10 AM   #24
riverwalker76
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2010
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 993
I'm beginning to wonder if this guy isn't just trolling. I mean .... seriously ... I don't know of any reloader who would even consider information like this.


__________________
Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”
riverwalker76 is offline  
Old May 4, 2010, 01:03 PM   #25
troy_mclure
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
Posts: 2,716
Quote:
Sounds like a good justification for stuffing a case full of Det Cord and seeing what kind of velocity you can get...

did the math on this while in the army.

if you topped off a .308 case the charge would be ALMOST equivalent to a us frag grenade.
__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
troy_mclure is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11894 seconds with 11 queries