Using Trail Boss Powder

[The Bolt Man]

I have been using Trail Boss Powder for two years. I find it meters very well in my old Herters powder measure with .1 of a grain or less variation if I do my part and maintain a consistent throw with the measure.

I like this powder. It is intended for reduced power loads in large cartridge cases using cast bullets. I have fired over 500 rounds of cast without cleaning my Ruger Bisley and there is no leading.

I have shot close to a 1000 rounds with several hundred of that being test loads. Most of my use of Trail Boss in a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk 45 Colt, the remainder in a Ruger 44 Magnum and a few in my 357 magnum. In each of these handguns, I have found the lower powder charges to be the most accurate.

These loads have very light recoil and low velocities. Great for a lot of the Cowboy Action Shooting events, 50 to 75 foot target shooting and just plain fun plinking. Still accurate at 50 yards but pretty slow. Both my Bisley and my friends Blackhawk 45 Colts prefer 4.5gr. to 6.0gr. of Trail Boss. As powder charges go above 6.0 grains, the accuracy in our guns starts to fall off. If heavy high velocity loads are desired with cast or jacketed bullets, this is not the powder to use. Then Unique becomes a popular powder.

[Slamfire]

Thanks for the facts. What sort of velocities are you talking about when you are at the 6.0 grain load?

I shoot a lot of Unique in the 45 LC, most between 800 and 850 fps, which is not heavy in my book. But when I mentioned those velocities on the SAS forum, you would have thought I was loading magnums!

[Conservadude]

I'm about to start using it in a .500 S&W magnum, and can't remember the load (it's in the 2007 Hodgdon's Annual Manual on Reloading if you're curious) but will be loading it to around 1000-1100 fps. Sounds perfect for practice rounds and you don't have the double/triple charge risk that you have with other powders. Hopefully we'll find out how good it is by this weekend ...I'm waiting on my taper crimp die to show up so I can properly crimp those electroplated Rainier bullets that I've got.

Brian

[RDF]

I have used it for cowboy shooting with 158gr lead .38 special. I gave some reloads to my sister to shoot in her stubby .38, very little recoil.

[jhansman]

I'm shooting TB this weekend in a silhouette match with my Marlin 1894CB. 357mag. I love the smell of ammonia in the morning. It smells like victory.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I was told by Hodgdon not to use TB with any jacketed bullets. I was told it could result in pressure spikes. This was by the guy who did the testing on it (or so he told me). Any thoughts?

[Conservadude]

You should probably go needle that Hodgdon guy for a little more information. He's probably assuming a moderately heavy roll crimp into the cannelure of a jacketed bullet. Ask him about tapered crimps on other 'jacketed' bullets such as with electroplated swaged-lead bullets (Rainier, Berry). And the term "spike" implies a short duration tall pressure spike ...not the same thing as just "higher peak pressure" at all since spikes tend to be more damaging. AFAIK, Trail Boss isn't known for being 'spikey'.

Example: (Electroplated lead) Rainier Bullets, BTW, states that you should use any load that you have for a lead bullet, but reduce it by 10% and work it back up. Standard rule for changing any main component in a load to something else. In the 2007 HODGDON Annual Manual on Reloading, there's an article there on using Trail Boss and it gives several loads for different cartridges, all using lead bullets. According to Rainier's FAQ, I should be able to use any of those loads, a 'slight taper crimp', and be just fine as long as I reduce the load by 10% and work my way up ...but in this case, the loads in the HODGDON Annual Manual develop pressures that are less than 50% of the SAAMI specs since these are for spitball loads (plinking, cowboy action, metal sil. etc) so there's no need to worry and no need to work the load up ...just chrony it and work it up/down to meet your fps requirements, i.e. shooting metal targets generally limits you to 1200 fps.

So ...the Hodgdon rep's answer was a bit lacking and if you have need to do a particular thing, I'd ask him again about it. Ask him if he meant "spikes" or "higher pressure than expected" ...in which case, you then ask "Can't I just find a Trail Boss load for lead, reduce it by 10% and work it back up with the jacketed bullet?" Then ask "Does it depend on how full the case is? What's optimal?"

Brian

[long rider]

Trail Boss, i like tb good powder for target busting.
I like it for my 58 remmy conversion with 250grn rn
it shoots good, plus it fills them big shells up, and its
very clean.

Sod Buster Tried To Pull On Willson.

[The Lovemaster]

Took me a while, but I frickin' found it '

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

From IMR's loading page:

"Trail Boss is designed specifically for low velocity lead bullet loads suitable for Cowboy Action shooting. It is primarily a pistol powder, but has some application in rifle. It is based on a whole new technology which allows very high loading density, good flow through powder measures, stability in severe temperature variation and most importantly, additional safety to the handloader."

All of the loading data on IMR's site is for lead bullets; no jacketed bullets are listed.

[Mike Irwin]

IMR/Hodgdon does NOT recommend Trail Boss for use with jacketed bullets.

As mentioned, pressure excursions have resulted (regardless of crimp style). I've heard from two sources that I respect that these pressure excursions, even with moderate loads, can be EXTREMELY violent, to the point where the gun can be damaged badly.

I exchanged e-mail with someone at IMR a few months ago about this very subject and he was very direct -- their testing revealed problems with jacketed bullets and they will NOT be providing any jacketed bullet loads in the forseeable future.

This is very similar to some of the old bulk smokeless powders that were available prior to World War II. Few of them had any loading data for jacketed bullets for the exact same reasons.

I've been saying for a long time that I really don't think that Trail Boss is as "new and revolutionary" as people are claiming it to be...

I truly think that it's a reworking of one of the old Du Pont bulk smokeless powder formulas.


If you want to mess with it and try to take it into the jacketed bullet loading realm, do so very very carefully and fully at your own risk. I, personally, am not going to risk one of my guns.

[The Bolt Man]

SlamFire1

Velocities run from close to 650fps to 750fps with 4.5gr. to 5.5gr. charges depending on the bullet weight.

I have been loading cast bullets from 185gr. SWC to 255gr. RNFP. They all shoot very accurately in my Ruger Bisley 45 Colt. These loads are very light and pleasant to shoot. I am not a magnum load kind of person when it comes to shooting for fun. I own some magnums and shoot the wrist breaking loads a couple of times a year just to see if I can still do it without having to get my thumb relocated back to my hand where it belongs.

Most of my shooting is paper punching, knocking down things or breaking things and these puppy loads work fine for that purpose. I have always been an accuracy nut and with the Trail boss powder, that seems to favor the lighter loads.

[Conservadude]

Just to set the record straight about Trail Boss versus jacketed bullets. I just got off the phone with IMR/Hodgdon and asked a bunch of pointed questions. Here are their responses:

- Trail Boss is *NOT* dangerous to use with jacketed bullets. They claim that you will get inconsistent velocities if you do and that there is *NO* risk of spikes in pressure.

- Load maximum is the full case volume *without any powder compression* in my 500 S&W.

- It is A-OK to use Trail Boss with plated or lead bullets, and they recommend a good crimp so that the bullet doesn't let go before full pressure (for the load) is reached.

- The statements about pressure spikes are lies (his words, not mine).

Brian

[Mike Irwin]

"Trail Boss is *NOT* dangerous to use with jacketed bullets. They claim that you will get inconsistent velocities if you do and that there is *NO* risk of spikes in pressure."

I got that from the IMR people, as well.

But as I said, two separate people whose skills and experience in the firearms field I greatly admire have said that they HAVE had measurable, and significant, pressure spikes with Trail Boss when shooting jacketed bullets.

I know at least one of those individuals has been in contact with IMR about this subject.

What IMR does, or wants to do, with their information on this subject is up to them, but I'm going to err on the side of not having potential pressure spikes and stick with lead bullets.

It's also not going to stop me from using, and recommending, Trail Boss. It's literally a dream come true for those of us who shoot the old, large volume cartridges.

[Conservadude]

A possible clue might be the fact that the IMR guy strongly emphasized several times over that you must not compress the powder. He told me that the maximum load in my 500 S&W cartridges was "the most that you can fit in without compressing the powder" and he repeated the "without compressing the powder" part of it. It may also be possible that if someone used a drop tube AND followed the rule that the max load was 'all available space' then they may be producing a load that's more compressed than they recommend. Maybe the one or two accounts of pressure spike experiences did something that accidentally (or on purpose) compressed the powder? And for the guy doing the muzzle loader testing as well ...and in light of the warning to not compress the powder, I don't think it's a good idea to use Trail Boss in a muzzle loader. For now, I used my Titegroup powder but I'll build a stack of Trail Boss plinkers next...

Just a little more info ...

Brian

[Mike Irwin]

"Maybe the one or two accounts of pressure spike experiences did something that accidentally (or on purpose) compressed the powder?"

Interesting theory. I'm going to look into it, as it might well explain what's going on.

[under_dawg]

I have loaded about 500 357/158 gr lrnfp lasercast. It seems to be great for plinking and target shooting. Very clean in my stainless gp-100. I was having some difficulty with my Lee Pro Auto Disc, but realized as long as I keep the hopper at least 3/4 full, it throws very consitantly. I was checking every throw for a while until I came to that realization. Now I check every 5 or 6.

[marsofold]

I load Trail Boss powder for my Ruger SRH 454 Casull. A 255 Grain LSWC bullet over 9.3 grains of Trail Boss works well for me. Calculated velocity of around 1025fps (don't have a chronograph). My only complaint about the powder is that the brass becomes extremely discolored, probably from incomplete sealing of the case to the cylinder walls from the low pressure. And it is so light and fluffy that I use a Lee powder dipper so as to not worry about irregular load weights. But overall, I like it...

[Peter M. Eick]

I have talked to the IMR tech about it and read a similar story on Taffin's site that the problem is definitely compression. If you compress the donuts and break them, then they powder burns very quickly and this "MAY" cause pressure spikes.

Having loaded above book max with TB, I will continue to do so, but much more carefully now.

TB is a great powder that does a specific thing, push lead bullets in big cases at safe speeds. For 38 specials and 357 mag plinking loads, I love it.

Just don't confuse TB with 2400 and try and make it into a magnum load.

Also if you are interested call IMR and talk to them. If you can get them to open up a bit you should hear the same story. "Don't compress TB!"

ps:

Let me know if you hear differently!

[tomh1426]

I have some 158 grain Berrys plated bullets and a can of TB but cant find any .357 TB loads.
Id like to try it out, what are some loads you guys tried??

[long rider]

Ok loads for 38spl 357mag.
Loads for 38spl,
158gr lswc. start load, 2.7grns tb.
Max load,4.2.

Loads for 357 mag.
Start load. 158grn swc,3.2grns tb.
Max load,158 grn swc,4.2grns tb.
These are cowboy loads.
Sod Buster Tried To Pull On Willson.

[long rider]

You can send for a free reloaders guide at
www.imrpowder.com.
I sent for a reloaders guide i got it in four
days. It gives you all the info you will need
for loading trail boss.

Sod Buster Tried To Pull On Willson.

[tomh1426]

Thanks, I got some brass and Its raining out so that should keep me busy for a while.

[rclark]

My only complaint about the powder is that the brass becomes extremely discolored

I noticed this too with .45 Colt. I am using 6g of TB and still get plenty of blow by. This wasn't a problem with 8g of Unique!

I use the 6g of TB for the 255g bullet FNRP. Very pleasant (whimpy?) compared to 8g grains of Unique or 19g of 2400.... But I like it for the target shooting.

Velocities run from close to 650fps to 750fps with 4.5gr. to 5.5gr.

I can 'infer' that with 6g, the bullet 'may' be traveling around 800fps???? I am using 5 1/2" barrel six-shooters.... Any chrono data to confirm?

PS. I know this is an order thread, but thought it best to keep 'all in one place' about Trail Boss.

[Bones507]

I use trail boss also and i get the discoloration also, blowback they say. But its a nice powder as i dont like wrist buster loads anyway. 6.0 grs under a 200 gr lead slug gives GREAT accuracy and im not that great a shot. 5,5 under a 250 gr slug is all right also but not as good as the other load.

[zxcvbob]

My only complaint about the powder is that the brass becomes extremely discolored

What brand of brass are you using? Starline? Try switching to something thinner, like R-P or Winchester and see if that helps.