Who here fights ?

[fadingbreed]

Agree 100% Krept and SamH. You know during the 60s and 70s there seemed to be an air of mystery or sense of invicibility attached to those who studied martial arts such as Karate and Kung Fu. I was somewhat like that as a teenager during the 70s but something did not quite register right. I was in alot of "street" fights then and knew that one on one that most of the fights ended up on the ground but not all. Thank God for wrestling knowledge for me back then. I was convinced back then that one must have some skill in another facet of fighting. I studied American Style Karate back then. Later I studied both Judo and Okinawan Kempo Karate from which I received my 1st Dan. When the Ultimate Fighting Championships first started airing, I knew that the proof was in the pudding. My wife was certain that only stand up strikers would prevail and that I was off of my rocker. Well, she soon became a believer. If I remember correctly, did not Bruce Lee become a student of wrestling also knowing the reality of combat. Sorry for rambling but I agree mixed martial arts is the reality of today.

[handgun357]

krept and sam,
Well put.

[LASur5r]

First, I want to ask you guys this...you mean blocking punches with your face isn't a blocking technique?

Seriously, when I met Bruce Lee and he issued that challenge to Black Belts of any martial arts school to try to take him on when he opened up his L.A. school? I had already had 7 years of serious training in Shotokan, Tang Soo Do, Kempo, and jiujitsu (6 days a week, about 8 hours a day) and he completely dominated me.

Sam and Krept, I do respect both traditional and contact because that's what I searched for in my 40 some odd years of training, and each has it's value...but as you get older...immediate and direct deep hurting techniques are what works in real life...that and the attitude that you have nothing to lose.

I learned that one from Bruce....he warned me to never get in a fight with someone who has more to lose than you are.

I believe that he started into the wrestling stuff in the later '60's...I'm not sure because I was doing some more searching at the time...it was called Vietnam, Republic of...

I wonder if some of the other old timers that trained with Bruce or Danny Inosanto at that time, remembers....but he did add on stuff in the 60's and 70's.

[krept]

Good post.

I will always respect traditional martial arts, in fact, i do plan on returning to Aikido when I am ready. I truly feel that it is the most complete martial art (for me), but at this stage in my life, it is hard to dedicate myself to a "way" (as in "-do" as opposed to "-jitsu or -jutsu."

I started Aikido over ten years ago, but didn't stick with it because I was overwhelmed with it's complexity. My father started it probably 6 years ago and has acheived a black belt from a renowned instructor in the D.C. area whose name I cannot remember at this time. Needless to say, I am proud to have that to look forward to.


As far as blocking punches with your face... I'm not proud of it, but my girlfriend's father is an ex-biker that has done some hard time in the pen. One thing (the only thing) he has told me about fights in the can is that they usually start with a sucker punch, fast and furious. He said on several times a person would attempt a sucker punch to his face and he would tip his jaw into his chest and expose his forehead, kind of like a ram does when in a butting battle. he said more often than not, it resulted in a broken hand for the puncher.

I'm sure you know there is a fine line for this, however, I've seen several people try to block a knee in a thai fight, only to have it land right on their grill .

[SamH]

Hi LASur5r,

it's good to see dedicated martial artists like yourself sharing thoughts with us amateurs.

I'm a fan of traditional martial arts, but have also trained in Muay Thai. My experiences are limited, at best, and I've been in Kung Fu for only 5 years.

Blocking punches with the face? I've seen some tough-nuts blocking punches with their forehead, but not on the face.

A comment on Krept's mention of blocking the Muay Thai knee. As far as I know, it's impossible to block them without doing damage to yourself. They can be dodged or diverted - depending on the competence of the attacker, but I would like to know if there really is an effective block against it.

[LASur5r]

Sam H.,
That was a small joke...very small...
That's what happens when the opponent penetrates your defenses and nails you in the face. Instead of saying that he nailed you in the face, you say that you blocked his punch with your face....uh, well...had to be there.

Anyway, I believe this kind of forum is for the purpose of sharing knowledge and experience so that we can all learn so that we can improve ourselves.

I believe that TFL is a fine example of what could happen when a lot of people of like thinking can share their thoughts. Sometimes controversial, sometimes not, but you still need different input so that you can evaluate for yourself what choices you will make.

When I was chasing martial arts, I was lucky enough to start with jiujitsu from a hardcore, "fighting" instructor, but then I was lulled by the formal "art" schools like Shotokan, Hapkido, Tang Soo Do, just before their schools started to go tournament. Then Kempo and Tang Soo Do went into tournaments big time. I competed against folks like Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, the Urquidez brothers, etc...but when Benny went full contact I got into that line, too, mainly because of "trying" my hand against Bruce Lee...totally kicked my a$$. I reminded myself that I was in the arts for self-defense.
I started training seriously to achieve that part only, when I went to Vietnam and did a tour there. I got to use what little I had learned...I had also taught a few guys some really practical, simple stuff and that knowledge also saved their lives during their time there.
When I returned stateside, I pursued learning to do what works for me. I then started teaching after having "tried" in real street fights the techniques that I taught...but it wasn't so much the techniques, it's like Bruce taught"You learn to swim when you get in the water and swim, until then it is only practice."
I was "attacked" by three guys with guns....I was lucky in that I disarmed one, neutralized the second one, and caused the third one to run away...all without getting hurt and without a shot being fired. The Lord was good to me.
I experienced more of these experiences and have gone on to teach people the same method of learning since the 80's and many of them have successfully survived street encounters with only about 6+ months of training.

This is a long way of saying that all of you can do the same thing...just follow what Bruce advised me to do.
"Learn what is effective for you and discard all that is not useful, then practice, practice, practice( with real partners)

It's that simple, yet it is that hard. Good luck to all you fighters out there who are "practicing" to perfect their "art."

[The Observer]

Greetings to All:

When someone is young and interested in martial arts, they want to know a lot of it's kind. Someone want hard practice in martial arts for his own defensive tools. Others for the trophy in competition. Both purpose are good. In real fight, all our martial arts know-how are helpful but they are not a guarranty we are invincible. A nail cutter small knife in it could kill if someone knows how to use the same through to MA's knowledge. The same as to several kinds of martial arts, they are all good for our self defense when they are needed.

I was in a street fight last December for I was held up by two addicts, mind you I was so tired and could hardly breath after the exchanges of blows and kicks because I am not as that prowess when I was in my early 20's.

Good luck to your coming competition.

[Solitar]

Nope, never have.
That's why I pack two equalizers for use after plans A and B have failed.
C. Pepper Spray
D. Either 9mm Keltec or 45acp Ruger

plan A is avoid it in the first place - it's worked for 50 years
plan B is to BS out of it or beat feet out of there

okay, supplemental to B is the deterrance factor of a six cell mag lite.

[madgrad]

I suggest you avoid "SCARS" from what little I've seen of their techniques, they seem more Martial Arts than Many Mc Dojo's out there, despite what they claim.

If you want to learn how to fight. Checkout your local Muay Thai, Krav Maga, and Boxing gyms. They'll get you on the road quicker to fighting than any others.

Also If you want to more info on SCARS, check out yahoo clubs. They have one for SCARS. I personally consider it the best reason for avoiding SCARS...IMHO

[trapshooter]

Sorry boys, I'm too old and slow. This stuff is a young mans game. One thing I do remember, though, is what I was trained to do, when against a skilled MA opponent. Shoot them, quickly, before they hurt you.

My fighting experience was limited to the bar variety. It's hard to defend against a well-aimed bottle, chair or stool. Some people, who are very good, can operate in this environment and not get hurt too bad, but anyone can be hit. The good guys usually get hit from behind, is all.

LaSur5r, I recall that Bruce Lee did study wrestling, and boxing, and just about any form of personal combat he could dig up. He included firearms and edged weapons, and incorporated what he learned into his later technique and instruction. He did not like guns, mainly because they were impossible to defend against if used by someone who knew what they were doing (i.e., outside HTH range). This is one reason he advocated fast closing of the range, as it was the only way to combat a firearm, or leaving before shots were fired, if closing to attack was not possible. His movement in closing to attack is/was an amazing thing to see, keeping in mind that he tended to slow down for film, as full speed would not have been very 'entertaining'.

I have to admit, I admire anyone who would willingly get into a fight with him, although, on the other hand, you never get better if you always fight people you can beat. It's too bad he died so young. He was a very interesting guy, as a person, and had a great deal to say about his philosophy and art. I would have liked to see him adapt to the aging process.

[Dave3006]

LASur5r,

Where did you train in Judo? I train in Tustin with Sensei Bunasawa. I also have done Jiu Jitsu with Joe Moriera in Costa Mesa and Shotokan in El Toro.

I couldn't agree more. You need to learn several arts. Almost all the guys studying BJJ have a black belt in a striking art or are JKD students.



Dave
Mission Viejo

[Quartus]

I just got back from two months in the P.R.C. I watched a lot of TV there, and the shows are full of the mythical martial arts. They have several Chinese 'Old West' style shows - back in the glory days of the warlords. There is a lot of jumping onto a roof from the ground, or over the building. Flying ninja stuff. Or a palm heel strike to a granite column that knocks fragments off the opposite side so fast that they penetrate a wall. Or punching a granite ball (size of a bowling ball) and disintegrating it. All garbage, of course.

OTOH, they show some amazing coordination, in stuff that does not look at all fake. Like a group doing hand katas - while standing on their heads.


But then there are the modern Kung Fu bouts televised almost nightly. A little kicking, a few simple grab-him-behind-the-knees-and-power-him-down throws, and a lot of boxing.

A world of difference between the two, and it looked to me like a competent American boxer would do pretty well with those rules. (Although there was one obvious American there who did not do well. This guy looked like he has an I.Q. around 75 - just a real stoooopid look on his face at all times. Embarrassing.)

Interesting. Comments?


Here's the question, which is not related to the above: How valuable is the garden variety judo school as an introduction to MA for small children? (6-12 yrs)

[mussi]

How usefull the garden variety of judo is for smaller kids? My uncle's kids have been expelled from a school after almost killing a 'poor, disenchanted boy coming from a civil war' who tried to rob them of their lunch money at knifepoint. They broke one of his arms, and with a shoulder throw on hard concrete, broke his left femur.

So far, these two kids didn't have too many problems with folks from the Balkans.

[Dave3006]

My 9 year old loves Judo. I go to class with him. He is learning to pin and throw. I teach him finishing moves at home since they won't let him do armbars in class with the other kids. Heck, I would not want a 9 year old tweaking my sons arm. Too easy for a kid with limited maturity to screw up.

The good part is that he likes it. That is half the battle. I will see that he learns striking skills later.

Dave

[VaughnT]

Great posts so far.

Back in the day, I managed to get an orange belt in TSD, but I was a wee little tyke at the time and don't know how much I remember or could use in a fight. I do, however, watch a lot of Jackie Chan flicks and am sure I would acquit myself admirably.

Seriously, though, I have thought about getting back into the arts. My only problem is finding a place to go. Seems Greenville is seriously lacking any of the more interesting artforms. Heck, I can't even find a boxing gym.

Anyhow, I completely agree that training in multiple arts is a must. Right now, I'm training in .45 and .38.

[krept]

Glad to see this thread back up here!

Judo should be great for children. One thing, it can help establish a sense of respect in them as many of the traditional martial arts go.

Secondly, how many times have you tripped or fell? Judo, as with Aikido and many other of the throwing or projecting martial arts helps people deal with the concept of falling (and therefore balance) much much better.

A fella I knew was in his 50's, black belt in Aikido. He was fixing shingles on his roof when he fell... thankfully he did a perfect breakfall and escaped with minor injuries (and a soiled pair of undies).

Vaughn, you might want to check out the local college for martial arts classes? Other times at gyms and such, you might be able to find someone interested in MA that can help you train. If you check out mixedmartialarts.com, you might very well find places to train at or people to train with in your area.

Good luck!

[Quartus]

Here's the question, which is not related to the above: How valuable is the garden variety judo school as an introduction to MA for small children? (6-12 yrs)

Anybody else gonna take a whack at my question?

I wuz kinna hopin some of the more knowledgeable here would weigh in on this...

[ATeaM]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Here's the question, which is not related to the above: How valuable is the garden variety judo school as an introduction to MA for small children? (6-12 yrs)"

Excellent. Judo was originally developed for students in Japan, incorporating techniques that are well suited for a child. I did Karate and Tae Kwan Do from 9 to 11, never really like either. The techniques and katas are too complicated for children to be truly effective. Judo is perfect, it's simple, the focus is on maintaining balance and using your opponents force against himself. When you see young kids fighting it almost always ends up in holds and postures where Judo would be effective. Your child is less likely to be injured during Judo and the focus on balance will not only help in other sports (wrestling, football especially), but would be great if he decided to move onto another art.

[Quartus]

Thanks, AteaM!

Any pointers on choosing a school? My goal would be to start them on a road of fitness, both simple physical fitness and fitness for self defense.

[Dave3006]

I have a black belt in Shotokan. I originally started my son in Karate because of the love I have for it. I quickly learned that this very formal, disciplined art is not for kids both mentally and physically. Their minds and bodies are not capable at the age of 8-10 of learning this art. It is just too much.

My son loves Judo and is doing well. Believe it or not, all the Japanese rigid formal discipline in Shotokan is not a requirement to be a good fighter. It is good to be disciplined. But, it does not necessarily equal good fighting. I remember all the seriousness of Karate and laugh now. Yelling kiai, single punches to downed opponents, ect.. Almost all the blue belts in my BJJ class would wipe the floor up with the Karate guys.

[Halffast]

Here's the question, which is not related to the above: How valuable is the garden variety judo school as an introduction to MA for small children? (6-12 yrs)

Captain,

Here is my $.02. I would say that more important than the style you pick is the schools philosophy in how and what they teach the kids. Some schools use MA to teach disipline, respect, and self-confidence. Others, as Dave pointed out, only teach the art and may not be good for smaller children. I would look for a school that is not rigidly traditional and ask what their goals for the kids are. Visit at least three schools, watch a class or two, and ask lots of questions. If the instructor won't let you watch, or doesn't like you asking a bunch of questions, it's probably not the place you want to take your kids. Hope this helps.

David

[Quartus]

Dave, I looked into a school for myself a few years back. The instructor seemed to have impressive credentials, but wouldn't let me watch a class. I didn't like that, so I left.

Few months later, the school folded. I think there's a connection.



Thanks for the tips, all!

[ATeaM]

"Any pointers on choosing a school?"

There's a really good check list about selecting a general martial arts school, but I don't know the website off hand. Hmm, Things to check for

First, make an appointment with the school during the time they have their children's class or peak hour. Make sure you see the head instructor personally. How the head instructor conducts himself is key to determining the quality of the school. Was he on time ? Courteous ? Professional ? Did he seem to be rushing you in to buy uniforms or sign some lengthy contract ? Was he genuinely interested in your child or unconcerned ?

After that, check out the facility, is it clean ? Are there many student's your childs age training ? Do they seem focused and interested or are they goofing off ? Do they have some shmoe teaching the children's class or a qualified instructor ?

Belts, trophies and other bogus stuff are just there to impress. Ignore them. You want a school where they are genuinely interested in your child and are not just putting him/her through the paces in a half assed fashion. At the end of your visist, talk to some of the other parents, find out how long they've been going there and if they have tried any other schools. Also, find out the Judo association for your state and see if they are certified. Certification isn't so important, but it's kind of like dealing with the BBB, you'll find out if they have any black marks on their record.

The flip side of no dedication from the instructors is an overbearing instructor who screams and gets mad at the kids. Your child should be having fun while he learns, any school that goes overboard with the discipline should be avoided. You should be able to determine that level for yourself just by watching.

[Quartus]

Sounds like good info. Thanks very much.


This is what I love about TFL!

[Mannlicher]

I'm a lover, not a fighter. lol