2 Antique Handguns - Help ID!

zeteibao · October 14, 2014, 11:50 PM

2 antique handguns, percussion cap I think, and I'm looking for help to identify the maker, origin and value of both.

Photos: http://imgur.com/a/8nCBh (click on the photos to enlarge).

Thank you

zeteibao · October 14, 2014, 11:52 PM

The first one has a maker's mark in 2 different places as you can see in the photos (click to enlarge in the photos) !

Jim Watson · October 15, 2014, 12:39 AM

I think the first one is a pinfire breechloader. Condition is poor, value low.

The second one is a percussion muzzleloader of the style known in South America as a Garrucha, but widely distributed elsewhere. Common and of low value.

Mk VII · October 15, 2014, 04:07 PM

My late father had a gun very similar to the first. Pop-out triggers, Belgian proof marks, crude metallurgy.

James K · October 15, 2014, 06:52 PM

I think they are both Garruchas, which were made in different systems as time went on. Still the same idea; two-shot pistols made for the natives who were forbidden to own revolvers or auto pistols. Some were made in Belgium and Spain, but most in Brazil, which was the major market.

The value is pretty much in the novelty class, maybe $40 or so. I don't recommend attempting to fire either gun, even if pinfire ammo were available.

Jim

RJay · October 15, 2014, 07:07 PM

I believe both are of South American origin. Very low cost when new, and time has not been gentle with them. Made for use by the poor farmers and merchants' who could not afford anything else but yet need something for protection against the many ( and still that way ) bandit's who inhibited the country side. These guns are still being made ( and at one time imported by Rossi ) in .22 and other low pressure calibers.

Jeffrey1971 · October 16, 2014, 03:14 AM

One also sees a ton of cheap pistols like this in France. Since they're classified as Category 8, they're widely available - just have to be 18. They turn up in flea markets, with examples like those shown in the 50 dollar range, better quality guns can get pricey quickly! Some samples can be found here: http://www.naturabuy.fr/Pistolets-Broches-cat-1067.html

Same basic principal though, inexpensive firearms for self defence.

As an interesting note, pinfire ammo is not that hard to find here. Either original (usually about a buck a round, sometimes a lot less) or in load-your-own form that works using reloadable brass with a striker pin that fires a blank primer to set off the charge. These are actually pretty cool, can be easily loaded for casual plinking, and bring your per shot cost down to about 25 cents or less. A neat way to keep the old guns shooting. I've shot a few of the cheap double-barrel pinfires like the one shown, and accuracy is terrible.

zeteibao · October 16, 2014, 11:06 AM

Is this 50€ to you? http://www.naturabuy.fr/PISTOLET-DOU...m-2006044.html and its really similar to mine!

Jeffrey1971 · October 16, 2014, 12:20 PM

I hope I'm misreading your tone. I seem to recall saying that "better examples can get pricey quickly!"

Well... I could argue that the quality and condition do not appear to be in the
same realm. I could also argue that a "buy it now" option, like on many auction sites, is rarely a reflection of selling point except when the seller stumbles on an impulse buyer. Check the vintage surfboards on e-bay that are still there after a couple of years of constant appearances if you'd like a hint of this phenomenon.

The link was given simply to check out the availability and range of these types of pistols in France. Some neat stuff on there. I used to be amazed by the variety of pinfires around, some of them in the 12mm range... some of which I'd have hesitated to fire new and some that seem like quality guns.

Scroll a bit further and you'll find a wide range of prices. Spend some time walking around the brocantes and vide-greniers, and you'll find some nicely rusted pieces with chipped grips at around fifty. Or don't.

Jeffrey1971 · October 16, 2014, 12:48 PM

Long day.
Enjoy your pistol for what it is. I always kind of liked these types as a curiosity.

James K · October 16, 2014, 07:32 PM

Those French prices are astonishing. €280 and €590 are $358 and $755, respectively. Quite a lot of money for guns that would not, I think, bring anywhere near that in the U.S.

Jim

zeteibao · October 16, 2014, 09:10 PM

Sorry if my tone sounded that bad, writting is always more difficult then talking

It was just a matter of currency, dolars to euros

sorry! and thanks for your help guys

Jeffrey1971 · October 17, 2014, 03:34 AM

No worries, of couse. Like I said, a long day on my end as well!

James, some of the prices are crazy indeed.

Others not so bad. It's pretty easy to pick a decent pinfire for 150 or so - I have no idea how that compares to the States at present. I used to see early pinfires showing up as "probably Confederate used" or some such thing, at really high prices, but I haven't checked in years.

There are some wild firearms floating around France. Most anything modern and C and R is regulated, but in the countryside after a couple of world wars, one stumbles of course upon some keepsakes and pick-ups that remain under the radar.

I always enjoy the forum, gentlemen, so thanks!

bedbugbilly · October 17, 2014, 08:21 AM

I have one identical to the first one you show - have had it probably close to 50 years. It's a French double barrel "pin-fire". Pull the hammer back and the trigger pops out (one for each hammer). Mine is stored away but if I remember right, it is about a 36-38 caliber or there abouts. These were inexpensive pistols at the time but the wood grips on mine is actually a very nice piece of French Walnut and very well made. An interesting "curio"!

October 14, 2014, 11:50 PM	#1
zeteibao Junior Member Join Date: October 9, 2014 Posts: 6	2 Antique Handguns - Help ID! 2 antique handguns, percussion cap I think, and I'm looking for help to identify the maker, origin and value of both. Photos: http://imgur.com/a/8nCBh (click on the photos to enlarge). Thank you

October 15, 2014, 07:07 PM	#6
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	I believe both are of South American origin. Very low cost when new, and time has not been gentle with them. Made for use by the poor farmers and merchants' who could not afford anything else but yet need something for protection against the many ( and still that way ) bandit's who inhibited the country side. These guns are still being made ( and at one time imported by Rossi ) in .22 and other low pressure calibers. __________________ Ron James Last edited by RJay; October 15, 2014 at 07:15 PM.

October 17, 2014, 08:21 AM	#14
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I have one identical to the first one you show - have had it probably close to 50 years. It's a French double barrel "pin-fire". Pull the hammer back and the trigger pops out (one for each hammer). Mine is stored away but if I remember right, it is about a 36-38 caliber or there abouts. These were inexpensive pistols at the time but the wood grips on mine is actually a very nice piece of French Walnut and very well made. An interesting "curio"! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

October 14, 2014, 11:52 PM	#2
zeteibao Junior Member Join Date: October 9, 2014 Posts: 6	The first one has a maker's mark in 2 different places as you can see in the photos (click to enlarge in the photos) !

October 15, 2014, 12:39 AM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I think the first one is a pinfire breechloader. Condition is poor, value low. The second one is a percussion muzzleloader of the style known in South America as a Garrucha, but widely distributed elsewhere. Common and of low value.

October 15, 2014, 04:07 PM	#4
Mk VII Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2000 Location: England Posts: 455	My late father had a gun very similar to the first. Pop-out triggers, Belgian proof marks, crude metallurgy.

October 15, 2014, 06:52 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I think they are both Garruchas, which were made in different systems as time went on. Still the same idea; two-shot pistols made for the natives who were forbidden to own revolvers or auto pistols. Some were made in Belgium and Spain, but most in Brazil, which was the major market. The value is pretty much in the novelty class, maybe $40 or so. I don't recommend attempting to fire either gun, even if pinfire ammo were available. Jim

October 16, 2014, 03:14 AM	#7
Jeffrey1971 Junior Member Join Date: March 26, 2012 Location: Bordeaux, France Posts: 9	One also sees a ton of cheap pistols like this in France. Since they're classified as Category 8, they're widely available - just have to be 18. They turn up in flea markets, with examples like those shown in the 50 dollar range, better quality guns can get pricey quickly! Some samples can be found here: http://www.naturabuy.fr/Pistolets-Broches-cat-1067.html Same basic principal though, inexpensive firearms for self defence. As an interesting note, pinfire ammo is not that hard to find here. Either original (usually about a buck a round, sometimes a lot less) or in load-your-own form that works using reloadable brass with a striker pin that fires a blank primer to set off the charge. These are actually pretty cool, can be easily loaded for casual plinking, and bring your per shot cost down to about 25 cents or less. A neat way to keep the old guns shooting. I've shot a few of the cheap double-barrel pinfires like the one shown, and accuracy is terrible.

October 16, 2014, 11:06 AM	#8
zeteibao Junior Member Join Date: October 9, 2014 Posts: 6	Is this 50€ to you? http://www.naturabuy.fr/PISTOLET-DOU...m-2006044.html and its really similar to mine!

October 16, 2014, 12:20 PM	#9
Jeffrey1971 Junior Member Join Date: March 26, 2012 Location: Bordeaux, France Posts: 9	I hope I'm misreading your tone. I seem to recall saying that "better examples can get pricey quickly!" Well... I could argue that the quality and condition do not appear to be in the same realm. I could also argue that a "buy it now" option, like on many auction sites, is rarely a reflection of selling point except when the seller stumbles on an impulse buyer. Check the vintage surfboards on e-bay that are still there after a couple of years of constant appearances if you'd like a hint of this phenomenon. The link was given simply to check out the availability and range of these types of pistols in France. Some neat stuff on there. I used to be amazed by the variety of pinfires around, some of them in the 12mm range... some of which I'd have hesitated to fire new and some that seem like quality guns. Scroll a bit further and you'll find a wide range of prices. Spend some time walking around the brocantes and vide-greniers, and you'll find some nicely rusted pieces with chipped grips at around fifty. Or don't.

October 16, 2014, 12:48 PM	#10
Jeffrey1971 Junior Member Join Date: March 26, 2012 Location: Bordeaux, France Posts: 9	Long day. Enjoy your pistol for what it is. I always kind of liked these types as a curiosity.

October 16, 2014, 07:32 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Those French prices are astonishing. €280 and €590 are $358 and $755, respectively. Quite a lot of money for guns that would not, I think, bring anywhere near that in the U.S. Jim

October 16, 2014, 09:10 PM	#12
zeteibao Junior Member Join Date: October 9, 2014 Posts: 6	Sorry if my tone sounded that bad, writting is always more difficult then talking It was just a matter of currency, dolars to euros sorry! and thanks for your help guys

October 17, 2014, 03:34 AM	#13
Jeffrey1971 Junior Member Join Date: March 26, 2012 Location: Bordeaux, France Posts: 9	No worries, of couse. Like I said, a long day on my end as well! James, some of the prices are crazy indeed. Others not so bad. It's pretty easy to pick a decent pinfire for 150 or so - I have no idea how that compares to the States at present. I used to see early pinfires showing up as "probably Confederate used" or some such thing, at really high prices, but I haven't checked in years. There are some wild firearms floating around France. Most anything modern and C and R is regulated, but in the countryside after a couple of world wars, one stumbles of course upon some keepsakes and pick-ups that remain under the radar. I always enjoy the forum, gentlemen, so thanks!