New Cartridge 357 Ring Of Fire

Davelliott · August 16, 2015, 03:46 PM

Hi folks,
I am developing a new cartridge called the 357 Ring Of Fire.
It delivers the power of a 357 magnum in a semi automatic rimless cartridge with 140, 158 and 170 grain. 357 bullets. It is a conversion designed for 1911, large framed glocks and of course all doublestack 1911 platforms.
This conversion gives you the magazine capacity of a 9mm, but also the power of a 357 magnum medium and heavy bullets.
I have videos on youtube for this 357 Ring Of Fire new cartridge showing progress and developments with a converted Glock 29 sub compact pistol.
Check it out, spread the word if you like the concept
Thanks!
Dave

stagpanther · August 16, 2015, 03:50 PM

Sounds cool--a real "man in black" gun. ; )

Davelliott · August 16, 2015, 03:55 PM

Thank you!
I have breached 1188 fps with 170 FMJ with this short barreled beauty...with more to come.

stagpanther · August 16, 2015, 04:01 PM

so what is it--a 10mm necked down to 357?

DA/SA Fan · August 16, 2015, 04:29 PM

What are the dimensions of the brass, and how are you making it?

How about a conversion for Tanfoglios while you're at it? I assume the cartridge would fit in a .38 super magazine?

Sharkbite · August 16, 2015, 04:34 PM

Dave,
Can you list bullet weights with velocities obtained.
What is the case based on?
Any pics?

Uncle Malice · August 16, 2015, 04:41 PM

Interesting. Is this like a 357Sig in a larger case?? I'm picturing a necked down 10mm?

What is the purpose or benefit vs a 10mm? The 357 sig was nice because it gives more power than a 9mm +P... providing ALMOST 357mag performance in a normal sized autoloader. If you have to step up to the large frame, 45cp/10mm guns for this loading, I don't see it taking off.

Davelliott · August 16, 2015, 04:45 PM

It is not a necked down ctg.
I do not own a tangfilio to test...but the frame needs to be substantial.
No 9mm or 40 s&w limited frame can safely withstand the pressures required for this ctg.
The military has found the Baretta M92 can't even withstand the 9mm and want to replace all of them.
The 357 ROF is more powerful than 38 super, 9x23 etc... and requires a sturdy frame.
The Tangfolio may be strong enough, but I have not researched nor tested.
If you would like to send one, and buy the conversion unit, I would be happy to test for safety and function.
The 38 super magazines may work, but I have not tested those yet.
This work only begun in late June and is limited to time and money for tests at this time...I hope this will change soon!

BillM · August 16, 2015, 04:49 PM

Interesting concept.

If you are going straight wall, how is it better than 38 super or 9x23?

If it's a bottleneck---what's the advantage over 9x25 Dillon?
(That's a 10mm necked down to 9mm)

Evidently you see a niche that need filled, similar to the 460 Rowland
or 50 GI.?

Davelliott · August 16, 2015, 05:06 PM

I have breached 1188 fps with the 170 FMJ's.
I am still testing 158's. So far they have only breached 1268 or so.
These are not necked down ctgs. These give you 12 rounds in a 10mm magazine and 17-18 rounds in a 15 round 10mm magazine.
These velocities are all from a Glock 29 conversion...sub compact and short barrel.
This ctg. gives the performance of a 357 magnum revolver with high capacity and fast reloads like any other semi automatic pistol.
Please take a moment to look at the youtube videos for the 357 Ring Of Fire...they may answer some questions you have.
I would like to sell this concept to a manufacturer, so I will refrain from total disclosure at this time, but if you will, email or call your favorite gunmaker and ask for this cartridge. They know about it, but seem to be waiting for demand.

DA/SA Fan · August 16, 2015, 05:08 PM

If I didn't just use my gun allowance I might actually have taken you up on that. I'd bet that the Tanfos are strong enough and there are already some pretty good recoil reduction goodies available for them. If you don't get around to testing on one by the time I'm ready for another handgun I just might be contacting you. I have always had a .38 super converted to 9x23 as a CC in the back of my mind. I guess it all depends on the chances of real life availability of ammo in the future. Good luck and please keep us posted on this!

Mike38 · August 16, 2015, 05:10 PM

Quote:

The military has found the Baretta M92 can't even withstand the 9mm and want to replace all of them.

So the millions of Berettas out there in the hands of the military and civilians are falling apart? Self destructing?

Shhh, please don't tell my 92FS that I've owned for over 10 years now.

Davelliott · August 16, 2015, 05:17 PM

This ctg. Exceeds the. 357 SIG because the SIG barely makes 357 magnum performance only with light bullets. If heavier bullets are used, then the SIG performs more like a 9mm+p or so at the expense of magazine capacity...being basically a necked down. 40 caliber...along with the 9x25 Dillon and the 10mm necked down.
The 9x23 is also limited in bullet weight before it drops in performance.
This ctg. needs the frame strength and length of a 45 acp or 10mm ctg.

BillM · August 16, 2015, 05:21 PM

I watched the videos. How's the pressure? Max SAAMI that I know of
in that case diameter is 55,000 for the 9x23. 39 super +P, 38 TJ, 38
Supercomp are around 36,500.

You are limited by case diameter, and a max OAL of around 1.280 in
most full size frames. Powder capacity is limited---I suspect you are
running a heavy charge of a fairly fast powder.

If you are getting the kind of velocities you quote out of a 2" barrel
at safe pressures, great---run with it. I suspect you are kicking
60,000+ psi, and eventually that Glock will explosively dis-assemble.

Been there, done that with USPSA major 9 in a G17. It stings a bit.

Davelliott · August 16, 2015, 05:27 PM

I bet it does!

Davelliott · August 16, 2015, 05:31 PM

Sorry Mike,
All I know is the military spends an inordinate amount of time and money trying to keep theirs working in the Iraqi and Afghani deserts and are seeking to replace all of them with something more modular, as they call it.

Davelliott · August 16, 2015, 05:35 PM

I will be uploading videos to youtube as progress is made. I will not upload videos of a different powder with the same velocities of another powder, to minimize duplication of performance in the videos.
I REALLY appreciate the GREAT questions guys!
Thank you!

Davelliott · August 16, 2015, 05:39 PM

My hopes are to have a CC pistol on this caliber with all the bennies of the 357 magnum...one day...after I figure out the loads that safely get me there...I can always load the hollow points down to IPSC standards...LOL

hoghunting · August 16, 2015, 06:04 PM

Some of us will not search for your videos, so if you want more people to watch them, how about providing a link?

Dragline45 · August 16, 2015, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davelliott

The military has found the Baretta M92 can't even withstand the 9mm and want to replace all of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davelliott

Sorry Mike,
All I know is the military spends an inordinate amount of time and money trying to keep theirs working in the Iraqi and Afghani deserts and are seeking to replace all of them with something more modular, as they call it.

Not to go off topic, but since you brought it up, that is absolutely false. The Beretta is perfectly capable of handling 10's of thousands of 9mm rounds as long as you keep up with maintenance. The reason they spend so much time trying to keep them running, and are looking to replace them, is most of their M9's are beat to hell and have who knows how many 10's of thousands of rounds through them, and they aren't shooting standard pressure 9mm, they shoot 9mm NATO which run at pressures 10% higher than standard pressure 9mm which accelerates wear and tear. The same thing happened when they went to replace the 1911's, those still in service at the time were rattle traps and were beat and shot to hell. I am not by any means a Beretta fan boy, just traded my Beretta for a Glock 17 last year, but Beretta's are great handguns and are perfectly capable of handling the 9mm contrary to what you might think.

jmr40 · August 16, 2015, 07:01 PM

Quote:

I have breached 1188 fps with 170 FMJ with this short barreled beauty...with more to come.

Sounds like you re-invented the 357 Sig. It'll match that with 180's from a 4.5-5" barrel.

A G22 in 40 S&W will do that with 200 gr bullets, a G29 in 10mm will do 1250 fps with 200 gr bullets.

DA/SA Fan · August 16, 2015, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Sounds like you re-invented the 357 Sig. It'll match that with 180's from a 4.5-5" barrel.

Not a necked down cartridge. Full 9mm capacity for a double stack semi-auto is something worth the effort IMO. Pretty much ideal as a matter of fact.

cougar gt-e · August 16, 2015, 07:15 PM

Jmr40, over 1100fps 200gr from a 40???

Staying in spec for pressure ?

Since 1000fps with a 180gr pushes the top of the pressure spec, I'm curious how you did it.

Fullclip610 · August 16, 2015, 07:34 PM

M9's can't handle 9mm...and then we're supposed to believe in your new cartridge. Ok

Radny97 · August 16, 2015, 08:00 PM

So like the Coonan 357 mag 1911 conversion but with a rimless cartridge? What are your psi levels?

August 16, 2015, 03:46 PM	#1
Davelliott Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2015 Posts: 138	New Cartridge 357 Ring Of Fire Hi folks, I am developing a new cartridge called the 357 Ring Of Fire. It delivers the power of a 357 magnum in a semi automatic rimless cartridge with 140, 158 and 170 grain. 357 bullets. It is a conversion designed for 1911, large framed glocks and of course all doublestack 1911 platforms. This conversion gives you the magazine capacity of a 9mm, but also the power of a 357 magnum medium and heavy bullets. I have videos on youtube for this 357 Ring Of Fire new cartridge showing progress and developments with a converted Glock 29 sub compact pistol. Check it out, spread the word if you like the concept Thanks! Dave Last edited by Davelliott; August 16, 2015 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Duplicate

August 16, 2015, 03:50 PM	#2
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	Sounds cool--a real "man in black" gun. ; ) __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

August 16, 2015, 03:55 PM	#3
Davelliott Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2015 Posts: 138	Stagpanther Thank you! I have breached 1188 fps with 170 FMJ with this short barreled beauty...with more to come.

August 16, 2015, 04:01 PM	#4
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	so what is it--a 10mm necked down to 357? __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

August 16, 2015, 04:29 PM	#5
DA/SA Fan Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2014 Location: Missouri Posts: 661	What are the dimensions of the brass, and how are you making it? How about a conversion for Tanfoglios while you're at it? I assume the cartridge would fit in a .38 super magazine? __________________ "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" CASTLE DOCTRINE STRONGLY ENFORCED "Happiness is a warm gun"

August 16, 2015, 04:34 PM	#6
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Dave, Can you list bullet weights with velocities obtained. What is the case based on? Any pics?

August 16, 2015, 04:41 PM	#7
Uncle Malice Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2009 Location: Phoenix Posts: 4,580	Interesting. Is this like a 357Sig in a larger case?? I'm picturing a necked down 10mm? What is the purpose or benefit vs a 10mm? The 357 sig was nice because it gives more power than a 9mm +P... providing ALMOST 357mag performance in a normal sized autoloader. If you have to step up to the large frame, 45cp/10mm guns for this loading, I don't see it taking off. __________________ Handguns: 2x Glock 19.4 \| Glock 26.4 \| HK USP 9 \| HK P2000 \| HK VP9 SK \| HK P30 \| CZ Shadow 2 \| CZ P-10 C \| CZ P-07 \| CZP-01 \| S&W 360PD Rifles: DDM4 \| SGL 21 \| SAM7K \| Draco \| PSA PDW SBR \| ASA Side-Charger SBR \| CZ Scorpion K SBR \| Aero M4E1 9" 300blk SBR \| Angstadt Jack9 SBR \| Savage Mark II FV-SR Shotguns: Mossberg 590A1 20" SP \| Mossberg Shockwave

August 16, 2015, 04:45 PM	#8
Davelliott Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2015 Posts: 138	All It is not a necked down ctg. I do not own a tangfilio to test...but the frame needs to be substantial. No 9mm or 40 s&w limited frame can safely withstand the pressures required for this ctg. The military has found the Baretta M92 can't even withstand the 9mm and want to replace all of them. The 357 ROF is more powerful than 38 super, 9x23 etc... and requires a sturdy frame. The Tangfolio may be strong enough, but I have not researched nor tested. If you would like to send one, and buy the conversion unit, I would be happy to test for safety and function. The 38 super magazines may work, but I have not tested those yet. This work only begun in late June and is limited to time and money for tests at this time...I hope this will change soon! Last edited by Davelliott; August 16, 2015 at 04:50 PM.

August 16, 2015, 04:49 PM	#9
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	Interesting concept. If you are going straight wall, how is it better than 38 super or 9x23? If it's a bottleneck---what's the advantage over 9x25 Dillon? (That's a 10mm necked down to 9mm) Evidently you see a niche that need filled, similar to the 460 Rowland or 50 GI.? Last edited by BillM; August 16, 2015 at 05:09 PM.

August 16, 2015, 05:06 PM	#10
Davelliott Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2015 Posts: 138	All I have breached 1188 fps with the 170 FMJ's. I am still testing 158's. So far they have only breached 1268 or so. These are not necked down ctgs. These give you 12 rounds in a 10mm magazine and 17-18 rounds in a 15 round 10mm magazine. These velocities are all from a Glock 29 conversion...sub compact and short barrel. This ctg. gives the performance of a 357 magnum revolver with high capacity and fast reloads like any other semi automatic pistol. Please take a moment to look at the youtube videos for the 357 Ring Of Fire...they may answer some questions you have. I would like to sell this concept to a manufacturer, so I will refrain from total disclosure at this time, but if you will, email or call your favorite gunmaker and ask for this cartridge. They know about it, but seem to be waiting for demand.

August 16, 2015, 05:08 PM	#11
DA/SA Fan Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2014 Location: Missouri Posts: 661	If I didn't just use my gun allowance I might actually have taken you up on that. I'd bet that the Tanfos are strong enough and there are already some pretty good recoil reduction goodies available for them. If you don't get around to testing on one by the time I'm ready for another handgun I just might be contacting you. I have always had a .38 super converted to 9x23 as a CC in the back of my mind. I guess it all depends on the chances of real life availability of ammo in the future. Good luck and please keep us posted on this! __________________ "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" CASTLE DOCTRINE STRONGLY ENFORCED "Happiness is a warm gun"

August 16, 2015, 05:17 PM	#13
Davelliott Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2015 Posts: 138	All This ctg. Exceeds the. 357 SIG because the SIG barely makes 357 magnum performance only with light bullets. If heavier bullets are used, then the SIG performs more like a 9mm+p or so at the expense of magazine capacity...being basically a necked down. 40 caliber...along with the 9x25 Dillon and the 10mm necked down. The 9x23 is also limited in bullet weight before it drops in performance. This ctg. needs the frame strength and length of a 45 acp or 10mm ctg.

August 16, 2015, 05:21 PM	#14
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	I watched the videos. How's the pressure? Max SAAMI that I know of in that case diameter is 55,000 for the 9x23. 39 super +P, 38 TJ, 38 Supercomp are around 36,500. You are limited by case diameter, and a max OAL of around 1.280 in most full size frames. Powder capacity is limited---I suspect you are running a heavy charge of a fairly fast powder. If you are getting the kind of velocities you quote out of a 2" barrel at safe pressures, great---run with it. I suspect you are kicking 60,000+ psi, and eventually that Glock will explosively dis-assemble. Been there, done that with USPSA major 9 in a G17. It stings a bit.

August 16, 2015, 05:27 PM	#15
Davelliott Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2015 Posts: 138	Billm I bet it does!

August 16, 2015, 05:31 PM	#16
Davelliott Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2015 Posts: 138	Mike 38 Sorry Mike, All I know is the military spends an inordinate amount of time and money trying to keep theirs working in the Iraqi and Afghani deserts and are seeking to replace all of them with something more modular, as they call it.

August 16, 2015, 05:35 PM	#17
Davelliott Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2015 Posts: 138	All I will be uploading videos to youtube as progress is made. I will not upload videos of a different powder with the same velocities of another powder, to minimize duplication of performance in the videos. I REALLY appreciate the GREAT questions guys! Thank you!

August 16, 2015, 05:39 PM	#18
Davelliott Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2015 Posts: 138	DA/SA FAN My hopes are to have a CC pistol on this caliber with all the bennies of the 357 magnum...one day...after I figure out the loads that safely get me there...I can always load the hollow points down to IPSC standards...LOL

August 16, 2015, 06:04 PM	#19
hoghunting Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2006 Posts: 1,559	Some of us will not search for your videos, so if you want more people to watch them, how about providing a link?

August 16, 2015, 07:15 PM	#23
cougar gt-e Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2009 Posts: 1,003	Jmr40, over 1100fps 200gr from a 40??? Staying in spec for pressure ? Since 1000fps with a 180gr pushes the top of the pressure spec, I'm curious how you did it.

August 16, 2015, 07:34 PM	#24
Fullclip610 Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2014 Posts: 119	M9's can't handle 9mm...and then we're supposed to believe in your new cartridge. Ok

August 16, 2015, 08:00 PM	#25
Radny97 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2015 Posts: 1,021	So like the Coonan 357 mag 1911 conversion but with a rimless cartridge? What are your psi levels?