A different perspective on Birdshot for HD

[Webleymkv]

While the ongoing debate about Birdshot vs. Buckshot for HD shows no signs of ending anytime soon, I think there is a factor that is often overlooked. While opponents of birdsot often cite its lack of penetration as the main argument against it, and for the most part I agree, I think it is often forgotten that not all birdshot is equal. I think there may be some merit to using coarser birdshot (i.e. BB or coarser) particularly with steel or tungsten shot. Apparently, I'm not alone in this thought as Remington's new line of Home Defense ammo is available with BB tungsten shot. The best arguments that I can see for this type of shot is that it would provide penetration somewhat similar to the finer buckshot such as #4 while providing a substantially higher pellet count. While I do stick to buckshot in my 20 and 12 gauge shotguns (#3 and #4 respectively), I prefer BB in my 10 gauge as it provides a significantly higher pellet count than 00 Buck (the only size buckshot commercially available for 10ga) with over 100 pellets as opposed to 18. Thoughts?

[JerseyDrez]

I think buckshot, even slugs, are better than birdshot for HD.

But, even though birdshot (in general) does not penetrate well, it might not kill them but it would probably bring the BG down.

[Goatwhiskers]

To my mind a pointless argument. If you're shooting the BG at 25 or 30 yards you have something to discuss. At room distances the shot load hasn't separated from the cup and you're hitting the BG with the full 7/8, 1, or 1 1/8 gob of lead and it doesn't matter what size of shot is contained in the shot cup. That's why a .410 is one of the best HD weapons, you're hitting the BG with a wad of lead with an impact approximate equal to a .44 magnum but you won't blow thru 2 walls and kill you're wife down the hall. The key words being "room distance". Think about it. By the way, shooting the BG at long distance brings the possibility of all kinds of legal ramifications. Here endeth the lesson. Goatwhiskers the Elder

[John76248]

I saw some of Remingtons new HD shells yesterday at Cabela's (Yea I know your paying for atomsphere) it was 29.99 for a box of 10. I guess if Wally world had some it would be 20 bucks for 10. Needless to say I kept on moving. I bought some Remington reduced recoil law enforcement shells for less than a buck each at a gunshow. I'll stick to that thank you very much.

[Shawn Dodson]

About 10 years ago Federal offered a 12 gauge Personal Defense Shotshell (product number PD12-2). It was loaded with #2 birdshot. I tested it:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea14.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs13.htm

At room distances the shot load hasn't separated from the cup and you're hitting the BG with the full 7/8, 1, or 1 1/8 gob of lead and it doesn't matter what size of shot is contained in the shot cup. That's why a .410 is one of the best HD weapons, you're hitting the BG with a wad of lead with an impact approximate equal to a .44 magnum but you won't blow thru 2 walls and kill you're wife down the hall. The key words being "room distance". Think about it. By the way, shooting the BG at long distance brings the possibility of all kinds of legal ramifications.

This is speculation. Even if the pellets hit the target enmass they don't reliably penetrated deeply enough to reach and damage vitals, especially if they hit an arm first.

[Goatwhiskers]

An ounce and 1/8 of buckshot equals an ounce and 1/8 of 7 1/2 shot. Mass is mass and you won't get any different penetration at ROOM DISTANCE. Read your high school physics book. After the shot leaves the cup at about 15 or so yards it's a whole 'nother ball game. Goat

[Shawn Dodson]

An ounce and 1/8 of buckshot equals an ounce and 1/8 of 7 1/2 shot. Mass is mass and you won't get any different penetration at ROOM DISTANCE. Read your high school physics book. After the shot leaves the cup at about 15 or so yards it's a whole 'nother ball game.

It's no different than a Glaser Safety Slug, with the same inadequate penetration depth problems. The problem is that the mass isn't a single large mass but hundreds of tiny sub-masses that quickly lose velocity and momentum on impact.

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by Shawn Dodson

About 10 years ago Federal offered a 12 gauge Personal Defense Shotshell (product number PD12-2). It was loaded with #2 birdshot. I tested it:

So, it would seem that you came to the conclusion that the #2 load you tested was somewhat viable as a reduced penetration loading for those concerned with such (apartment dwellers etc.). It would seem to me that the combination of even coarser shot (the new Remington load is BB which is the finest I'd reccomend) with the tougher pellet construction of either tungsten or steel shot would serve to reduce pellet deformation and increase penetration. Thusly, it would seem that this type of shot would be just as viable, if not more so, than the Federal #2 loads you tested.

[ADB]

To my mind a pointless argument. If you're shooting the BG at 25 or 30 yards you have something to discuss. At room distances the shot load hasn't separated from the cup and you're hitting the BG with the full 7/8, 1, or 1 1/8 gob of lead and it doesn't matter what size of shot is contained in the shot cup.

Bingo! At home defense distances, anything delivered out of a 12 gauge barrel is going to be fatal if you shoot center of mass. Hell, at that distance even less-than-lethal rounds are considered too dangerous to use.

[Shawn Dodson]

I've always believed that if one desires to minimize risk associated with an errant shot, then a shotgun is the best choice.

Load it so the first one or two shots fired is birdshot, and then be ready to follow up with buckshot if required.

BB shot is larger than the #2 I tested. I'm on field assignment right now and I don't have access to my wound ballistics library, but I'll make a point of looking up the expected penetration depth of BB shot and posting it here when I return home.

[Shawn Dodson]

Bingo! At home defense distances, anything delivered out of a 12 gauge barrel is going to be fatal if you shoot center of mass.

That's dangerous assumption. Also don't confuse "fatal" with "rapidly incapacitating".

[Kmar40]

Yeah, but dangerous assumptions are ok as long as they are accepted old wives tales.

[rc]

Experiment, Place 2x4 2 feet in front of your shotgun barrel. Firing in safe direction unleash 1oz load of #8 12 guage. Watch you 2X4 react as a large 1 inch plus sized hole is punched clean through with lots of splintering. You don't need a full 12" deep penetration wound to kill if you can shread an attacker's thorax with one shot putting a 1 inch hole in them. Death is almost instant. Birdshot will work for defense when someone is coming at you down a hallway at near contact distances to perhaps 10 feet. It will not work for offense or long range defense. Take 2x4 and shoot at 25 yards with #8. None will penetrate deep enough to be deadly. They will have enough shot density to blind however If all I could afford was birdshot, I'd go for at least #6 shot and preferably #4 or larger. The tactics are more important than the gun or load. Are you running out from cover to take on someone in which case you are agressing, or are you barricaded in your safe room protecting a fatal funnel in your castle? Most of the time just having a gun will be enough to deter confrontation and provide for lethal defensive ability. Like a .22 rifle, a shotgun with birdshot is not ideal, but if employed with effective tactics will work in a pinch. Unfortunately, you'll need a gun most when you least expect it. You'll just have to use what's at hand to defend yourself. rc

[Shawn Dodson]

Now put four inches of muscle tissue in front of your 2x4 to simulate an arm blocking the path of your birdshot to center of mass.

Your results will be markedly different.

With an unobstructed hit birdshot won't "shred" an attacker's thorax any more than it shreds a piece of cardboard. It'll create a shallow rat hole.

[spacecoast]

As pointed out in another thread, both physics and real-world testing indicate that the penetration and therefore stopping power of buckshot is far superior to birdshot. At distances under 10 feet it probably doesn't make a lot of difference, but if the BG hides behind a door while shooting at me I would sure rather be using something that will go through the door rather than bounce off it, especially if it's an oblique angle.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

[Goatwhiskers]

I say again: when talking about home defense, you are talking about room distance and the BG being the agressor, in which birdshot as well as anything else is quite suitable. Any distance much greater is a situation in which you are the agressor (bad) or an urban combat situation (worse), either of which is entirely different from home defense which was the original concept. Goat

[MTT TL]

If you feel for some reason that you have to use birdshot than use the #2 lead. It was hell on geese back in the day before the bans. But slugs are still better every day of the week.

[inSight-NEO]

Bingo! At home defense distances, anything delivered out of a 12 gauge barrel is going to be fatal if you shoot center of mass.

Sorry...but, not true. This is the "magic wand" philosopy.

The 12 ga. is not an instantaneous "death dealer." Rather, it is simply an effective tool (although somewhat limited) by which you can greatly increase the odds in your favor, vs. other means, during a close range encounter...and nothing more.


To the OP- (some of my comments may be somewhat off-topic).....

I wont get in to the whole "buckshot vs. birdshot" thing in detail, other than to say I would be just fine with either (for HD). However, for my own personal reasons, I generally prefer Low-Recoil 00 Buck to anything else. This could change, but probably wont.

Sure, within 10 feet or so it may not make much of a difference what you are using (emphasis on "may not"), but you just never know what a situation may call for. Besides, if one is going to be firing within 10 feet or so of the BG, I would like to think that catastrophic misses would not be likely. Possible with a SG? Certainly. Probable? Dubious.

Anything much beyond the range of 10 feet or so, well...the heavier, harder hitting loads just might come in handy. You just never know.

Regardless of buckshot or birdshot, the shotgun, when compared to most "effective" handgun loads, is fairly benign in terms of penetration issues, from what I gather. Many, many peeps continue to use handguns for HD (which are harder to aim, somewhat harder to master and again, more often than not, much more penetrative). Yet it seems the greatest focus, when it comes to handguns (for HD use), centers around "stopping" capability vs. overpenetration. Hence, the whole "birdshot vs. buckshot" thing has never been something I dwell on excessively.

Now, for those who continue to argue that using 00 Buck will almost certainly result in the imminent death of anyone in the next room or apartment...well, when taken as a whole, I just dont buy that argument. Keep in mind, birdshot too can sail through walls...dont kid yourself on this one. Sure, certain loads are more penetrative than others, but almost any fired weapon can lead to unexpected (and potentially disastrous) results. So, if one is constantly worried about such matters, my advice iwould be to sell the guns and simply use a knife, bat or whatever other means necessary for fending off a brutal assault.

Also, while Im certainly no mathmetician, many seem to focus more on spread (within certain distances) vs. paying just as much, if not more, attention to velocity+mass. Plus, I would imagine barrel length would affect the results to one degree or another. Ditto, most certainly, if we are comparing smoothbores to rifled bores.

Either way, getting hit by 9 hornets or 20+ honeybees...neither is a good thing. But, to me, higher pellet count does not mean much. Frankly, I prefer to load up with 9 hornets and just leave it at that. If you prefer something else, thats fine as well. Being armed is still being armed.

[Bill DeShivs]

I know a man who was shot at across the room distance with a load of #8 birdshot. It was not a shallow wound. The ER surgeon pulled the wad off his spine. Blew out part of a lung.
Even a "shallow wound" an inch in diameter and 5" into the body cavity is pretty damned devastating. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply not thinking correctly. And anyone with such a wound will cease all hostile activity immediately.

[Creeper]

Baschieri & Pellagri makes a "baby magnum" round available in the US.

It's loaded with 1.5 oz. of Italian '0' shot at a bit under 1300fps. '0' Italian works out to a .154" diameter... a little larger than #2 shot.

Recoil with this round in my M2 is substantial... more so than the Federal and Winchester 00 buck I had on hand for comparison.

Might prove to be a good HD round for those that prefer not to use buckshot.

C

[inSight-NEO]

I know a man who was shot at across the room distance with a load of #8 birdshot. It was not a shallow wound. The ER surgeon pulled the wad off his spine. Blew out part of a lung.
Even a "shallow wound" an inch in diameter and 5" into the body cavity is pretty damned devastating. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply not thinking correctly. And anyone with such a wound will cease all hostile activity immediately.

I agree. But, is this one of those "isolated" events or is this result typical of using birdshot?

Im not saying birshot is ineffective...not at all. But, Ive heard many accounts of peeps being stopped "dead in their tracks" by a .22 caliber as well.

What I mean is, does birshot truly have the overall same "shock"/damage/stopping effect that 00 Buck does? For now, I shall remain dubious on this one.

[rc]

Even if an arm happened to get in the way, a bloody stump would be all that would be left and massive blood loss would result. A second shot could be applied if needed. Do you think a .38 would keep moving in a straight line in that situation without the need for a second shot? I also know an ER doc and he pulled a wad outta a guy DOA. Birdshot kills as dead as anything at close range, period end of story. Buck is fine also but you are LIABLE for every pellet big or small that might hit a bystander. Bird shot has the most limited penetration and in my opinion would be the only responsible choice in an apartment setting. Buck is best for open spaces or where longer shots are needed. Arguing that one shot fits all situations "best" is rediculous. rc

[inSight-NEO]

Do you think a .38 would keep moving in a straight line in that situation without the need for a second shot?

????

I also know an ER doc and he pulled a wad outta a guy DOA. Birdshot kills as dead as anything at close range, period end of story.

It might...depending on shot placement. Subjective.

Buck is fine also but you are LIABLE for every pellet big or small that might hit a bystander.

...along with anything else fired out of a barrel, regardless of caliber. Birdshot is certainly not exempt from this rule.

Bird shot has the most limited penetration and in my opinion would be the only responsible choice in an apartment setting. Buck is best for open spaces or where longer shots are needed.

This is subjective....

Arguing that one shot fits all situations "best" is ridiculous.

For the most part I agree with this. Even so...buckshot is a more versatile round vs. birdshot, IMHO.

[Shawn Dodson]

Even if an arm happened to get in the way, a bloody stump would be all that would be left and massive blood loss would result.

FBI Agent Edmundo Mireles was hit in the arm by a .223 bullet fired by Michael Platt during the 1986 shootout in Miami. The wound completely disabled Mireles' arm but he went on to kill both Platt and Matix afterward.

There's a lot of hypothesizing going here about the wounding effects of 12 gauge birdshot but no data to support the claims. I'm on field assigment and I don't have access to my wound ballistics library otherwise I'd provide some of my own.

Beware of those who state opinions but don't provide data to support their claims, myself included.

[inSight-NEO]

Im sure most of you have visited this site, but here it goes!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Basically you will find that whether using 00 Buck or birdshot (or slugs for that matter), there are certainly compromises/choices to be made. Ditto if you are using a handgun for HD.

Of course, Im sure results will vary as there are many factors at play here.

Its interesting though, I have yet to find any solid data concerning low recoil 00 Buckshot [9 pellet] (my preference). Im only assuming its because the "low recoil" version may be considered a "specialty" round. Who knows? Regardless, given the lower velocity of such loads [1100 or so] vs. the 1300+ of "standard" 00 Buckshot, it would be interesting to see the comparisons.