Two Open Carriers Stopped, News Article

[Mawetta]

Not in a anti-gun city or a city with a high crime rate. NOPD doesn't exactly have a good reputation considering federal charges were filed but only a month ago. We change chiefs so much i don't even know what to think.

Go ahead and exercise your rights, if you have the money to buy your freedom. Without a private lawyer you are better off not even using self-defense. Sad reality, but i know what i've seen inside the Orleans prison system.


I will never open carry, or defend myself, or have a gun anywhere outside of my home or the shooting range trips. I almost got stuck in Jail for months.

[johnwilliamson062]

They were right not to give up their ID's. Once the cops have your ID, you aren't really free to leave. They could then nab you for driving without a license.

Maybe in MI. In Ohio you have 24 business hours to produce your license to the court. If the series of events you described were to actually occur then and citizen with the gumption to pursue a lawsuit would likely find the endeavor financially rewarding although a headache.

Sorry your experiences in NO have been so hostile. My experiences in Ohio, including Columbus and around even Dayton which is not exactly low crime, have been very satisfactory. It takes a few people pushing social limits for those limits to change. I think the reason OC'ers in Ohio now meet so little resistance outside of a few well known and legally besieged municipalities is that a few people did most of the heavy lifting on LEO awareness shortly after OC/CCW became legal by challenging law enforcement in the way these two did.

[Xfire68]

All I can say is WOW!:barf::barf::barf:

Maybe if they wrote the laws like the Dick and Jan books the people that need to understand them and enforce them could????

[Mike Irwin]

"Not in a anti-gun city or a city with a high crime rate."

Think again.

There have been numerous stops of Virginians who are open carrying in BOTH anti-gun cities AND high crime areas.

Your problem appears to be that you are attempting this in what is widely regarded as the city with the nation's most corrupt police department.

[Sefner]

http://www.opencarry.com is a website for Open Carriers. You can find stories listed by state. MI currently has over 77,000 posts and one thread that is over 300 pages long on just Open Carry experiences. The VAST majority (99%) of these experiences look something like this: "OC'd in Wal-Mart, Gas Station, McDonalds for lunch, then took the dog for a walk. No issues." Every once in a while you get something weird like Mawetta is describing, but those issues are always resolved in court and end up on the side of the defendant. Even with that, not a single person has ever spent anytime in jail or had to pay a bond (that I know of) for anything brought about as a result of legally Open Carrying a firearm.

Does that mean everyone should open carry? Absolutely not. Does that mean that the police and general public are learning that gun owners aren't a bunch of crazy redneck Hutaree members out looking to vigilante the city into submission? Read some of the stories about positive police encounters. Even some in Detroit.

[BillCA]

Webb and Harris respond that he doesn't have the right to do that and that they are allowed to carry their firearms.
"Well, you know what, then, you can sue me," Buckmaster responds. "I don't care."

Take him up on the offer. The Assistant Chief obviously doesn't give a damn about the law or the civil rights of the citizens. It's time to show him that he's wrong, in a big way.

Police officers then ask the two men for their identification, which the men say they don't need to provide. The officers say they want identification so they can know if the two are felons.
:
If I give you my ID and prove that I'm not a felon, can I carry here?" Harris asks.
"No," Buckmaster says.
"So, what's the difference then?" Harris says.
Related
"Nothing," Buckmaster says. "So, just leave."

So, Buckmaster lied when he said he wanted to find out if they were felons. In essence, it would be the same kind of constitutional violation if he walked into a bar and demanded every patron provide ID so he could ensure none were parolees violating a no-alcohol rule.

Buckmaster at several points threatens arrest if Harris and Webb do not leave.
Webb and Harris ask under what law they would be arrested. Buckmaster replies disorderly conduct. He adds the men were disorderly because they won't provide identification.

The Asst.(remove the 't') Chief demands identification, threatens to arrest them for not providing same as "disorderly conduct" with no supporting state law, then says later that providing ID would make no difference. How quaint.

The next day, Harris said, he called Buelow and talked about the situation. He then went to the police station to file an official complaint. He said no forms were available, and the chief was not in the office.

Do you think the lack of complaint forms might have been orchestrated? The real answer would be to enlist some other good citizen to inquire at the front desk how one files a complaint. If the officer says you fill out a form and talk to I/A personnel ... but can't give you a form, that in itself is likely a violation of state laws. If a form is given out, the citizen can take it back to the carriers to file for action.

The carriers should contact their local association(s) for some legal assistance. They could get their letter of apology and force some changes in that department in lieu of a full blown §1983 suit in Federal court. They could even suggest that alternative is acceptable as a "learning situation" for the ASSt. Chief as well as for the rest of the force.

Personal Opinion - Buckmaster is the kind of cop who is used to using intimidation and threats of illegal actions to get what he wants. As evidenced by his statements, HE has a problem with citizens carrying guns - most likely because he believes it's a special privilege of badge holders. He's gonna do what he wants to, regardless of the law or civil rights (sounds somewhat like a criminal, no?) and use intimidation, harrassment and threats to do it. He invites the citizens to sue him because he doesn't believe their "mumbo jumbo". Not only should they sue him, they stand a good chance of showing that as an Asst. Chief he should have known his actions were flagrant civil rights violations -- stripping him of any legal protections against being sued individually. Once he loses his house it'll put PD's on notice that running roughshod over people's rights won't be tolerated. And losing that kind of suit makes him inelegible for most LEO positions in the future too.

If the Chief doesn't at least restrict him to clerical duties for six months, the Chief - who said he is "not going to second-guess my officers on the street" should be censured by the city counsel for failing in HIS duties.

[fineredmist]

If you want some interesting reading do a search for "James Goldberg in Ct" and see whta he went through with local and State police who did not know the law and were arrogant to boot. He is sitting on a legal settlement with the State as I write this. I know James and his family personally and they went through a great deal of misery with this. It is a education to read.

[NavyLT]

Originally Posted by mawetta

Go ahead and exercise your rights, if you have the money to buy your freedom. Without a private lawyer you are better off not even using self-defense. Sad reality, but i know what i've seen inside the Orleans prison system.


I will never open carry, or defend myself, or have a gun anywhere outside of my home or the shooting range trips. I almost got stuck in Jail for months.

The jail cell of a coffin knows no defense lawyers or parole. I would rather pay the lawyers than cause my life insurance to pay the funeral director any day.

[Xfire68]

BillCA, I agree completely! I listened to the audio again this morning and it just got my blood boiling!

LEO's can't be allowed to just make up the laws the way that they see fit and only if it helps their situation! This NEEDS to be a lesson for this department and others like it!

More and more I feel as though we are all in a police state and can't "really" live freely in any way due to these revenuer's that feel they are above the rest of us!

I am not anti LEO's in any way even though it may sound like it. I have a number of friends that are police officers. It is the ones that abuse the system to no end that rub me the wrong way! They need to remember we DO have rights?

[MTT TL]

I see stories like this posted all the time sans audio tape.

The police have a little problem in that they want to keep the public safe but are often not skilled enough to properly recognize threats. For example in this situation something that has been often brought up is that they could have been mass shooters. Number of mass shooters operating as a pair and open carrying nationwide in the US = zero to date. After a two minute chat it should have been 100% apparent that they were not a threat at all.

But if you are the deputy police chief how do you back down from trying to control the situation? Your ego won't allow it.

He then compounded his error by lying to cover his butt. Something more common in public service these days than hamburgers.

[Mawetta]

My friend was put in handcuffs for around 30 minutes over a toy gun, with an orange Muzzle! He had to wait in handcuffs until a high ranking officer came out to release him. - Hammond Louisiana.

[langenc]

My friend was put in handcuffs for around 30 minutes over a toy gun, with an orange Muzzle! He had to wait in handcuffs until a high ranking officer came out to release him. - Hammond Louisiana.

What a shame!! No need to remind me to stay out of NOLA and all of LA, along w/ IL and Wisconsin.


I hope the fellows from Marysville, MI sue for all they can!!

[BillCA]

I see stories like this posted all the time sans audio tape.

The police have a little problem in that they want to keep the public safe but are often not skilled enough to properly recognize threats. For example in this situation something that has been often brought up is that they could have been mass shooters. Number of mass shooters operating as a pair and open carrying nationwide in the US = zero to date. After a two minute chat it should have been 100% apparent that they were not a threat at all.

Perhaps I was lucky... during my LE training and when working with senior officers, I learned that there are times when taking a "soft approach" and learning what you can before you decide to take enforcement action is the best way to deal with non-violent people.

Obviously LEOs do have a safety concern and it would be prudent to tell the O/C'ers to keep their hands away from their weapons "and we'll get along fine." 98% should understand that. The obstinate 2% who don't will learn why it's a good idea.¹

Anytime a LEO encounters someone doing "the unusual" that is not harming anyone or anything and they start citing statutes, case law or questioning under which statute they'll be charged, the immediate next question is "are you advocating or protesting something?" This usually gives them a chance to "impress" you with their knowledge (right or wrong) and disclose their purpose. If they claim they're "just exercising their rights" you can ask them to "enlighten" you. This can be an interesting and polite discourse. In some instances, the LEO can tell them either to go on their way OR inform them that some other statute applies² [if it does] and give them a chance to "correct" their behavior.

Of course, for this to happen, the officer has to be comfortable enough that the people he's talking to are not attempting to either "catch him off guard" or "set him up" for some kind of legal action. And too many "activists" seem to go to great lengths in asking stupid, annoying or momentarily irrelevant questions, IMO. In the case at hand, the Asst. Chief opened himself and his department to some serious civil rights claims. I hope he feels silly sitting in an academy class with recruits learning the principles of the constitution.


¹ Face it - if you don't understand why, you shouldn't be carrying. If you understand and claim it's your right to do as you please by putting your hand on/near the gun, just remember the phrase "Life is tough when you're stupid".

² In some states, a city's muni code might cover having firearms around carnivals, county fairs and the like. Or it may be that guns are prohibited in city/county parks as part of the "parks & recreation" code or "health & safety" code.

[HKFan9]

These cops should be out of the job IMO. They were completely rude from the start, and you can tell they are just on a power trip. He continued to openly admit he would make up a story and arrest the man for Disorderly conduct... WOW. If the chief heard this same audio tape, I would hope he had the common sense to take their badges right there. Unfortunately a lot of police departments are a "good ol' boys club" and they will get a slap on the wrist.

People wonder why citizens are coming more and more wary of police officers... I know there are a FEW good ones out there, and my heart goes out to you.... but some of your fellow officers are the last people I would want to protect and serve me....

[KyJim]

There's no doubt the Asst. Chief here was way in the wrong. And, if I were the chief, I would have those complaint forms available and order the Asst. Chief apologize. The Asst. Chief is open to liability and the city possibly possibly exposed to liability by failing to provide training and/or take corrective action.

This does provide a good lesson for anyone engaged in lawful conduct that some officer might not like -- have a tape recorder handy and turn it on (assuming this doesn't violate any state eavesdropping statute).