Emergency use of .308 in 30-06 Garand?

ffs1942 · March 20, 2013, 11:09 PM

Can the .308 be fired in a 30-06 M1?

tahunua001 · March 20, 2013, 11:27 PM

in some cases yes but it's highly recommended against... really tears up the throat and has potential for ruptured cases...

during WWII GIs used 7.7 jap ammo in their guns, also very bad idea as 7.7 jap is 311 instead of 308...

do not plan on ever doing this.

Art Eatman · March 21, 2013, 07:36 AM

There used to be a guy who made inserts to allow shooting .308 in an '06. They worked okay for a while, but commonly would pull out during extraction of the fired case. I've no idea if they're still available, but I wouldn't use one.

All in all, best to stay with the proper ammo. Plenty of '06 brass around.

Orlando · March 21, 2013, 09:30 AM

No not in a 30.06 chambered Garand

alex0535 · March 21, 2013, 09:51 AM

This just seems like a really bad idea unless you want to do serious damage to the rife. .308 and .30-06 are really only similar on the diameter of the bullet.

The chamber on a rifle is there for a reason. To give the outer surface of the case support. You load a .308 into a .30-06 chamber and there is going to be a substantial gap in the chamber that this bullet is going to have to jump across and into your barrel instead not having to jump across any gap because the cartridge is too short.

Stand up an unfired .308 and a .30-06 next to each other, look at them. See the difference? One belongs in a .308 and the other belongs in a .30-06.

chris in va · March 21, 2013, 10:39 AM

I'm trying to imagine any sort of modern 'emergency situation' that would call for the use of 308 in a Garand.

kilimanjaro · March 21, 2013, 10:44 AM

You need to put the bayonet on the Garand and go for a vertical buttstroke or two.

Since you are apparently planning for this emergency, you have plenty of time to go and get some 30.06 ammo.

James K · March 21, 2013, 10:56 AM

Maybe I am about to cross the line between screaming "NO! NO!" and sounding like I recommend something.

I do not recommend it, but 7.62 NATO can be fired in an M1 rifle with no problems and no bad effects. The case ends up looking like a rimless .45-70. Because the 7.62 is wider at the shoulder than the .30 is at the same point, the shorter case wedges itself into the chamber. It is nearly impossible to do that in a bolt action, but the closing power of the M1 is more than enough to force the 7.62 in and close the bolt.

As to 7.7 Japanese in a .30-'06 chamber, the result is about the same except that the result is a short neck case. No special force is needed to get the shorter round to chamber, and even the Japanese clips work fine in a Model 1903 rifle. The .003" larger bullet has little or no effect and there are no signs of high pressure. (At normal pressure, a bullet becomes quite malleable, acting almost like it was made from Silly Putty, conforming to barrel dimensions, whether larger or smaller than the bullet itself.)

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · March 21, 2013, 11:02 AM

In the 1950s and 1960s the Navy had chamber inserts for their Garands. As was mentioned, the insert would occasionally come flying out with the ejected case.

**Mike Irwin** · March 21, 2013, 11:04 AM

Regarding Japanese 7.7 in the Garand, I've heard that this would, over time, cause problems with bending the operating rod as the Japanese powders resulted in port pressures that were too high.

Don't know if it's true or not.

Bart B. · March 21, 2013, 11:11 AM

When the US Navy rebarreled a lot of Garands to 7.62 NATO for the San Diego Recruit Training Command's use on the range at Camp Elliott, once in a while the kid issuing ammo didn't check the rifle type he issued ammo for. Same thing at the Naval District matches across the country when both .30-06 and 7.62 Garands were used.

In both instances, no reports of bad things happening to the rifle nor the shooter. Hundreds of NATO rounds were fired in 30 caliber chambers. Lots of neckless cases on the firing line was not something that was noticed by their shooters. I've stopped a few myself from continuing after noticing them and got them the correct ammo.

Those chamber inserts were the most dangerous part of the whole thing. Few were tight enough fit (had to be driven in with a mallet pounding on a setting tool) to stay there. The USN quickly got rid of the barrels that had them and put 7.62 barrels in those Garands. I think there were a few that didn't get backwards converted and ended up at the CMP for sales with the 7.62 barreled M1's. I've heard of only two that came out at one of the local matches they were used in.

I'd shoot 'em in an emergency and forget about it except for dragging the perpertrator out of the way to pick up the empty brass then calling the county medical examiner to come check out the perpertrator before bagging him.

James K · March 21, 2013, 11:14 AM

I didn't try the 7.7 in an M1 rifle, only in an M1903A3, so I don't know about port pressures. I do know that that issue has been so wildly exaggerated that I am not sure what to believe any more. There has been a lot of scare stories (tens of thousands of Americans died in Vietnam with M1 op rods through their heads!*) and a wealth of hype and misinformation from folks selling various gadgets to reduce or release gas cylinder pressure.

*Oddly, no one noticed this at the time; most folks thought the VC and NVA were responsible. And U.S. troops in VN didn't have M1 rifles, a small detail which also escaped the rumor mongers.

Jim

Bart B. · March 21, 2013, 11:20 AM

You will get higher pressures in a .30-06 chamber than the 7.7 gets in its own barrels simple 'cause its bullets are larger in diameter.

Mobuck · March 21, 2013, 01:00 PM

DO NOT FIRE ANY AMMO OTHER THAN WHAT IS MARKED ON THE FIREARM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You cannot SAFELY fire 308 in a 30/06 chamber w/o an adapter of some sort.
Where so you guys get these ideas???????????

Bart B. · March 21, 2013, 01:42 PM

DO NOT FIRE ANY AMMO OTHER THAN WHAT IS MARKED ON THE FIREARM!

OK, fine. We all promise to never fire and .38 Special ammo in our .357 magnum revolvers with their barrels stamped ".357 Magnum."

And we'll also quit shooting .22 shorts in our rimfire rifles marked ".22 Long Rifle."

Does the 7.62 NATO round qualify as a no-no in .308 Win. chambers found in barrels marked ".308 Win.", too, along with 5.56 NATO ammo in .223 Rem. chambers in barrels marked the same?

Did I leave any other cartridge pair that's a no-no?

Mobuck · March 21, 2013, 02:34 PM

You miss the point of my statement. Shall we say there are exceptions to every rule? The OP's question concerned a very dangerous incompatability in cartridges. In addtion, there were several absurd possible choices of interchangeability of ammo.
Many newer firearms in 357 mag also list the 38 Sp as acceptable. Regarding the 22 rimfire, in many cases, NO you should not use shorts in a long rifle chambered firearm for functional reasons.

kraigwy · March 21, 2013, 03:41 PM

I use to run sniper schools, the NG guys used M1c/d's, the RA guys used the M21's.

Both used white box, either M118 or M72. The guard guys were always grabbing the wrong ammo shooting 308 in the Garands. Couldn't hit crap but no problems other then that.

The cases looked like 458 WM without the belt. I had to hire a special ammo guy to issue the right ammo..........dummies.

Jim Watson · March 21, 2013, 04:19 PM

How bad is the emergency?
How poor was preparation that you have on hand an M1 and clips but no .30-06; .308 ammunition and no .308 rifle?
I think the zombies have already eaten your brain.

Gunnutfn49 · March 21, 2013, 04:28 PM

Nonononononononono

Cesure · March 21, 2013, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Did I leave any other cartridge pair that's a no-no?

The .32 S&W into the .32 S&W Long into the .32 H&R Mag into the .327 Federal Mag. They're all .311 bullets in straight walled cases.

The problem with .308 in a .30-06 is that the case will most likely become unreloadable and that's a shame.

**Mike Irwin** · March 21, 2013, 08:00 PM

"The OP's question concerned a very dangerous incompatability in cartridges."

Actually, as far as cartridge swaps go, it is not particularly dangerous.

As noted, the .308 will hold nicely into the chamber of many rifles, allowing it to be fired and extracted.

Because the .308 is based on the .30-06 case, the head is fully supported upon firing, so there's virtually no danger of a case head failure filling the action with the very angry genie that lives amongst the powder grains.

Because the .308 uses the same diameter bullet as the .30-06, there's virtually no danger of a spike in pressure bursting the action. In fact, pressure will be significantly decreased because of all of the extra space that has to be filled where there is no case at the front of the chamber.

David13 · March 21, 2013, 08:40 PM

"How bad is the emergency?
How poor was preparation that you have on hand an M1 and clips but no .30-06; .308 ammunition and no .308 rifle?
I think the zombies have already eaten your brain."

Jim
I think you have figured out the emergency. And the emergency has come and gone.
dc

jmr40 · March 21, 2013, 08:42 PM

Quote:

I'm trying to imagine any sort of modern 'emergency situation' that would call for the use of 308 in a Garand.

Because someone else is trying to shoot you. You have a 30-06 chambered Garand and a handful of 308 ammo. If it will go bang when I pull the trigger and not blow up the gun, which seems probable in this case, I'd do it and worry about any gun damage later.

Art Eatman · March 21, 2013, 08:52 PM

Can we bury the horse now, before it goes to smelling bad?

James K · March 21, 2013, 09:02 PM

I really considered the question a hypothetical one from the start. But I have been playing gun games for a long time and checking out (with care) some of the things people say are impossible or will cause world-wide nuclear destruction, and so far I am in one piece (so, AFAIK, is the world, at least yet).

I agree that as a general rule, Mobuck is correct. Another good general rule is not pointing a gun at anything we don't intend to shoot. But if you think about that, it becomes silly; every time I remove a gun from the safe, I am pointing it at a lot of things I am not going to shoot. If I put a loaded pistol in my holster, I will point it at the wall, the floor, and other things I sure don't want to put a hole in.

Jim

March 20, 2013, 11:09 PM	#1
ffs1942 Member Join Date: December 14, 2010 Posts: 79	Emergency use of .308 in 30-06 Garand? Can the .308 be fired in a 30-06 M1?

March 20, 2013, 11:27 PM	#2
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	in some cases yes but it's highly recommended against... really tears up the throat and has potential for ruptured cases... during WWII GIs used 7.7 jap ammo in their guns, also very bad idea as 7.7 jap is 311 instead of 308... do not plan on ever doing this. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 21, 2013, 11:02 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	In the 1950s and 1960s the Navy had chamber inserts for their Garands. As was mentioned, the insert would occasionally come flying out with the ejected case. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 21, 2013, 11:04 AM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	Regarding Japanese 7.7 in the Garand, I've heard that this would, over time, cause problems with bending the operating rod as the Japanese powders resulted in port pressures that were too high. Don't know if it's true or not. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 21, 2013, 11:11 AM	#11
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	When the US Navy rebarreled a lot of Garands to 7.62 NATO for the San Diego Recruit Training Command's use on the range at Camp Elliott, once in a while the kid issuing ammo didn't check the rifle type he issued ammo for. Same thing at the Naval District matches across the country when both .30-06 and 7.62 Garands were used. In both instances, no reports of bad things happening to the rifle nor the shooter. Hundreds of NATO rounds were fired in 30 caliber chambers. Lots of neckless cases on the firing line was not something that was noticed by their shooters. I've stopped a few myself from continuing after noticing them and got them the correct ammo. Those chamber inserts were the most dangerous part of the whole thing. Few were tight enough fit (had to be driven in with a mallet pounding on a setting tool) to stay there. The USN quickly got rid of the barrels that had them and put 7.62 barrels in those Garands. I think there were a few that didn't get backwards converted and ended up at the CMP for sales with the 7.62 barreled M1's. I've heard of only two that came out at one of the local matches they were used in. I'd shoot 'em in an emergency and forget about it except for dragging the perpertrator out of the way to pick up the empty brass then calling the county medical examiner to come check out the perpertrator before bagging him. Last edited by Bart B.; March 21, 2013 at 11:21 AM.

March 21, 2013, 07:36 AM	#3
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	There used to be a guy who made inserts to allow shooting .308 in an '06. They worked okay for a while, but commonly would pull out during extraction of the fired case. I've no idea if they're still available, but I wouldn't use one. All in all, best to stay with the proper ammo. Plenty of '06 brass around.

March 21, 2013, 09:30 AM	#4
Orlando Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2009 Posts: 352	No not in a 30.06 chambered Garand

March 21, 2013, 09:51 AM	#5
alex0535 Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 908	This just seems like a really bad idea unless you want to do serious damage to the rife. .308 and .30-06 are really only similar on the diameter of the bullet. The chamber on a rifle is there for a reason. To give the outer surface of the case support. You load a .308 into a .30-06 chamber and there is going to be a substantial gap in the chamber that this bullet is going to have to jump across and into your barrel instead not having to jump across any gap because the cartridge is too short. Stand up an unfired .308 and a .30-06 next to each other, look at them. See the difference? One belongs in a .308 and the other belongs in a .30-06.

March 21, 2013, 10:39 AM	#6
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I'm trying to imagine any sort of modern 'emergency situation' that would call for the use of 308 in a Garand.

March 21, 2013, 10:44 AM	#7
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	You need to put the bayonet on the Garand and go for a vertical buttstroke or two. Since you are apparently planning for this emergency, you have plenty of time to go and get some 30.06 ammo.

March 21, 2013, 10:56 AM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Maybe I am about to cross the line between screaming "NO! NO!" and sounding like I recommend something. I do not recommend it, but 7.62 NATO can be fired in an M1 rifle with no problems and no bad effects. The case ends up looking like a rimless .45-70. Because the 7.62 is wider at the shoulder than the .30 is at the same point, the shorter case wedges itself into the chamber. It is nearly impossible to do that in a bolt action, but the closing power of the M1 is more than enough to force the 7.62 in and close the bolt. As to 7.7 Japanese in a .30-'06 chamber, the result is about the same except that the result is a short neck case. No special force is needed to get the shorter round to chamber, and even the Japanese clips work fine in a Model 1903 rifle. The .003" larger bullet has little or no effect and there are no signs of high pressure. (At normal pressure, a bullet becomes quite malleable, acting almost like it was made from Silly Putty, conforming to barrel dimensions, whether larger or smaller than the bullet itself.) Jim

March 21, 2013, 11:14 AM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I didn't try the 7.7 in an M1 rifle, only in an M1903A3, so I don't know about port pressures. I do know that that issue has been so wildly exaggerated that I am not sure what to believe any more. There has been a lot of scare stories (tens of thousands of Americans died in Vietnam with M1 op rods through their heads!) and a wealth of hype and misinformation from folks selling various gadgets to reduce or release gas cylinder pressure. Oddly, no one noticed this at the time; most folks thought the VC and NVA were responsible. And U.S. troops in VN didn't have M1 rifles, a small detail which also escaped the rumor mongers. Jim

March 21, 2013, 11:20 AM	#13
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	You will get higher pressures in a .30-06 chamber than the 7.7 gets in its own barrels simple 'cause its bullets are larger in diameter.

March 21, 2013, 01:00 PM	#14
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	DO NOT FIRE ANY AMMO OTHER THAN WHAT IS MARKED ON THE FIREARM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You cannot SAFELY fire 308 in a 30/06 chamber w/o an adapter of some sort. Where so you guys get these ideas???????????

March 21, 2013, 01:42 PM	#15
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	DO NOT FIRE ANY AMMO OTHER THAN WHAT IS MARKED ON THE FIREARM! OK, fine. We all promise to never fire and .38 Special ammo in our .357 magnum revolvers with their barrels stamped ".357 Magnum." And we'll also quit shooting .22 shorts in our rimfire rifles marked ".22 Long Rifle." Does the 7.62 NATO round qualify as a no-no in .308 Win. chambers found in barrels marked ".308 Win.", too, along with 5.56 NATO ammo in .223 Rem. chambers in barrels marked the same? Did I leave any other cartridge pair that's a no-no?

March 21, 2013, 02:34 PM	#16
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	You miss the point of my statement. Shall we say there are exceptions to every rule? The OP's question concerned a very dangerous incompatability in cartridges. In addtion, there were several absurd possible choices of interchangeability of ammo. Many newer firearms in 357 mag also list the 38 Sp as acceptable. Regarding the 22 rimfire, in many cases, NO you should not use shorts in a long rifle chambered firearm for functional reasons.

March 21, 2013, 03:41 PM	#17
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I use to run sniper schools, the NG guys used M1c/d's, the RA guys used the M21's. Both used white box, either M118 or M72. The guard guys were always grabbing the wrong ammo shooting 308 in the Garands. Couldn't hit crap but no problems other then that. The cases looked like 458 WM without the belt. I had to hire a special ammo guy to issue the right ammo..........dummies. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

March 21, 2013, 04:19 PM	#18
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	How bad is the emergency? How poor was preparation that you have on hand an M1 and clips but no .30-06; .308 ammunition and no .308 rifle? I think the zombies have already eaten your brain.

March 21, 2013, 04:28 PM	#19
Gunnutfn49 Member Join Date: January 3, 2013 Location: PR of Kalifornia Posts: 77	Nonononononononono __________________ "...and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."-Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan ...What he meant to add was, "unless, of course, all responsible citizens are armed to the teeth."

March 21, 2013, 08:00 PM	#21
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	"The OP's question concerned a very dangerous incompatability in cartridges." Actually, as far as cartridge swaps go, it is not particularly dangerous. As noted, the .308 will hold nicely into the chamber of many rifles, allowing it to be fired and extracted. Because the .308 is based on the .30-06 case, the head is fully supported upon firing, so there's virtually no danger of a case head failure filling the action with the very angry genie that lives amongst the powder grains. Because the .308 uses the same diameter bullet as the .30-06, there's virtually no danger of a spike in pressure bursting the action. In fact, pressure will be significantly decreased because of all of the extra space that has to be filled where there is no case at the front of the chamber. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 21, 2013, 08:40 PM	#22
David13 Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2012 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 243	"How bad is the emergency? How poor was preparation that you have on hand an M1 and clips but no .30-06; .308 ammunition and no .308 rifle? I think the zombies have already eaten your brain." Jim I think you have figured out the emergency. And the emergency has come and gone. dc

March 21, 2013, 08:52 PM	#24
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Can we bury the horse now, before it goes to smelling bad?

March 21, 2013, 09:02 PM	#25
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I really considered the question a hypothetical one from the start. But I have been playing gun games for a long time and checking out (with care) some of the things people say are impossible or will cause world-wide nuclear destruction, and so far I am in one piece (so, AFAIK, is the world, at least yet). I agree that as a general rule, Mobuck is correct. Another good general rule is not pointing a gun at anything we don't intend to shoot. But if you think about that, it becomes silly; every time I remove a gun from the safe, I am pointing it at a lot of things I am not going to shoot. If I put a loaded pistol in my holster, I will point it at the wall, the floor, and other things I sure don't want to put a hole in. Jim