Sporterized 1903

chris in va · December 31, 2013, 04:30 PM

Friend of mine has a 'sporterized' 1903 Springfield with a 308 plug and jeweled bolt. He hasn't fired it yet, but I looked at it last night and the bolt is quite loose when closed, and the safety doesn't work.

I advised him to get it checked out first, but any advice is appreciated.

Roughedge · December 31, 2013, 06:27 PM

Is the bolt loose front to back ? could be a pipe bomb in the making.

Gunplummer · January 1, 2014, 04:23 AM

I agree, not much room for error with the head and main case.

PetahW · January 1, 2014, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris in va

I advised him to get it checked out first

Words to live by - You're a better friend to him, than he'll ever know !

.

James K · January 1, 2014, 05:22 PM

By ".308 plug" do you mean that the chamber has been altered from .30-'06 to .308 Winchester by installing an adapter, or that a .308 plug gauge has been used to check the barrel dimensions or something else?

Jim

F. Guffey · January 3, 2014, 10:44 AM

1903 Springfield design. The bolt goes back and forth, not by design, but by default.

The Mauser bolt does not go forth, it does not go forth not by default but by design. the M1917 bolt does not go-forth by design, not by default.

Because I am not infatuated with head space gages I determine the length of the chamber based on the design. I can place a head space gage in an o3 and then determine the length of the chamber in thousandths. I can chamber a round in the chamber and determine the length of the chamber in thousandths. Just because the bolt in the 03 Springfield goes back and forth.

there is a concept of .000/zero, pulling the bolt back seats the lugs, when the lugs are seated the bolt face is at the rear most extreme position. Default design by accident, after the reloader has mastered the concept of zero on the 03 Springfield the reloader can measure the gap between the front of rear receiver ring and the rear of the 3rd lug called 'safety lug'. (rest) then chamber a head space gage, push the bolt forward and measure the gap again, the difference in the two readings indicates the length of the chamber if the reloader knows the length of the length of the gage from the shoulder/datum to the head of the gage.

OR! The reloader can use a sized case with bullet (no primer/powder) and accomplish the same task if they have the ability to measure the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case.

I have one rifle that has a field reject length chamber +.002, that means the chamber is longer than a minimum length/full length sized 30/06 case, I add .014" to the length of the case between the shoulder and case head, the difference in length between the chamber and case from the usual places is .002".

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · January 3, 2014, 11:01 AM

I could say "Think about it"

I was at the Market Hall gun show in Dallas when someone ask about a fix for his rifle. I ask him if he had been given a reason for his problem? Who has he talked to and the cost of repairs? And, then? I ask him "When did the problem began"". His answer brought me one of those3 'levity moments'. I could not answer his question without making it look like I was trying to make myself look good at a friends expense.

The proud owner of a 308 W chambered rifle wanted a 30/06 chamber, and, that is what he got, plus the problem, the 30/06 reamer will not clean up the 308 W chamber because the 308 W case is larger in diameter at the case body/shoulder juncture than the 30/06 chamber body is at that point when measured from the bolt face. the proud owner of the 308 chambered to 30/06 had a ring around the case body caused by an artifact left by the 308 chamber. I suggested going to Ackely Improved or 30 Gibbs.

Back to 'think about it' if the chamber was 30/06 and then plugged to shorten the chamber to 308 W every 308 case that is chambered is sized at the case body juncture or the chamber was reamed to 308 W, most pluged chambers were reamed, then there is the ideal the plug can be removed to restore the 30/06 chamber, now we are back to firing a 30/06 case in a chambrer that has part of the old 308 chamber causing a ring around the case when fired.

F. Guffey

Gunplummer · January 4, 2014, 12:00 AM

As usual, we have a lot of rambling nonsense posted. The '03 has no extractor relief cut in the barrel. If the distance between the bolt face and where the "cone" in the barrel supports the brass is greater than the length of the case head there could be a problem. Who knows if it was rebarreled or not? Get it checked if you are not familiar with it.

F. Guffey · January 5, 2014, 03:00 PM

As usual, we have a lot of rambling nonsense posted, Gunplumber claims the 03 Springfield does not have a cut in the barrel for the extractor. The 03and the M1917 must be indexed, if the barrel is not indexed the extractor hits the barrel, or the barrel can be installed but the bolt will not close because, again, the extractor hits the barrel.

And, that is the reason when setting the barrel back 1 thread must be removed (.100").

Measuring to the bottom of the cone? Most know the Springfield receiver seats on the shoulder at the end if the threads. When measuring from the extractor cut to the case head I find every Springfield barrel has .090" case head protrusion from the extractor cut to the case head.

F. Guffey

PetahW · January 5, 2014, 06:46 PM

.

IMO, the OP's friend's rifle has had a .308 sleeve/adaptor (like was used to adapt M1-garands to .7.62NATO) installed in his 1903/.30-06's chamber.

The OP already gave his friend the best advice: have a profesional check it out.

.

James K · January 5, 2014, 08:46 PM

"The '03 has no extractor relief cut in the barrel."

Hmmm. Sure about that?

Jim

gunsmithnicklas · January 5, 2014, 11:16 PM

i have a 1903 that was sporterized to a 410 gauge long before i bought.
paid 60 bucks as a beater to experiment on and found it was viable as a shotgun and others have done it many times.

the 1903 was a cheap longgun that was heavily experimented on in the first half of last century.

F. Guffey · January 5, 2014, 11:25 PM

"I advised him to get it checked out first, but any advice is appreciated"

PetahW. I would agree except someone suggested:

"Is the bolt loose front to back ? could be a pipe bomb in the making"

There is a chance someone outside of the choir is reading this thread. Then there a chance his friend takes the rifle to someone that has never heard of a 308W adapter kit for a 30/06 chamber. With the adapter there is additional free bore. Next would be the suggestion removing the plug would be an alternative solution.

F. Guffey

James K · January 6, 2014, 01:14 AM

Removing one of those plugs might be a solution, but if it was done the way the Navy did some of their M1's it might not be a good one. They cut V grooves in the chamber neck, pressed the adapters in, and then fired a couple of proof loads. Removing the adapter can be done, but the chamber is ruined.

Jim

F. Guffey · January 6, 2014, 09:19 AM

"With the adapter there is additional free bore. Next would be the suggestion removing the plug would be an alternative solution"

One more time, to chamber a 308 W into a 30/06 chamber the 308 W case is sized by the smaller diameter chamber. And that is the reason I did not agree with the advise "all you gotta do is take it to a smith".

"As usual, we have a lot of rambling nonsense posted. The '03 has no extractor relief cut in the barrel" Not my job to determine when the nonsense ends and begins.

If the barrel has a plug I would suggest the owner decide if he can live with the accuracy. His problems could began if the plug is removed.

F. Guffey

Gunplummer · January 6, 2014, 11:34 AM

Yes, I am sure there is no relief cut for the extractor other than the "Cone". I have used '03 barrels for other projects and unless someone messed with them, that is the way they are. The fact that the gun has a .308 sleeve in the chamber should tell you someone has already been playing with it. If you don't know, get it checked out. It is obvious that the original poster is not comfortable with technical data, so why fill his head with worthless horse@#$%?

Jim Watson · January 6, 2014, 12:44 PM

Pardon me for not digging mine out of the back of the case, but the drawing in DeHaas and advertisements from several vendors including Criterion clearly show an extractor cut in the 1903 barrel breech, right through the cone.
1917 and Krag, too.

Gunplummer · January 7, 2014, 12:17 AM

I stand corrected! I never rebarreled one because the '03 was reputed to be junk and I refused to work on them. I find it unbelievable that I probably bought over a half a dozen surplus barrels that were already threaded but had no extractor cut. Was that a normal way for the government contractors to supply them? Either way, it still makes for a dangerous situation if too much of the case is exposed.

F. Guffey · January 7, 2014, 09:13 AM

I have never unwrapped a new 03 replacement barrel that was not cut for the extractor. The front sight must be indexed.

I have heard others claim they knew something about unsupported case head from the 03 chamber. I have never found an 03 with as much case head protrusion as the 98 Type Mauser. The Mauser by design has .110", there is a plus and/or minus.

Any smith installing a barrel on an 03 or M1917 should be able to measure case head protrusion, I suggest they measure case head protrusion on the barrel removed, I do, I have never found a horror story. When installing a barrel on a 03 the smith should be able to determine the amount of case head protrusion before they install a barrel on an 03 receiver.

I have been told the 03 could have .175" case head protrusion. And I always ask if anyone knows the case head thickness of military 30/06 brass. Anyhow, military case head thickness if .200", That would mean the case head support would be .025", and then if anyone could decide how head space/chamber length fit into all of this. the case could have only .020" case head support on the perfect go-gage length chamber. After that, if case head crush was a factor the case could have everything hanging out and only the case body would have support.

Safety, all of my 30/06 Remington cases have a case head thickness of .260"+, the thick case head thickness adds to case head support.

Length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

Gunplummer · January 7, 2014, 12:32 PM

Government documented reports of failure is enough of a horror story for me and quite a few other people. You can have them, although I will say after chopping the front and rear off '03 barrels, they usually shot quite well.

F. Guffey · January 7, 2014, 12:49 PM

"it still makes for a dangerous situation if too much of the case is exposed"

I agree, back to the top, for and aft, the bolt on the 03 has travel forward and backward by default, the limiter to forward movement is the case or head space gage, the chamber length of the 03 can be measured in thousandths with a head space gage and or a modified case or as when installing the barrel to the receiver a smith can remove the firing pin and use a live round.

Backwards, the travel is limited by the bolt lugs seating in the receiver.

I have no less than 30 03A3 bolts, no firing pin assemble installed, then I have arsenal bolts, a different kind of bolt.

F. Guffey

December 31, 2013, 04:30 PM	#1
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Sporterized 1903 Friend of mine has a 'sporterized' 1903 Springfield with a 308 plug and jeweled bolt. He hasn't fired it yet, but I looked at it last night and the bolt is quite loose when closed, and the safety doesn't work. I advised him to get it checked out first, but any advice is appreciated.

December 31, 2013, 06:27 PM	#2
Roughedge Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Location: Monroe,NC Posts: 669	Is the bolt loose front to back ? could be a pipe bomb in the making. __________________ The man that die's with the most stuff win's!

January 3, 2014, 11:01 AM	#7
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	03 Springfield plug. I could say "Think about it" I was at the Market Hall gun show in Dallas when someone ask about a fix for his rifle. I ask him if he had been given a reason for his problem? Who has he talked to and the cost of repairs? And, then? I ask him "When did the problem began"". His answer brought me one of those3 'levity moments'. I could not answer his question without making it look like I was trying to make myself look good at a friends expense. The proud owner of a 308 W chambered rifle wanted a 30/06 chamber, and, that is what he got, plus the problem, the 30/06 reamer will not clean up the 308 W chamber because the 308 W case is larger in diameter at the case body/shoulder juncture than the 30/06 chamber body is at that point when measured from the bolt face. the proud owner of the 308 chambered to 30/06 had a ring around the case body caused by an artifact left by the 308 chamber. I suggested going to Ackely Improved or 30 Gibbs. Back to 'think about it' if the chamber was 30/06 and then plugged to shorten the chamber to 308 W every 308 case that is chambered is sized at the case body juncture or the chamber was reamed to 308 W, most pluged chambers were reamed, then there is the ideal the plug can be removed to restore the 30/06 chamber, now we are back to firing a 30/06 case in a chambrer that has part of the old 308 chamber causing a ring around the case when fired. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; January 3, 2014 at 11:04 AM. Reason: add ? ? ?

January 1, 2014, 04:23 AM	#3
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I agree, not much room for error with the head and main case.

January 1, 2014, 05:22 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	By ".308 plug" do you mean that the chamber has been altered from .30-'06 to .308 Winchester by installing an adapter, or that a .308 plug gauge has been used to check the barrel dimensions or something else? Jim

January 3, 2014, 10:44 AM	#6
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	1903 Springfield design. The bolt goes back and forth, not by design, but by default. The Mauser bolt does not go forth, it does not go forth not by default but by design. the M1917 bolt does not go-forth by design, not by default. Because I am not infatuated with head space gages I determine the length of the chamber based on the design. I can place a head space gage in an o3 and then determine the length of the chamber in thousandths. I can chamber a round in the chamber and determine the length of the chamber in thousandths. Just because the bolt in the 03 Springfield goes back and forth. there is a concept of .000/zero, pulling the bolt back seats the lugs, when the lugs are seated the bolt face is at the rear most extreme position. Default design by accident, after the reloader has mastered the concept of zero on the 03 Springfield the reloader can measure the gap between the front of rear receiver ring and the rear of the 3rd lug called 'safety lug'. (rest) then chamber a head space gage, push the bolt forward and measure the gap again, the difference in the two readings indicates the length of the chamber if the reloader knows the length of the length of the gage from the shoulder/datum to the head of the gage. OR! The reloader can use a sized case with bullet (no primer/powder) and accomplish the same task if they have the ability to measure the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case. I have one rifle that has a field reject length chamber +.002, that means the chamber is longer than a minimum length/full length sized 30/06 case, I add .014" to the length of the case between the shoulder and case head, the difference in length between the chamber and case from the usual places is .002". F. Guffey

January 4, 2014, 12:00 AM	#8
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	As usual, we have a lot of rambling nonsense posted. The '03 has no extractor relief cut in the barrel. If the distance between the bolt face and where the "cone" in the barrel supports the brass is greater than the length of the case head there could be a problem. Who knows if it was rebarreled or not? Get it checked if you are not familiar with it.

January 5, 2014, 03:00 PM	#9
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	As usual, we have a lot of rambling nonsense posted, Gunplumber claims the 03 Springfield does not have a cut in the barrel for the extractor. The 03and the M1917 must be indexed, if the barrel is not indexed the extractor hits the barrel, or the barrel can be installed but the bolt will not close because, again, the extractor hits the barrel. And, that is the reason when setting the barrel back 1 thread must be removed (.100"). Measuring to the bottom of the cone? Most know the Springfield receiver seats on the shoulder at the end if the threads. When measuring from the extractor cut to the case head I find every Springfield barrel has .090" case head protrusion from the extractor cut to the case head. F. Guffey

January 5, 2014, 06:46 PM	#10
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. IMO, the OP's friend's rifle has had a .308 sleeve/adaptor (like was used to adapt M1-garands to .7.62NATO) installed in his 1903/.30-06's chamber. The OP already gave his friend the best advice: have a profesional check it out. .

January 5, 2014, 08:46 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"The '03 has no extractor relief cut in the barrel." Hmmm. Sure about that? Jim

January 5, 2014, 11:16 PM	#12
gunsmithnicklas Junior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Posts: 1	i have a 1903 that was sporterized to a 410 gauge long before i bought. paid 60 bucks as a beater to experiment on and found it was viable as a shotgun and others have done it many times. the 1903 was a cheap longgun that was heavily experimented on in the first half of last century.

January 5, 2014, 11:25 PM	#13
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	"I advised him to get it checked out first, but any advice is appreciated" PetahW. I would agree except someone suggested: "Is the bolt loose front to back ? could be a pipe bomb in the making" There is a chance someone outside of the choir is reading this thread. Then there a chance his friend takes the rifle to someone that has never heard of a 308W adapter kit for a 30/06 chamber. With the adapter there is additional free bore. Next would be the suggestion removing the plug would be an alternative solution. F. Guffey

January 6, 2014, 01:14 AM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Removing one of those plugs might be a solution, but if it was done the way the Navy did some of their M1's it might not be a good one. They cut V grooves in the chamber neck, pressed the adapters in, and then fired a couple of proof loads. Removing the adapter can be done, but the chamber is ruined. Jim

January 6, 2014, 09:19 AM	#15
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	"With the adapter there is additional free bore. Next would be the suggestion removing the plug would be an alternative solution" One more time, to chamber a 308 W into a 30/06 chamber the 308 W case is sized by the smaller diameter chamber. And that is the reason I did not agree with the advise "all you gotta do is take it to a smith". "As usual, we have a lot of rambling nonsense posted. The '03 has no extractor relief cut in the barrel" Not my job to determine when the nonsense ends and begins. If the barrel has a plug I would suggest the owner decide if he can live with the accuracy. His problems could began if the plug is removed. F. Guffey

January 6, 2014, 11:34 AM	#16
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Yes, I am sure there is no relief cut for the extractor other than the "Cone". I have used '03 barrels for other projects and unless someone messed with them, that is the way they are. The fact that the gun has a .308 sleeve in the chamber should tell you someone has already been playing with it. If you don't know, get it checked out. It is obvious that the original poster is not comfortable with technical data, so why fill his head with worthless horse@#$%?

January 6, 2014, 12:44 PM	#17
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,568	Pardon me for not digging mine out of the back of the case, but the drawing in DeHaas and advertisements from several vendors including Criterion clearly show an extractor cut in the 1903 barrel breech, right through the cone. 1917 and Krag, too.

January 7, 2014, 12:17 AM	#18
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I stand corrected! I never rebarreled one because the '03 was reputed to be junk and I refused to work on them. I find it unbelievable that I probably bought over a half a dozen surplus barrels that were already threaded but had no extractor cut. Was that a normal way for the government contractors to supply them? Either way, it still makes for a dangerous situation if too much of the case is exposed.

January 7, 2014, 09:13 AM	#19
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I have never unwrapped a new 03 replacement barrel that was not cut for the extractor. The front sight must be indexed. I have heard others claim they knew something about unsupported case head from the 03 chamber. I have never found an 03 with as much case head protrusion as the 98 Type Mauser. The Mauser by design has .110", there is a plus and/or minus. Any smith installing a barrel on an 03 or M1917 should be able to measure case head protrusion, I suggest they measure case head protrusion on the barrel removed, I do, I have never found a horror story. When installing a barrel on a 03 the smith should be able to determine the amount of case head protrusion before they install a barrel on an 03 receiver. I have been told the 03 could have .175" case head protrusion. And I always ask if anyone knows the case head thickness of military 30/06 brass. Anyhow, military case head thickness if .200", That would mean the case head support would be .025", and then if anyone could decide how head space/chamber length fit into all of this. the case could have only .020" case head support on the perfect go-gage length chamber. After that, if case head crush was a factor the case could have everything hanging out and only the case body would have support. Safety, all of my 30/06 Remington cases have a case head thickness of .260"+, the thick case head thickness adds to case head support. Length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face. F. Guffey

January 7, 2014, 12:32 PM	#20
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Government documented reports of failure is enough of a horror story for me and quite a few other people. You can have them, although I will say after chopping the front and rear off '03 barrels, they usually shot quite well.

January 7, 2014, 12:49 PM	#21
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	"it still makes for a dangerous situation if too much of the case is exposed" I agree, back to the top, for and aft, the bolt on the 03 has travel forward and backward by default, the limiter to forward movement is the case or head space gage, the chamber length of the 03 can be measured in thousandths with a head space gage and or a modified case or as when installing the barrel to the receiver a smith can remove the firing pin and use a live round. Backwards, the travel is limited by the bolt lugs seating in the receiver. I have no less than 30 03A3 bolts, no firing pin assemble installed, then I have arsenal bolts, a different kind of bolt. F. Guffey