Which influences accuracy most?

[4runnerman]

Jim you are right. I do not shoot store ammo, never have. I also have no regular hunting rifles per say. I buy a rifle,I buy a die set the same day. I have 9 rifles now and none have ever seen a store round fired down them. That is the reason I got into reloading. I do maybe get to0 carried away with the accuracy part of shooting,but that is what I shoot for. I do not plink. Now rethinking-I do have a Savage in 223 and 243 that are the Axis. Both will shoot one hole at 100 yards also.

[Jimro]

Those Axis rifles are a very good buy, and Savage makes very good barrels for a commercial company.

I know one guy who couldn't get his Hog Hunter to group with anything heavier than 165gr bullets though. 155 and under and sub MOA easy for 5 shot groups.

Jimro

[cw308]

The question is, Which influences accuracy the most? You can work up a load for any distance from 100-1000 4runnerman and I, I feel answered the question without going off the subject.

[Metal god]

I feel each one will effect accuracy. Most attention will be in case prep, if your sloppy with any one of them it will effect your group size.

I disagree :

I bet I can grab a once fired cases . wipe them down with a rag size them with a standard Redding die, prime and charge them . Then seat the best match bullets for my rifle in them . I'll shoot circles around you at distance with you using the best prepped case in the world shooting light crappy soft point flat based bullets . Now don't for get you say case prep is most important so you don't get to pick the bullet you use , any bullet should do fine . After all case prep has more to do with accuracy then Bullet or powder after rifle and shooter . Right ? ( NOT ! )

Do me a favor . Take those best prepped cases you guys have been using that are shooting those .100 moa groups at 100yards and throw a crappy Remington FMJ on the top of those and let's see if you keep shooting those little tiny groups . haha

[4runnerman]

That is all true Metal, but then again you can have the best bullet and if you dont trim and pay attention to your neck tension, oal, you are going to have some very large groups also. Now maybe not at 100 yards, as I have always stayed with 100 yards is no good for working up a load that you might be shooting at 600 or more. I think what is trying to be said here is-All stages of loading are important, including bullet choice,powder and primer. Most any bullet good or bad can be made to shoot half way good in any rifle with the right work up and detail. It is only smart to grab good components to start with, but not a requirement. Not sure about you, but for me-I never got into reloading for the cost savings. I got into it for the accuracy part of it. I like to shoot extreme distances and when I get good at that distance-I move it back another 100 yards and start all over. I am very confident in my ability to shoot 1000 yards now.
Have dabbled at 1400 already.

[Damon555]

I read an article in Handloader magazine a few years back where the guy did some testing with match prepped brass and brass with no special prepping at all....After a substantial amount of testing his conclusions and data showed that there was no statistical difference....nada

I have tried all the little tricks with the brass too trying to improve accuracy and never noticed any measurable difference either.....So I quit doing it and have never looked back.

The bullet plays the biggest role in accuracy in my experience.

[4runnerman]

Damon- That could be very true for all me and you know, But when you go talk to the best shooters around they will tell you a much different story. They all use Lapua Brass, they all keep .002 neck tension, They weigh their brass. I guarantee you they don't do it because they have extra money to spend. I also read a article that showed that each step of brass prep could add 2% accuracy to your load. Now 2% is not that much but when you add all those 2% up it comes to something. I want every 2% i can gain when I go to a Match.

[Clark]

I would not doubt that there are accuracy rituals that yield 2%, that I will never be able to detect the difference with 5 shot groups at 100y.
With a big game rifle that is the difference between 1.50" and 1.53"?
No, that 2% is on some tiny 1/2 moa competitor or varmint rifle. So to my big game rifle, it would be the difference between 1.50" and 1.51".
If I shoot two groups and one is 1.25" and one is 1.75", I average them and say it is a 1.5" rifle. That 0.010" improvement from pixie dust on the brass will never be detected by such a crude instrument as me.
I would really love to, before I die, get my effective no wind hunting range out from 500 yards to 600 yards. That is my dream is to get the bullets consistently inside the 12" ring at 600 yards.
There may be one thing holding me back I will find, or I may have to take on a laundry list of additional accuracy rituals.

[Jimro]

Even M118, the original 173gr FMJBT with IMR4895, could hold 2 MOA at 600 from an accuracy rest in no wind.

I stopped worrying about getting one hole groups from a rested rifle a long time ago. I've never seen anyone make one hole groups from a sling (with iron sights). Bipod (with scope) yes, for three shots, but never for 20. Humans just can't hold a rifle consistently enough, which is why the benchrest game is used from a benchrest.

There exists a point of diminishing return on accuracy, and a good powder charge with a good bullet and a consistent primer seem to be the most important. Once you've got that, then I'd go through the whole brass prep ritual.

Jimro

[overthere]

#1 factor is the barrel. A bad barrel will not produce good accuracy no matter what you put through it while a great barrel can give ok accuracy with below-the-best components.

#2 is the projectile. The best projectiles can produce great accuracy with different powders and different charge weights. Substandard bullets will significantly drag down accuracy no matter how good a barrel.

#3 is determining a good powder / charge weight combination for a given projectile, in your rifle.

Brass prep, bullet pointing, tweaking seating depths, weight sorting bullets and brass, base-to-ogive sorting bullets etc. does make a difference too but the return is much smaller than for the 3 above and also makes more difference at longer distances (600 - 1000 yards depending on cartridge).

In terms of shooter vs rifle, the rifle is more important than the shooter, within reason. If shooting for score, an OK shooter with a .75 MOA capable rifle / load will likely beat a great shooter with a 2 MOA rifle /load in calm conditions.

[schmellba99]

Is it the condition of the case?
Is it the bullet used?
Is it the powder?
Or COAL?

Based on what you actually asked, here are my meager thoughts:


1. Bullets - you can do everything else absolutely perfect, but if the barrel simply doesn't like the projectiles, you won't get good groups. Simple as that.

2. Powder selection and charge weight - consistency is really the key here, and I do not believe that it needs to be at a .02 grain accuracy level on the charge weight to get near identical performance. Some will argue that it does. Powder selection is also important, more because you need a rifle powder for a rifle load (safety), but some guns will prefer a type of powder over another.

(Not Listed) - Primers - the right type of primer for the powder can make a difference.

3. OAL - with the exception of specific types of bullets (VLD's, for example), really kind of overrated. Most shooters won't be able to tell the difference between .003" off the lands or .10" off the lands (assuming every other aspect is the same between rounds). The biggest factor is consistency between rounds.

4. Case prep - largely overrated metric. Some swear that you need to do X or Y or Z method of case prep to get acceptable accuracy, but it has been proven more times over than not that X or Y or Z aren't required (I still trim, chamfer, debur, neck turn and a few others personally because I like consistency). Will doing so make a difference? Sure it will, but I'd bet that you'd be hard pressed to find measurable differences between rounds that have perfectly prepped brass versus so-so prepped brass out of the vast majority of rifles.

The rest of the thread is opinion on a whole lot of other things, and basically arguments on the same thing from different angles and people justifying why the do X, Y or Z to their reloads. Yes, all of them will make some difference, but the degree of difference is significant between them.

[cw308]

I have been reloading for 25+ years, just for the sport of it. for the past 7 years I reload for accuracy. Learning different things along the way, changed my RCBS F/L die to F/L Redding S type bushing dies. will adjust neck tension & headspace, two important things in accuracy. Case prep to me is alittle more involved then most have stated. This is getting like, who cleans their barrels after shooting. I do

[Metal god]

Let me ask this question

If you could only have one which would you rather have ,

1) the perfectly prepped cases for your rifle ?

2) the perfect bullet for your rifle ?

[4runnerman]

Metal- At 100 yards I dont think either matter to much. Every bullet no matter how bad,can be made to shoot so so accurate in every rifle. Staying in the right twist rate. So now this question, Best bullet you can get, Say 308 for ease.
You have 12 bullets, Cases were never done so you have 12 bullets with COAL of 2.65 to 2.91. Neck tension is all over the place. Now tell me how accurate those rounds are going to be. Your group is going to be as bad as the guy with bad bullets. Now having a good bullet to start with is very important, but so is case prep, rifle, shooter, rest,trigger control, primer,powder, col, ect,ect.
I don't say one is more important then the other, They all are very important.
Now Minute of deer would be less important for sure. They must all come together to shoot great. Case in point- Serria Match bullets. Berger are supposed to be better, Lapua are supposed to be better, 2 or 3 others I can not right now remember their names( you Probably know) But yet Serria bullets win more matches every year. Is it because more people use Serria?. Is it because of case prep, Is it because Serria is better?. I have e mailed Serria this year to see if they will sponsor my matches this year, Not holding my breath, but sure would be proud to get picked.

[cw308]

4runnerman, good luck this year on your matches. You run with the big boys, I'm a good shooter but not in that class. From your posts we are on the same page. Again Good luck Chris

[bfoosh006]

The bullet has the most impact on accuracy.

Ultimately, the ingredient from a reload that does the flying... will make the most difference.

A perfect example is Fed. 50gr Tipped Varmint.

Loaded in the same brass as Amer. Eagle XM / .223 55gr FMJ

Probably with the same type of propellant.

Sold for a dollar more then XM 193 per 20 .... yet will shoot 1 MOA all day long at 100 yds.

[jasonjeep]

Practice!!! After ten years of 12 different calibers I've mastered them all!! And and a half million bullets to practice with

[4runnerman]

Thanks CW- I run with the big boys, but i don't run as fast as them. Still have lots to learn.

[cw308]

Don't we all.

[RaySendero]

Metal god asked:


If you could only have one which would you rather have ,

1) the perfectly prepped cases for your rifle ?

2) the perfect bullet for your rifle ?

Metal, IME (& both my posts have steered the thinking in this direction) that the issues you and James are asking about are so far down the accuracy foodchain that realistically you may seldom ever get down the list that far. Also on your question - Its really not and either or. I believe if there was such a thing as the perfect bullet and case any reloader would choose both.

Clark's accuracy list is a good example. There are so many factors regarding the rifle, the shooter and the consistency of all our reloads, that the 2 items your asking about come into play way down on any list of improved accuracy. Plus, Its not just an opinion - I read years of experience behind Clark's list and my experience is similar to that.

Since your comparing "perfects" Think of it this way:
The perfect bullet and case prep compared to
The perfectly accurate rifle.

I'd take the rifle every time and work-up (experiment , etc.) to produce a good reload that a "perfect rifle" will like.

Wouldn't you ?

[F. Guffey]

I'd take the rifle every time and work-up (experiment , etc.) to produce a good reload that a "perfect rifle" will like.

Wouldn't you ?

I choose the rifle, no matter what bullet etc. I choose time, time is a factor.

F. Guffey

[Pond, James Pond]

I'd take the rifle every time and work-up (experiment , etc.) to produce a good reload that a "perfect rifle" will like.

Wouldn't you ?

I don't know how to put it any more simply than I already have... but let's try again.

All these posts regarding rifle and training above all else continue to miss the point.

Of course they're paramount. We reload to shoot and we usually shoot to improve so training is a given.

But... when a load doesn't shoot well in a rifle, let's say the best rifle we can afford, we don't run out and buy a new, better, rifle. We tweak our loads.

Hence why I'm focussing on reloading components and technique.

And, above all else, this was simply a questioning on the concept of reloading, not because I plan to somehow focus on one and only one component from now on.

However, I spend hours on case prep and charge weight and minutes on bullet seating so last time I just became curious as to whether the ratio of time spent on each was proportional to the benefits they each bring to the table.

[Metal god]

Is it the condition of the case?
Is it the bullet used?
Is it the powder?
Or COAL?

There are only 4 things on the chain to consider . That's all that was asked in the OP . Then later clarified not to include the rifle or shooter . 4runnerman brought up the point of having wildly different case prep and see how that goes . I believe the way he explained that case prep would cause problems . How ever the re-loader would need to use multiple neck bushings and change the seating die often as well as other things to have that inconsistent of case prep . That's not realistic for even the most noob of reloaders . That's why I said (I bet I can grab a once fired cases . wipe them down with a rag size them with a standard Redding die, prime and charge them . Then seat the best match bullets for my rifle in them ) Because that's about as minimum one can do . my point was to load them per the manuals specs . One standard die sizing them all and seated to what ever the book recommends .

I have the ability to do very different case prep from case to case pretty easy with my bushing dies , comp shell holders and micrometer seating dies . I even have a bunch of cheap Taiwan NATO stamped brass I can use . When I have some extra time I'll go ahead and do some testing . It may be awhile but I'll put it on the list

[F. Guffey]

Pond, James Pond, it is always something I do not understand, I accept that.

In the real world a builder of one very fine rifle called and said he had problems with a magnificent rifle. He explained he had taken the rifle to smiths with bore scopes and all the tools necessary to find the problem. And I listened.

When he finished he ask me where I would start when trouble shooting. I explained I would make test cases. I would start with drilling out the flash hold on at least 5 fired cases. I explained to him I would neck size the cases and then seat bullets of different weight. After seating the bullets 'short' I would remove the bolt then chamber a test case and with a cleaning rod I would push the bullet out to the rifling to determine free bore.

The rifle was a 7mm Wildcat, when I pushed a 170 grain bullet out of the case it came out of the case and traveled down the throat before contacting the rifling. The free bore could not be cleaned up with a 300 Weatherby length case. He wanted to know what caused the long throat. I said "I don't know".

What did the rifle like? We loaded 100 rounds with different powders and weight of bullets etc. We went to the range, to me, strange. The rifle had a small window of accuracy, more powder, less powder caused the groups to open up. Heavier bullets, lighter bullets the accuracy started spreading.

All he wanted from me was help in determining 'what happened', About the same time he built the rifle he built 4 others, the accuracy of the other 4 rifles shot anything, the owners had pet loads and could explain how they decided on 'their pet loads'.

F. Guffey

[Pond, James Pond]

F. Guffey: I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say with the 7mm wildcat anecdote unless it is that in the case of that rifle bullet weight and charge weight had the greatest effect on accuracy.

Is that what you are saying?