If law permitted CCW on Airlines with a 8 hour training course would you do it?

[Locoweed]

So if I'm a terrorist, especially a domestic one, I would just take the course and then carry my handgun onto the airplane for nefarious deeds. No way is this a good idea. And in the event of trouble you jump out of your seat with your pistol drawn and then the sky marshal shoots you down thinking you are one of the bad guys.

[Nanuk]

My choice was not there. I fly now only because I need to for work and I fly armed. Once I retire I do not plan on flying anymore.

Everything is overpriced and everybody is rude. The seats are too cramped and the planes stink, everyone who is sick shares it with everyone else on the plane.

[BGutzman]

So if I'm a terrorist, especially a domestic one, I would just take the course and then carry my handgun onto the airplane for nefarious deeds.

And the lawful carrier on the plane punches your ticket.... Exactly my point...

[Ralgha]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

My choice was not there. I fly now only because I need to for work and I fly armed. Once I retire I do not plan on flying anymore.

Everything is overpriced and everybody is rude. The seats are too cramped and the planes stink, everyone who is sick shares it with everyone else on the plane.

Overpriced? Compare the price of tickets now and 20 years ago, they haven't changed. The price of tickets now isn't enough to cover the cost of the flight. Employees are rude because the companies treat them like crap, the planes stink because the ticket price doesn't provide enough money to clean it every leg.

Most of the airline woes (outside of security) boil down to air travel being underpriced, not overpriced.

[saltydog452]

I'd take the GreyDog.

Better class of people and there is no charge for enterainment.

salty

[praetorian97]

I respectly disagree Ralgha.

I travel 10 days a month for work on average. So I would say I have extensive flying experience.

I have seen rates vary so much that there is definite fluff. Just recently I had a business trip scheduled. I had to push it back a week. I had them reschedule the same exact flights a week later and they were $600 more on top of the $400 already. That didnt include the "Change Flight" fee.

As far as you pointing out people being rude is cause they are treated like crap? So what you are saying is if my boss is a jerk to me. That justifies me treating you like crap?

If your boss/company is treating you badly, start looking for another job. Dont take it out on people that have nothing to do with it.

[Ralgha]

I'm a pilot for an airline. I fly 4+ days a week, 4+ flights a day. I see them cancel service to cities with consistent nearly full loads because they are losing money on them. A few examples of expensive tickets mean nothing.

I am looking for another job, many in my position can't due to lack of other experience or other reasons. Changing airlines is not always an option because you start over at the bottom.

I could describe what it's like, but most people probably don't care. I personally don't hate my job, or my company, but they are not making me want to stay.

[praetorian97]

I won't argue Pilots aren't treated as well as they were in past. The blame should be on the suits above and not the passengers looking for a good deal on a flight.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The lawful carrier vs. the terrorist sound great except that we've made the point that you might get a fairly large number of terrorists on the plane and Johnny J-Frame isn't going to be that successful.

Also, the terrorists start by grabbing a person or two and the rest draw down on the passengers. What you gonna do then?

[shortwave]

And the lawful carrier on the plane punches your ticket...Exactly my point...

In your wildest imagination, do you really think it would be that simple? .

Still waiting on those who are in favor of cc'ing on airlines.... what plans you have to insuring no legal cc'er thats a hijacker will board your planes in the first place???

[BGutzman]

Given my level of training and experience..... yes

Have you ever been under live fire? Its not rocket science....

what plans you have to insuring no legal cc'er thats a hijacker will board your planes in the first place???

Well unless the mass of CCW carriers goes nuts I would hope we would have at least one or two patriots on the plane.

Funny no one screens our bus passengers and they could load those babys up with BGs.....

[shortwave]

Given my level of training and experience...yes

...and do you feel the rest of the cc'ing world that may be on the same plane as you and your family have the same training/experience as you... that they have all experienced live fire and wouldn't freak out.

Before answering that, think about the possibility of one of the hijackers having a loved one of yours using them as a shield, you are halfway down the isle of the plane with to many people between you and hijacker/loved one and there are 300 other armed passengers on board. How confident would you be that these other armed passengers would have your experience...enough to trust the life of your loved one with??

Its not rocket science

Unless perhaps the above scenario was to happen. Then rocket science would be a bit trivial.

How comfortable or sure would you be even with your experience in that scenario?

[BGutzman]

...and do you feel the rest of the cc'ing world that may be on the same plane as you and your family have the same training/experience as you... that they have all experienced live fire and wouldn't freak out.

Before answering that, think about the possibility of one of the hijackers having a loved one of yours using them as a shield, you are halfway down the isle of the plane with to many people between you and hijacker/loved one and there are 300 other armed passengers on board. How confident would you be that these other armed passengers would have your experience...enough to trust the life of your loved one with??

I cant speak for the level of competence of the average CCW person but if the plane is going to be shot down because of the situation then even a horrible shot CCW person would probably be preferable to the passengers than 100% chance of death.

I know what I can do and what I cant do with a bullet and in the situation that it was my loved one then I wouldnt present until the opportunity was reasonably favorable. I am certainly not Rambo but Im not Joe Blow at shooting either.....

Ultimately even if every CCW person on the plane was a terrible shot one would hope they would understand their individual limitations and only act if and when they felt they could contribute to the successful end of the situation.

The first thing one learns as a leader on the ground is situational awareness and that if you dont have it you tend to loose the battle quickly. Of course most CCW people wont have the training but does that negate the right to self defense? I totally get that a hand to hand approach may be the more desirable approach but many people arent physically able to contemplate that avenue due to health, age or experience....

[MLeake]

BGutzman, my guess is that your live-fire experience involved unit vs improvised attack/ambush scenarios, since IIRC you only recently retired, and were not around for VietNam.

Defending a FOB, you aren't shooting around your buddies.

Defending a convoy, you aren't shooting around your buddies, though if you are a vehicle gunner you may be shooting over their heads.

Clearing a building, you are normally working with a team, and know where your guys are.

When was your last experience at engaging a bad guy, on the far side of a tight cluster of unarmed friendlies?

That's the kind of experience and training you'd need for an airliner scenario, and only a very small few get that training.

[TylerD45ACP]

I would in a heartbeat, even if they checked up on you often. I would feel so much safer on a plane carrying and knowing other citizens could be carrying. I think there should be plenty of rules though I dont know what they would be. But, I do believe everyone should have to use Frangible ammo because off risk of hull rupture. That could cause problems, however the plane would not tear open like a can if it did happen. Maybe a Basketball size hole at MOST and that is pushing it. They problem is 38,000ft. is a little short on oxygen .

[TXGunNut]

I've taken the course for peace officers flying armed and it was quite interesting. It was only for purposes of transporting prisoners, I couldn't fly armed under any other circumstances. The risk of blowing a hole in the plane and having it suddenly depressurize wasn't the big hazard we thought it was, they seemed more concerned with fire hazards.
I think the big draw of flying armed for qualified individuals is not having to check the firearm in a bag and risk losing a carry gun to a criminal. The possibilty of actually needing a firearm on an airplane are so remote I wonder why I even consider possible scenarios. Retrieving a firearm from my checked bags and getting "dressed" in a rental car office or baggage terminal bathroom is a real PITA.
I don't fly enough to consider it but the idea has merit.....and zero chance of actually happening, IMHO. Just an interesting idea.

[JohnKSa]

But, I do believe everyone should have to use Frangible ammo because off risk of hull rupture. Maybe a Basketball size hole at MOST and that is pushing it. They problem is 38,000ft. is a little short on oxygen.

A bullet through the hull makes a bullet hole--nothing more is likely. The pressurization system is more than capable of dealing with a bullet hole--even several bullet holes. Planes are not nearly as air-tight as most folks think. The pressurization system is regulated by a large outflow valves (two valves in some designs) that can be opened wider if the pressure rises too high or closed a bit to compensate for leaks or low pressure.

[TylerD45ACP]

:Thanks for the info JohnKSa I figured it wouldnt make a big hole. I just have never seen it happen so cant judge what it would look like. I bet it would be just a hole though like you said. It might not even make it through the hull in some spots. I didnt realize all that about the pressurization system cool info. Well I guess you could just use standard JHP's but frangible might be a good idea.

[MLeake]

Tyler, please see post #118. The pressurization issue has been gone into in some detail, by myself among others.

Ok, for those who think carrying on an airliner would be a wise choice, try this next time you go to a range where you can do more than stand behind a line and shoot a single target:

Set up several rows of silhouettes, 3 left side, an aisle space, and 3 right side. Mark them all with big red X's. These are passengers, not targets.

Next, set up a target or two.

Past the target(s), set up several more rows of silhouettes, 3 left, 3 right.

Now, set yourself up in a chair. Put chairs to either side of you. Put suitcases in the chairs, to represent obese travelers to left and right.

Try to engage your targets. Do not hit any red X silhouettes between yourself and the targets. Do not hit any red X silhouettes beyond yourself and the targets.

Have fun with this. (We do this kind of thing in IDPA... it is actually fun. It is not easy, and that's without any stress thrown in.)

After doing this, give an honest assessment of whether you want to see people trying it, in a true threat environment, with only a day's worth of training.

[rodfac]

And .... to expand on Mleake's excellent discussion points....while hitting the bad guys, keep any over penetrative rounds and/or misses from hitting the cockpit bulkhead (it's full of circuit breakers that control vital equipment), not to mention the guys doing the flying, control wires, fuel bladders, engines, hydraulic and pneumatic lines etc etc etc.

And while doing all that, be aware that rats travel in packs...there is a good likelihood that the BG you're shooting at, probably has buddies elsewhere on the plane...

The solution for terrorists on commercial aircraft is: keep them off...search the baggage, profile the passengers, do the job that we all know is necessary...anything short of that is not going to work.

Rodfac....Flew for: USAF, Braniff, Air Niagara, People Express, Continental, and UPS. Yep...it was an interesting and tumultuous career.

[tyme]

Originally Posted by praetorian97

Didnt read the entire article. But wanted to throw my .02 in.

Even after an 8 hour course there are still people out there I dont think should own guns.

Watch these two videos. If I got shot by some over achiever there may a problem with me not returning fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLN6_s66wTg

A handful of students, who are probably under 21 or for other reasons have not obtained a ccw permit (at least not that I saw reported, although I was not devoting my full attention to the videos), are selected on the basis that they wanted free gun training, offered not by a well-known training instructor but by the local PD. In that artificially constructed scenario where those gun trainees are put in a worst-case active shooter situation in a full classroom, the best the news media can come up with is that they weren't able to prevent themselves from getting killed and they missed a few times?

And while yes, CCWers should be accountable for every round they fire, if heaven forbid an innocent is shot and killed in a scenario with an active shooter, the CCWer might be held civilly liable, but in states with the felony murder rule at least, or even merely relying on the competing harms doctrine, it would be hard to convict the CCWer of some homicide charge. Where the felony murder rule is in effect, the DA gets a scalp to pin the homicide on, so there's little incentive politically to go after the CCWer unless the DA is anti-gun or unless there's some horrible mistake on the CCWer's part that would put his or her actions beyond what was reasonable, and lose him or her sympathy with a jury.

CCW advocates also believe in better training for everyone. What they don't advocate is the government mandating that training as a condition of being allowed to CCW, arbitrary standards based on the idea that every CCWer needs to be able to handle the depicted scenario without getting shot and without missing. I'd be surprised if one in 5 ordinary (non-SWAT) police officers or feds would be able to do that.

If there's any doubt as to the motives or trustworthiness of the people appearing in those videos, please note that that's the Violence Policy Center's youtube channel. The entire scenario was BS, because the (fake) perp was a police officer with weapons training. Compare that to someone like Seung-Hui Cho who had just recently obtained the guns he used, and it's much more likely that any of the students would have been able to disable him.


--Main topic--

I'm ambivalent about CCW on airplanes. Remember the news media tests years ago trying to sneak guns onto airplanes? The TSA's success rate detecting guns wasn't very good. Even if the detection rate is better these days, a dedicated terrorist group with more than few recruits could get someone with a gun onto an airplane eventually, if they wanted to. An armed terrorist on board a flying sardine can, with a small chance on domestic flights that there's an armed LEO on board. Furthermore the group could put an additional unarmed recruit on each attempt, whose purpose would be to create a ruckus and draw out an air marshal if there is one, then have the armed "teammate", if you will, take action.

However, I'm inclined to say the policy of only LEOs-with-special-privileges carrying on planes should continue. Commercial passenger plane hijackings are rare. It is improbable that another 9/11 could occur, even with armed terrorists, since cockpits are harder to get into, passengers are less likely to sit like lambs in the event of a hijacking, and pilots are better prepared and trained (whether or not they have guns in the cockpit) to deal with those situations. Finally, the military will get fighters in the air faster, and where airliners are off course and behaving strangely, assuming they can be intercepted, they will be shot down before reaching major population centers.

I think every terrorist organization with a detectable level of collective brain activity will have figured out by now that even in the best case scenario of getting multiple blade or firearm-armed terrorists onto a plane, the probability of a successful plane-meet-building attack is just about zero, mainly because, even ignoring pilot actions and military actions, other passengers simply will not stand for it, even if they risk injury trying to disarm the terrorists.

The issue really is this: Take the estimated yearly average of passenger injuries and deaths while disarming would-be terrorists, and compare it to the estimated yearly average of passengers getting injured or killed due to CCW fubars... air rage, mall ninjas treating agitated passengers as terrorists, negligent discharges... and when something did happen (and it would), it would not only kill the plane ccw policy instantly, it would not only put all the pro-gun politicians who supported plane ccw on political death row; no, beyond all that, the anti-gunners would use the incident(s) to whip naive people into a frenzy of anti-gun hatred that would set back other pro-gun initiatives.

[shortwave]

Sorry, DP

[shortwave]

MLeake,

The only additional thing I would add to your fun excersize to put things more into a real life prospective with the topic at hand would be to put a friendly silhouette of a hostage, pressed against your BG target, making your BG target very small.

I've ran many combat/house clearing drills set up simulating hostage situations ....but until you run a few and hit a few friendly's, then start correlating your drills with real life possible situations and knowing you just shot ' little Johnny ' instead of BG, its fairly easy to sit back and say " I can do that". Also remember after you've opened up and shot 'little Johnny' instead of intended BG, you've just pulled the pin for massive casualties. Especially if there's more than one BG.
Also noting, the course's I've ran were not set up with as nearly as many people crammed into such tight quarters as you would find on a plane.

The psycological aspect alone of the most extreme trained person in this kind of scenario, if he would be facing a hostage situation where your facing a BG with say, a kid looking at you crying in hysteria is something many regularly trained LEO's just couldn't take. Let alone the average ccw holder.

What it boils down to is: are you good enough to make that shot.... and do you have confidence that everyone carrying on that plane is also competent of making that shot under those extreme circumstances??
Cause remember the terrorist may just have your loved one as hostage.

I know a few and have witnessed, first hand, the training of some of our state,county and city SWAT LEO's. Not only the physical training aspects but the mental and negotiating training as well. Which CAN be a better weapon than a gun. Given the right situation.

I can tell you that every LEO is just not cut out mentally for the pressure of some of these special units.

The mental stress alone is incredible and can age a fella fairly quickly.

I " Thank " those that are for the incredible job they do.

I just don't see alot of cc people handling this kind of situation in as close quarters as a plane would be, very well.

[TylerD45ACP]

Thanks MrLeake and shortwave for your ideas on training. I am going to try that out when I get a chance what you have reccommended. Also I would lay low on a plane if I had a weapon. Even if the people were going crazy I would just try to sit there and clock the situation as well as possible.

[wayneinFL]

Still waiting on those who are in favor of cc'ing on airlines.... what plans you have to insuring no legal cc'er thats a hijacker will board your planes in the first place???

What plans to you have to ensure a hijacker isn't boarding a plane now? They're still out there. We're to the point that we have to check underneath everyone's balls for a weapon. The next step is that someone sticks a bomb up his ass, and we have to do a cavity search on everyone who boards a plane.

And let me ask my question again, because it was asked in earnest.

To those of who who oppose carrying on airlines because they're too crowded: What other places do you think are too crowded?

Buses and college classrooms are crowded, too. Are these off limits?

Of course there is an off chance that someone besides a terrorist could be shot by accident, by a cop or someone CCWing. On airliners, buses, or in college classrooms.

On an airplane, the other alternative is a terrrorist killing everyone on the plane by crashing it, or the government shooting it down and killing everyone to avoid hitting the plane reaching a target. In that case, more than any other, I'll take a few people shot by accident to save the entire airliner any day.