Giving 308 Win a try

QuarterHorse · November 22, 2013, 09:40 PM

With wanting to gain some more accuracy and start tailoring my loads for hunting I thought why not.

I snagged some Berger VLD 168's, Varget, and Remington primers (didn't have the Winchesters I was after). Waiting for my dies to show up and I'll start working some loads in.

Going to be going through my Savage mod 11 with inexpensive glass on top for now. Will be bedding the stock synthetic action, upgrading glass, and upgrading to an SSS trigger soon.

Primary goal will be 3/4 moa and able to take game out to 500 yards.

4runnerman · November 22, 2013, 09:44 PM

Should not be a problem, or less of a problem then it will be getting anything from SSS

. The 308 is a very easy rifle to load for. Un countable loads will work in it and powders from one end to the other will work.

Try some Serria 155 Palmas and also the 175 match bullets.

Jeff2131 · November 22, 2013, 10:53 PM

I reload .308's and use 180gr hornady BTBT, imr4320, and cci primers. I have a ruger m77 markII with a very basic bushnell 3-9x40mm on top. Nothing fancy for glass. I dont hunt but i love hitting a consistant 1" at 100-150yards. Never tried that load on a further range so idk what the results would be at 400-500 yards. But i can tell you, i love that load, meters very well, and is a mid range burn rate. Dont quote me, but if i remember correctly, with out running out to the garage, its a 46.5-47gr charge.

QuarterHorse · November 22, 2013, 11:02 PM

Oh yeah, there's a TON of info out there on the .308. I was originally going to snag some 165 hpbt Game kings but they only had the spritzer in stock. I read the hpbt was a little nicer for what I'm wanting so I went with the VLD's that they had in stock.

Probably going to try some of the Barnes TTSX bullets in a lighter weight, say 150 or lighter. From the reading I've done they like to be pushed a little faster to get them to open up on game.

Should be fun, when I get things rolling I will update the thread.

Jerry45 · November 23, 2013, 01:21 AM

With the 168s try 0.005 off the lands and 44.0 gr. Varget. Both my 308s love that. With the SGK165 try same off the lands with 45.0 varget. The 168s and 165 shoot to the same POI withe those loads. With 168 SGK and 165 SGK you should be able to get 1/2 MOA or better. Of course your milage may vary.

cookie5 · November 23, 2013, 09:33 PM

308 and 30/06 with 168 match bullets are almost like accuracy magic.

QuarterHorse · November 24, 2013, 02:14 PM

Thanks for all of the replies fellas. I'm pretty excited to get this rig going. I think I'm going to be bedding the action while I'm waiting for my dies to get here as well. We'll see how it goes.

I think I'll see what 165/168 combo works well and then I may try the Berger VLD 210's for fun too. I've read a LOT of people like 'em but I doubt they fit in my magazine.

QuarterHorse · December 11, 2013, 10:37 PM

Well I got the rifle bedded and got my 1st run of .308 done. I need to purchase a new powder measure tool as my Lee double disc kit will only throw 43gr of Varget. I want to load up to 46gr in .5 increments but I'm maxed out right now. I have a COAL of 2.800 with one oops of 2.745. So I have a total of 6 loaded up so far. I need to re-zero the rifle with some factory ammo and will then see how these group unless I get my new powder measure before I get to the range and will run a few more batches for a comparo.

These sure are Purdy........

QuarterHorse · December 15, 2013, 03:15 PM

Well I had some spare time today and went out and bought the Lee Perfect Powder Measure. I couldn't justify spending 3 times the money on what is basically the same thing before spending 10+ times the money on an electronic one. All the reading I've done says that with what powder I'm using it for I should be fine.

Now, onto my next hurdle. I acquired some CBC brass with crimped primers. I know some of you are probably laughing, well, yes, I broke my de-priming pin trying to push the crimped primer out. After some cursing I just put my stuff away and will be ordering a new one from Lee.

My question being how the hell do you de-prime these cases and am I going to have to ream these out after they're de-primed? It looks like they were staked on 3 sides!

Anyway, thanks for following. Once I get my new de-priming pin I'll be doing from 43-45 grains of Varget in .5 intervals and seeing how they shoot. I plan on cleaning the barrel after each set of 5 so I'm on the same playing field at the range.

ncrypt · December 15, 2013, 05:47 PM

I had the same problem getting the right charge for my 308 loads. I divided everything by three and just do three drops for powder. I use a charge bar, since it's easier to get exactly what you want, but I'm sure one disc will get you there too. Its stays surprisingly accurate and you keep everything on the turret. I use the Lee Classic.

Bart B. · December 15, 2013, 05:49 PM

Quarterhorse, I think you'll be on a more level playing field if you don't clean the barrel between each groups shooting. First, if it's a factory barrel, put 5 rounds through the barrel to condition it for best accuracy. Then shoot your test groups but don't clean between them.

Jeff2131 · December 15, 2013, 06:03 PM

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm...037BAG&src=sim

Hurry hurry hurry!

Jerry45 · December 15, 2013, 07:30 PM

Too keep from braking de-priming pins back the pin out until it sticks out just far enough to "barley" get the primer out of the pocket. The farther out you have the pin the more prone it is to bend / brake. I've de-primed many crimped .223s using my RCBS die. I broke one pin the first time I tried. I backed the pin out and haven't broken another, (knock on wood).

As Bart says, don't clean between shots when doing load development. What I do with a new barrel is load up 30 rounds of whatever powder charge and bulled depth. Doesn't really matter as they are just for brake-in and not load development. The only reason I do a brake-in is it makes it easier, for me anyway, to clean in the long run. Fire one clean fire one clean for ten shots. Shoot five clean, shoot five clean. This was recommended to me by my smith (a master bench-rest shooter). Seems to work! Then shoot two to foul the boar. You can also site your rifle in while doing the brake-in. Shoot one well place shot at 25 yards. Hold the cross hairs on the center of the bulls-eye. Without moving the rifle get someone to dial the scope so the cross-hairs are centered on the bullet hole. You'll then be on paper at 100 yards and you won't waist ammo just truing to get on paper. Fire three using the same sighting process to get POA to = POI at 100 or whatever range you're going to do your load development. Then start load development.

Others may have a "better way" but that worked well for me with the two rifles I had built.

QuarterHorse · December 15, 2013, 07:58 PM

Thanks all! Sounds like how I get on paper as well to 100!

I think I figured out how the de-priming pin broke. The brass from what I can tell doesn't have a single flash hole in the center, but two on either side of center, this, a broken pin. These will be set to the side until I collect enough of them to work up loads with those too.

Thanks again everyone!

papershotshells · December 15, 2013, 08:18 PM

Quarterhorse,

That brass with 2 flash holes is Berdan primed. Just my opinion, but don't even bother with it. Decapping it is a pain in the a$$ and replacement Berdan primers aren't all that common (they are different than regular boxer type primers such as the Remingtons or Winchesters).

I have decapped and reprimed Berdan primed brass before for some military surplus rifles. Basically I found some Berdan primers at a gunshow and used water (yes water) to deprime the cases hydraulicly. It just isn't worth it, especially in a common caliber like 308 that has readily available brass.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Papershotshells

Jerry45 · December 15, 2013, 08:41 PM

^^^ I agree!

Bart B. · December 15, 2013, 08:42 PM

QuarterHorse, I think it's a waste of time to break in a barrel. All it does is start wearing it out a few shots early. Never did any breaking in stuff. My match barrels all shot great from the first round down range. Factory barrels are pretty much the same. All you need is to fire a few shots to "smooth" up a factory barrel so it'll shoot more accurately. After cleaning it, you'll need to do that again. Factory barrel bores are typically rough enough to need this process.

QuarterHorse · December 15, 2013, 08:58 PM

I'm sorry if I confused any of you. This is not a "brand new" gun. This is a hunting rig I just accurized a little bit. It's probably only got 50 rounds down the barrel, however, I was just wanting to keep the playing field even by making sure the barrel was clean in between loads.

Thanks all!

Jerry45 · December 15, 2013, 09:23 PM

Bart, you know I have grate respect for you and value your opinion. I also used to believe brake-in was hog wash. However this is what I've found to be true "for me" through trial and error. I never used to brake barrels in. After doing what my smith suggested on four rifles they clean up waaayyyy faster and easier than any of the rifles I didn't brake-in. I know this matter has be argued for decades and will be for decades longer. However the way I look at it is 30 rounds + or - isn't going to matter in the long run. Also the first "easy" 12 cleanings aren't going to matter at all in the long run because it takes much fewer trips of the rod down the boar to get the same amount of cleaning done over the life of the barrel. The original 12 save many more in the long term. At least for the rifles I broke in. Your mileage may vary.

I don't brake-in to make the rifle shoot better. I do it to make it easier to clean (less work). I believe, think, assume, the barrels will last longer because of less wear and tare from running the rod in and out. But that's just a theory.

bamaranger · December 15, 2013, 10:20 PM

Hey quarter horse.

2.800 seems pretty short COAL to me.

Your rifle should take ctgs at least up to SAAMI spec in length. Most think that rifles do best with the slugs within a few thousandths of an inch of the lands. Establishing the correct bullet seating depth for your rifle will take some measurements and trial and error. And you may find that the magazine, if you intend to use it, will limit your bullet seating depth, 'course one can always single load. And COAL can/will vary according slug type/weight and the taper (ogive) of the projectile.

There are tools that will help establish COAL on your rifle, and there are some trial and error methods as well. SAAMI spec on .308 is 2.810" . Seating slugs so they are jammed INTO the lands can be dangerous as it will jack pressures, but at least one bullet maker advises to seat bearing against lands.

As an example, my match rifle uses a COAL of 2.870 with 175 gr SMK's, with slugs .003 off. It feeds from the mag, as the rifle is built purposely on a long action.

November 22, 2013, 09:40 PM	#1
QuarterHorse Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2010 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 421	Giving 308 Win a try With wanting to gain some more accuracy and start tailoring my loads for hunting I thought why not. I snagged some Berger VLD 168's, Varget, and Remington primers (didn't have the Winchesters I was after). Waiting for my dies to show up and I'll start working some loads in. Going to be going through my Savage mod 11 with inexpensive glass on top for now. Will be bedding the stock synthetic action, upgrading glass, and upgrading to an SSS trigger soon. Primary goal will be 3/4 moa and able to take game out to 500 yards. __________________ Never enough toys

November 22, 2013, 09:44 PM	#2
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Should not be a problem, or less of a problem then it will be getting anything from SSS . The 308 is a very easy rifle to load for. Un countable loads will work in it and powders from one end to the other will work. Try some Serria 155 Palmas and also the 175 match bullets. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

November 22, 2013, 10:53 PM	#3
Jeff2131 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Spring City, PA Posts: 497	I reload .308's and use 180gr hornady BTBT, imr4320, and cci primers. I have a ruger m77 markII with a very basic bushnell 3-9x40mm on top. Nothing fancy for glass. I dont hunt but i love hitting a consistant 1" at 100-150yards. Never tried that load on a further range so idk what the results would be at 400-500 yards. But i can tell you, i love that load, meters very well, and is a mid range burn rate. Dont quote me, but if i remember correctly, with out running out to the garage, its a 46.5-47gr charge. __________________ ---I DON'T DIAL 911---

November 22, 2013, 11:02 PM	#4
QuarterHorse Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2010 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 421	Oh yeah, there's a TON of info out there on the .308. I was originally going to snag some 165 hpbt Game kings but they only had the spritzer in stock. I read the hpbt was a little nicer for what I'm wanting so I went with the VLD's that they had in stock. Probably going to try some of the Barnes TTSX bullets in a lighter weight, say 150 or lighter. From the reading I've done they like to be pushed a little faster to get them to open up on game. Should be fun, when I get things rolling I will update the thread. __________________ Never enough toys

November 23, 2013, 01:21 AM	#5
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	With the 168s try 0.005 off the lands and 44.0 gr. Varget. Both my 308s love that. With the SGK165 try same off the lands with 45.0 varget. The 168s and 165 shoot to the same POI withe those loads. With 168 SGK and 165 SGK you should be able to get 1/2 MOA or better. Of course your milage may vary. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA! Last edited by Jerry45; November 23, 2013 at 02:09 AM.

November 23, 2013, 09:33 PM	#6
cookie5 Senior Member Join Date: September 1, 2011 Posts: 217	308 and 30/06 with 168 match bullets are almost like accuracy magic.

November 24, 2013, 02:14 PM	#7
QuarterHorse Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2010 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 421	Thanks for all of the replies fellas. I'm pretty excited to get this rig going. I think I'm going to be bedding the action while I'm waiting for my dies to get here as well. We'll see how it goes. I think I'll see what 165/168 combo works well and then I may try the Berger VLD 210's for fun too. I've read a LOT of people like 'em but I doubt they fit in my magazine. __________________ Never enough toys

December 11, 2013, 10:37 PM	#8
QuarterHorse Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2010 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 421	Well I got the rifle bedded and got my 1st run of .308 done. I need to purchase a new powder measure tool as my Lee double disc kit will only throw 43gr of Varget. I want to load up to 46gr in .5 increments but I'm maxed out right now. I have a COAL of 2.800 with one oops of 2.745. So I have a total of 6 loaded up so far. I need to re-zero the rifle with some factory ammo and will then see how these group unless I get my new powder measure before I get to the range and will run a few more batches for a comparo. These sure are Purdy........ __________________ Never enough toys

December 15, 2013, 03:15 PM	#9
QuarterHorse Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2010 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 421	Well I had some spare time today and went out and bought the Lee Perfect Powder Measure. I couldn't justify spending 3 times the money on what is basically the same thing before spending 10+ times the money on an electronic one. All the reading I've done says that with what powder I'm using it for I should be fine. Now, onto my next hurdle. I acquired some CBC brass with crimped primers. I know some of you are probably laughing, well, yes, I broke my de-priming pin trying to push the crimped primer out. After some cursing I just put my stuff away and will be ordering a new one from Lee. My question being how the hell do you de-prime these cases and am I going to have to ream these out after they're de-primed? It looks like they were staked on 3 sides! Anyway, thanks for following. Once I get my new de-priming pin I'll be doing from 43-45 grains of Varget in .5 intervals and seeing how they shoot. I plan on cleaning the barrel after each set of 5 so I'm on the same playing field at the range. __________________ Never enough toys

December 15, 2013, 05:47 PM	#10
ncrypt Member Join Date: December 3, 2013 Posts: 72	I had the same problem getting the right charge for my 308 loads. I divided everything by three and just do three drops for powder. I use a charge bar, since it's easier to get exactly what you want, but I'm sure one disc will get you there too. Its stays surprisingly accurate and you keep everything on the turret. I use the Lee Classic. Last edited by ncrypt; December 15, 2013 at 05:57 PM.

December 15, 2013, 05:49 PM	#11
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Quarterhorse, I think you'll be on a more level playing field if you don't clean the barrel between each groups shooting. First, if it's a factory barrel, put 5 rounds through the barrel to condition it for best accuracy. Then shoot your test groups but don't clean between them.

December 15, 2013, 06:03 PM	#12
Jeff2131 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Spring City, PA Posts: 497	http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm...037BAG&src=sim Hurry hurry hurry! __________________ ---I DON'T DIAL 911---

December 15, 2013, 07:30 PM	#13
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Too keep from braking de-priming pins back the pin out until it sticks out just far enough to "barley" get the primer out of the pocket. The farther out you have the pin the more prone it is to bend / brake. I've de-primed many crimped .223s using my RCBS die. I broke one pin the first time I tried. I backed the pin out and haven't broken another, (knock on wood). As Bart says, don't clean between shots when doing load development. What I do with a new barrel is load up 30 rounds of whatever powder charge and bulled depth. Doesn't really matter as they are just for brake-in and not load development. The only reason I do a brake-in is it makes it easier, for me anyway, to clean in the long run. Fire one clean fire one clean for ten shots. Shoot five clean, shoot five clean. This was recommended to me by my smith (a master bench-rest shooter). Seems to work! Then shoot two to foul the boar. You can also site your rifle in while doing the brake-in. Shoot one well place shot at 25 yards. Hold the cross hairs on the center of the bulls-eye. Without moving the rifle get someone to dial the scope so the cross-hairs are centered on the bullet hole. You'll then be on paper at 100 yards and you won't waist ammo just truing to get on paper. Fire three using the same sighting process to get POA to = POI at 100 or whatever range you're going to do your load development. Then start load development. Others may have a "better way" but that worked well for me with the two rifles I had built. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA! Last edited by Jerry45; December 15, 2013 at 07:37 PM.

December 15, 2013, 07:58 PM	#14
QuarterHorse Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2010 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 421	Thanks all! Sounds like how I get on paper as well to 100! I think I figured out how the de-priming pin broke. The brass from what I can tell doesn't have a single flash hole in the center, but two on either side of center, this, a broken pin. These will be set to the side until I collect enough of them to work up loads with those too. Thanks again everyone! __________________ Never enough toys

December 15, 2013, 08:18 PM	#15
papershotshells Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2013 Posts: 134	Quarterhorse, That brass with 2 flash holes is Berdan primed. Just my opinion, but don't even bother with it. Decapping it is a pain in the a$$ and replacement Berdan primers aren't all that common (they are different than regular boxer type primers such as the Remingtons or Winchesters). I have decapped and reprimed Berdan primed brass before for some military surplus rifles. Basically I found some Berdan primers at a gunshow and used water (yes water) to deprime the cases hydraulicly. It just isn't worth it, especially in a common caliber like 308 that has readily available brass. Just my $0.02 worth. Papershotshells

December 15, 2013, 08:41 PM	#16
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	^^^ I agree! __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA!

December 15, 2013, 08:42 PM	#17
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	QuarterHorse, I think it's a waste of time to break in a barrel. All it does is start wearing it out a few shots early. Never did any breaking in stuff. My match barrels all shot great from the first round down range. Factory barrels are pretty much the same. All you need is to fire a few shots to "smooth" up a factory barrel so it'll shoot more accurately. After cleaning it, you'll need to do that again. Factory barrel bores are typically rough enough to need this process.

December 15, 2013, 08:58 PM	#18
QuarterHorse Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2010 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 421	I'm sorry if I confused any of you. This is not a "brand new" gun. This is a hunting rig I just accurized a little bit. It's probably only got 50 rounds down the barrel, however, I was just wanting to keep the playing field even by making sure the barrel was clean in between loads. Thanks all! __________________ Never enough toys

December 15, 2013, 09:23 PM	#19
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Bart, you know I have grate respect for you and value your opinion. I also used to believe brake-in was hog wash. However this is what I've found to be true "for me" through trial and error. I never used to brake barrels in. After doing what my smith suggested on four rifles they clean up waaayyyy faster and easier than any of the rifles I didn't brake-in. I know this matter has be argued for decades and will be for decades longer. However the way I look at it is 30 rounds + or - isn't going to matter in the long run. Also the first "easy" 12 cleanings aren't going to matter at all in the long run because it takes much fewer trips of the rod down the boar to get the same amount of cleaning done over the life of the barrel. The original 12 save many more in the long term. At least for the rifles I broke in. Your mileage may vary. I don't brake-in to make the rifle shoot better. I do it to make it easier to clean (less work). I believe, think, assume, the barrels will last longer because of less wear and tare from running the rod in and out. But that's just a theory. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA! Last edited by Jerry45; December 15, 2013 at 09:41 PM.

December 15, 2013, 10:20 PM	#20
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	Hey quarter horse. 2.800 seems pretty short COAL to me. Your rifle should take ctgs at least up to SAAMI spec in length. Most think that rifles do best with the slugs within a few thousandths of an inch of the lands. Establishing the correct bullet seating depth for your rifle will take some measurements and trial and error. And you may find that the magazine, if you intend to use it, will limit your bullet seating depth, 'course one can always single load. And COAL can/will vary according slug type/weight and the taper (ogive) of the projectile. There are tools that will help establish COAL on your rifle, and there are some trial and error methods as well. SAAMI spec on .308 is 2.810" . Seating slugs so they are jammed INTO the lands can be dangerous as it will jack pressures, but at least one bullet maker advises to seat bearing against lands. As an example, my match rifle uses a COAL of 2.870 with 175 gr SMK's, with slugs .003 off. It feeds from the mag, as the rifle is built purposely on a long action.