If you habitually used Hoppes #9 to clean your guns but...

Pond, James Pond · January 12, 2015, 08:37 AM

... no shop had stocked it in months and you little bottle's supply was looking meagre, would you...

.... go for Hoppes M-Pro? (offered over the phoneby the shop, but can't actually find it on the Hoppes site and haven't seen it in the flesh)
.... go for Hoppes Elite?
.... go for Brunox gun cleaner?
.... just use the Ballistol you have?

Those are the options.
So, suggesting "ACME Miracle Gun-Gleam" from a family-run gunshop in Minisculeville will NOT help me!!

JWT · January 12, 2015, 08:43 AM

I'd go to Amazon.com and order a bottle of Hoppe's #9.

FrankenMauser · January 12, 2015, 09:12 AM

I was a die-hard Hoppes #9 guy for a very long time.

That ended quite abruptly, though, when I learned just how poorly it cleans in comparison to modern cleaning solvents. When they took the benzine out of Hoppes #9, they took the magic out.

Almost anything more modern than the current Hoppes #9 formula is a better option.

From your list, I'd probably go with the Ballistol. ...But the M-Pro cleaner might be given a shot. (They're not part of Hoppes - their products just get packaged together for some types of cleaning "kits" and similar items.)

Pond, James Pond · January 12, 2015, 09:51 AM

Quote:

I'd go to Amazon.com and order a bottle of Hoppe's #9.

Ordering from Amzon in the States would be absurdly expensive, so not really an option.

Quote:

I was a die-hard Hoppes #9 guy for a very long time.

That ended quite abruptly, though, when I learned just how poorly it cleans in comparison to modern cleaning solvents. When they took the benzine out of Hoppes #9, they took the magic out.

Almost anything more modern than the current Hoppes #9 formula is a better option.

From your list, I'd probably go with the Ballistol. ...But the M-Pro cleaner might be given a shot. (They're not part of Hoppes - their products just get packaged together for some types of cleaning "kits" and similar items.)

Can you provide a link for this M-Pro product?

I must say, having read Hoppe's totally impartial blurp on the Elite line, I'm surprised that has not been suggested. Is it as ineffective as the new formulation Hoppe's #9?

(Incidentally, Benzine is a nasty carcinogenic substance that can cross the dermal membrane, if I recall, so it may be better to go without!!)

As an aside, is Ballistol good as a cleaner too?
I thought it was purely a lube/anti-corrosive...

Jim Watson · January 12, 2015, 10:09 AM

I use M-Pro 7 which is slightly tweaked and sold by Hoppe's as "Elite".
If you can get either, you will be fine.

Ballistol is an emulsifiable oil, introduced in 1905 as the first CLP. It is an adequate cleaner and an adequate lubricant but dedicated solvent and lube will do better. I only use it in my black powder rifles and probably will not buy more when I have used the smelly stuff up.

g.willikers · January 12, 2015, 10:46 AM

On occasion I have also found the cleaning supplies shelf empty.
I just used stuff on hand from the local hardware store - kind of like Ed's Red cleaning solution.
Mineral spirits, acetone, brake cleaner, white gas, kerosene, motor oil, auto trans fluid, 'etc.
It all works just as good as those super expensive little bottles of brand name solvents and lubes.
I do test them on plastics and finishes first, though.
Although most of the substitutes weren't any more damaging than the official stuff, and usually less so.
When I worked in an auto service shop, my field stripped guns got nicely cleaned right along with the parts and tools.
Wish I could afford a home unit, now.

Shotgun Slim · January 12, 2015, 12:13 PM

The Hoppe's Elite is as least as good as old #9 and has zero odor. It's all I use anymore.

Pond, James Pond · January 12, 2015, 02:28 PM

Quote:

I use M-Pro 7 which is slightly tweaked and sold by Hoppe's as "Elite".

So M-Pro and Hoppe's Elite are essentially one and the same?

Jim Watson · January 12, 2015, 02:42 PM

Very similar. Here is what the manufacturer says:

Our company, Pantheon Enterprises has owned M-Pro7 since it’s inception in 1995. In 2003 we partnered with Hoppe’s to develop Hoppe’s Elite Gun Care Products which we now manufacture for them. Although some of the M-Pro7 and Hoppe’s Elite products are based on similar technologies, the chemical formulas and firearm requirements are different.

Shooters say the difference between MPro7 and Hoppe's Elite is negligible.

HiBC · January 12, 2015, 02:45 PM

I've used the Hoppes Benchrest.It will remove copper at a leisurely pace.The important thing is do not mix chemicals,or use them together...like say,Sweets 7.62(pretty high ammonia copper solvent) and some other bore cleaner.The chemicals can be incompatable and rapidly damage your bore.
No,I can't say how,but it was emphatically stated on a barrelmaker's page or some credible place.
Wipe-out and Patch Out have a following.I've used Patch-out.

There is another that I cannot think of the name!!I'll do an edit when I remember.

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 12, 2015, 03:01 PM

Has anyone ever tested ammonium persulfate or ferric chloride on barrel steel? Ferric chloride, I'm a little leery of, unless cutting it may work, but ammonium persulfate is a horse of a different color, and both dissolves copper. They use this to remove copper (etch) on printed circuit boards.

We have some metallurgists here, and I'm wondering about their thoughts.

Jim Watson · January 12, 2015, 03:16 PM

The old Ammonia Dope of the 1920s contained ammonium persulfate along with aqua ammonia and ammonium carbonate. There were particular cautions to using it for removal of hard metal fouling (cupro-nickel). I wouldn't fool with it for mere gilding metal.

I'm sure not putting ferric chloride on my gun except as a component of a rust bluing solution. Emphasis on rust.

Pond, James Pond · January 12, 2015, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Shooters say the difference between MPro7 and Hoppe's Elite is negligible.

Cheapest wins, then!!

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 12, 2015, 03:54 PM

Jim,

Both will rust, if they are not cleaned off and oil applied quickly, but I think ferric chloride may cause rust even without air to oxygenate it, so the ammonia dope method of soaking a bore would most likely not work.

I remember the ammonia dope, but with all the other ammonia products in it, I was thinking about straight ammonium persulfate dissolved in some liquid. I know they used to plug the breech and fill the barrel completely to the muzzle, using ammonia dope, with a hose, and let it set about 20 minutes, then quickly drain it, and oil the bore.

I'm not a chemist, so I'm wondering if somebody has tried it since in anything?

BumbleBug · January 12, 2015, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotgun Slim

The Hoppe's Elite is as least as good as old #9 and has zero odor. It's all I use anymore.

The reason I still use ol' Hoppe's #9 is the smell! Something about that smell that brings back good hunting & shooting memories. I wish Glade made an air freshener Hoppe's #9...LOL

...bug

BTW: I use Butch's if I really want to clean the gun.

JWT · January 12, 2015, 05:18 PM

Another big fan of MPro7. About all I use now. If it wasn't available I'd try the Hoppe's elite.

4runnerman · January 12, 2015, 06:29 PM

Hoppes is not a cleaner, It is a air freshner.

. To many other products on market that work so very much better. One just needs a bottle of it in the man cave to open when you are down there working. Brings back so,so many memories.

Jim Watson · January 12, 2015, 06:38 PM

Dixie

I don't know what a straight solution of ammonium persulfate would do.
Once upon a time when I was doing chemical engineering, I had a metallurgist to consult with and he had a large library of corrosion test data.
But we are retired now, and the agency almost defunct.
I would not want to do the test work in any barrel of mine. Maybe you have a takeoff barrel or one soon to be taken off that you could try it on.

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 12, 2015, 07:43 PM

Jim,

That's what I was thinking. I've got two old barrels laying around, that I can test it on. I may test it on the outside first, and just polish a place, then add the chemical to see how it reacts. Next, try the rifling, and see if it etches or corrodes it.

My guess is, that one may still have to use the ammonia dope method of plugging the breach, and using a hose. The main thing was to keep oxygen from getting to the bore while the chemicals were in it.

They have the ammonium persulfate in liquid form, by the pint, for PC Boards, however, I don't know what else exactly is in it. I'm hoping just the chemical and water, but the water might be a bad thing. I might try dissolving the crystal form in kerosene, and use it. I'm thinking I'll do some experimenting with it later on.

Buzzard Bait · January 12, 2015, 07:50 PM

Get your girl friend to put a little dab behind her ear before you go out.
bb

**Unclenick** · January 12, 2015, 10:07 PM

Take a some ferric chloride and stick a cleaned and de-varnished ten penny nail in it. Watch it start etching straight away and dissolve. You think one iron compound wouldn't bother to attack, but apparently the chlorine likes to be shared. And any little splatter of ferric chloride on iron or steel that is left to dry in an even remotely humid environment results a few weeks, if not days (depending on the humidity) later in a big knotty deep rust barnacle, heavily pitting the steel underneath. Definitely no go.

I'd guess the ammonium persulphate has a good chance of doing the same thing, but don't know from personal experience. The last time I was etching my own circuit boards was about thirty years ago, and then we had replaced ferric chloride with a mixture of dilute solutions of sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide cause rapid buble formation that kept scrubbing the copper so you didn't get the underetched zones that ferric chloride can leave.

The name, Hoppe's No. 9 came from the fact it had 9 ingredients originally. Last time I looked at the MSDS, it was down to 5. So, more than just the nitrobenzene (something archers once used to speed up development of callouses on their string fingers) were removed from it. I read the original formula somewhere once, with all 9 original ingredients included. I've forgotten where, but it seems to me there was a mercuric compound, as well, probably for amalgamating lead fouling.

The Hoppe's Elite is water soluble and safe. If you want something that is easy to get hold of that works about as well as the current #9, make up some Ed's Red. Automatic transmission fluid, deodorized K1 kerosene, mineral spirits, and acetone all in equal portions. The ATF and acetone alone is also a good penetrating oil. Your best bet it dribble a little down the bore while it is still warm at the range, plug the ends and head home. Getting the carbon while it's still soft makes it come out much more easily.

Finally, talk your gun store owner into importing some Boretech Eliminator, a genuinely superior general purpose cleaner. I also squirt it down the bore at the range and plug the ends with neoprene stoppers for the ride home. Gun is pretty much clean after I get there and wet patch it to clear out the bulk of the crud and to check for any remaining copper. I let that sit for ten and run a dry patch. No brushing, no muss, no fuss.

FrankenMauser · January 13, 2015, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Finally, talk your gun store owner into importing some Boretech Eliminator, a genuinely superior general purpose cleaner. I also squirt it down the bore at the range and plug the ends with neoprene stoppers for the ride home. Gun is pretty much clean after I get there and wet patch it to clear out the bulk of the crud and to check for any remaining copper. I let that sit for ten and run a dry patch. No brushing, no muss, no fuss.

I don't wet and plug the bore, but Bore Tech Eliminator is what I have been using lately.

Great stuff.

Just don't use it with brass or copper bore brushes. You'll never know when the copper fouling has been removed, because you're getting color from the brush(es).

Hunter Customs · January 13, 2015, 11:20 PM

About 35 or 40 years back I became acquainted with an older gentleman that was a gunsmith.
He specialized in building some very nice custom rifles and told me when it comes to bore cleaner he highly recommends Accu-Bore.
I ordered some, after trying it I've never used anything else.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter

troopcom · January 14, 2015, 12:28 AM

I am a fan of Ballistol since using it on my WW2 rifles after shooting corrosive ammo. All of my bores still look pristine after several range trips with corrosive ammo. So I would just go with it.
What do you guys think about this guy though? Is he right or wrong about Ballistol?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O-cpOgvbfw

Jim Watson · January 14, 2015, 12:47 AM

Beats me, I don't have any nickel or gold plated guns to worry about.

There was a series of claims on the SASS Wire back when I was active in CAS that Ballistol would fade your case colors.

I just don't think the stuff is that strong, it is oil with some additives to make it emulsifiable in water (Which is what gets out the chloride residue from "corrosive" primers.) and an odorant so your Feldwebel knows you have cleaned your Mauser.

I saw there were youtube videos claiming to test the actual metal dissolving ability of Ballistol, but I don't have an hour's patience for them.

January 12, 2015, 08:37 AM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	If you habitually used Hoppes #9 to clean your guns but... ... no shop had stocked it in months and you little bottle's supply was looking meagre, would you... .... go for Hoppes M-Pro? (offered over the phoneby the shop, but can't actually find it on the Hoppes site and haven't seen it in the flesh) .... go for Hoppes Elite? .... go for Brunox gun cleaner? .... just use the Ballistol you have? Those are the options. So, suggesting "ACME Miracle Gun-Gleam" from a family-run gunshop in Minisculeville will NOT help me!! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

January 12, 2015, 09:12 AM	#3
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I was a die-hard Hoppes #9 guy for a very long time. That ended quite abruptly, though, when I learned just how poorly it cleans in comparison to modern cleaning solvents. When they took the benzine out of Hoppes #9, they took the magic out. Almost anything more modern than the current Hoppes #9 formula is a better option. From your list, I'd probably go with the Ballistol. ...But the M-Pro cleaner might be given a shot. (They're not part of Hoppes - their products just get packaged together for some types of cleaning "kits" and similar items.) __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

January 12, 2015, 10:46 AM	#6
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	On occasion I have also found the cleaning supplies shelf empty. I just used stuff on hand from the local hardware store - kind of like Ed's Red cleaning solution. Mineral spirits, acetone, brake cleaner, white gas, kerosene, motor oil, auto trans fluid, 'etc. It all works just as good as those super expensive little bottles of brand name solvents and lubes. I do test them on plastics and finishes first, though. Although most of the substitutes weren't any more damaging than the official stuff, and usually less so. When I worked in an auto service shop, my field stripped guns got nicely cleaned right along with the parts and tools. Wish I could afford a home unit, now. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” Last edited by g.willikers; January 12, 2015 at 10:51 AM.

January 12, 2015, 06:29 PM	#17
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Hoppes is not a cleaner, It is a air freshner.. To many other products on market that work so very much better. One just needs a bottle of it in the man cave to open when you are down there working. Brings back so,so many memories. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

January 12, 2015, 07:50 PM	#20
Buzzard Bait Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 502	that Hoppies smell is magic Get your girl friend to put a little dab behind her ear before you go out. bb

January 12, 2015, 08:43 AM	#2
JWT Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 3,888	I'd go to Amazon.com and order a bottle of Hoppe's #9.

January 12, 2015, 10:09 AM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I use M-Pro 7 which is slightly tweaked and sold by Hoppe's as "Elite". If you can get either, you will be fine. Ballistol is an emulsifiable oil, introduced in 1905 as the first CLP. It is an adequate cleaner and an adequate lubricant but dedicated solvent and lube will do better. I only use it in my black powder rifles and probably will not buy more when I have used the smelly stuff up.

January 12, 2015, 12:13 PM	#7
Shotgun Slim Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2014 Location: Va Posts: 291	The Hoppe's Elite is as least as good as old #9 and has zero odor. It's all I use anymore.

January 12, 2015, 02:42 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Very similar. Here is what the manufacturer says: Our company, Pantheon Enterprises has owned M-Pro7 since it’s inception in 1995. In 2003 we partnered with Hoppe’s to develop Hoppe’s Elite Gun Care Products which we now manufacture for them. Although some of the M-Pro7 and Hoppe’s Elite products are based on similar technologies, the chemical formulas and firearm requirements are different. Shooters say the difference between MPro7 and Hoppe's Elite is negligible.

January 12, 2015, 02:45 PM	#10
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	I've used the Hoppes Benchrest.It will remove copper at a leisurely pace.The important thing is do not mix chemicals,or use them together...like say,Sweets 7.62(pretty high ammonia copper solvent) and some other bore cleaner.The chemicals can be incompatable and rapidly damage your bore. No,I can't say how,but it was emphatically stated on a barrelmaker's page or some credible place. Wipe-out and Patch Out have a following.I've used Patch-out. There is another that I cannot think of the name!!I'll do an edit when I remember.

January 12, 2015, 03:01 PM	#11
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Has anyone ever tested ammonium persulfate or ferric chloride on barrel steel? Ferric chloride, I'm a little leery of, unless cutting it may work, but ammonium persulfate is a horse of a different color, and both dissolves copper. They use this to remove copper (etch) on printed circuit boards. We have some metallurgists here, and I'm wondering about their thoughts.

January 12, 2015, 03:16 PM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	The old Ammonia Dope of the 1920s contained ammonium persulfate along with aqua ammonia and ammonium carbonate. There were particular cautions to using it for removal of hard metal fouling (cupro-nickel). I wouldn't fool with it for mere gilding metal. I'm sure not putting ferric chloride on my gun except as a component of a rust bluing solution. Emphasis on rust.

January 12, 2015, 03:54 PM	#14
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Jim, Both will rust, if they are not cleaned off and oil applied quickly, but I think ferric chloride may cause rust even without air to oxygenate it, so the ammonia dope method of soaking a bore would most likely not work. I remember the ammonia dope, but with all the other ammonia products in it, I was thinking about straight ammonium persulfate dissolved in some liquid. I know they used to plug the breech and fill the barrel completely to the muzzle, using ammonia dope, with a hose, and let it set about 20 minutes, then quickly drain it, and oil the bore. I'm not a chemist, so I'm wondering if somebody has tried it since in anything?

January 12, 2015, 05:18 PM	#16
JWT Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 3,888	Another big fan of MPro7. About all I use now. If it wasn't available I'd try the Hoppe's elite.

January 12, 2015, 06:38 PM	#18
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Dixie I don't know what a straight solution of ammonium persulfate would do. Once upon a time when I was doing chemical engineering, I had a metallurgist to consult with and he had a large library of corrosion test data. But we are retired now, and the agency almost defunct. I would not want to do the test work in any barrel of mine. Maybe you have a takeoff barrel or one soon to be taken off that you could try it on.

January 12, 2015, 07:43 PM	#19
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Jim, That's what I was thinking. I've got two old barrels laying around, that I can test it on. I may test it on the outside first, and just polish a place, then add the chemical to see how it reacts. Next, try the rifling, and see if it etches or corrodes it. My guess is, that one may still have to use the ammonia dope method of plugging the breach, and using a hose. The main thing was to keep oxygen from getting to the bore while the chemicals were in it. They have the ammonium persulfate in liquid form, by the pint, for PC Boards, however, I don't know what else exactly is in it. I'm hoping just the chemical and water, but the water might be a bad thing. I might try dissolving the crystal form in kerosene, and use it. I'm thinking I'll do some experimenting with it later on.

January 12, 2015, 10:07 PM	#21
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Take a some ferric chloride and stick a cleaned and de-varnished ten penny nail in it. Watch it start etching straight away and dissolve. You think one iron compound wouldn't bother to attack, but apparently the chlorine likes to be shared. And any little splatter of ferric chloride on iron or steel that is left to dry in an even remotely humid environment results a few weeks, if not days (depending on the humidity) later in a big knotty deep rust barnacle, heavily pitting the steel underneath. Definitely no go. I'd guess the ammonium persulphate has a good chance of doing the same thing, but don't know from personal experience. The last time I was etching my own circuit boards was about thirty years ago, and then we had replaced ferric chloride with a mixture of dilute solutions of sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide cause rapid buble formation that kept scrubbing the copper so you didn't get the underetched zones that ferric chloride can leave. The name, Hoppe's No. 9 came from the fact it had 9 ingredients originally. Last time I looked at the MSDS, it was down to 5. So, more than just the nitrobenzene (something archers once used to speed up development of callouses on their string fingers) were removed from it. I read the original formula somewhere once, with all 9 original ingredients included. I've forgotten where, but it seems to me there was a mercuric compound, as well, probably for amalgamating lead fouling. The Hoppe's Elite is water soluble and safe. If you want something that is easy to get hold of that works about as well as the current #9, make up some Ed's Red. Automatic transmission fluid, deodorized K1 kerosene, mineral spirits, and acetone all in equal portions. The ATF and acetone alone is also a good penetrating oil. Your best bet it dribble a little down the bore while it is still warm at the range, plug the ends and head home. Getting the carbon while it's still soft makes it come out much more easily. Finally, talk your gun store owner into importing some Boretech Eliminator, a genuinely superior general purpose cleaner. I also squirt it down the bore at the range and plug the ends with neoprene stoppers for the ride home. Gun is pretty much clean after I get there and wet patch it to clear out the bulk of the crud and to check for any remaining copper. I let that sit for ten and run a dry patch. No brushing, no muss, no fuss. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 13, 2015, 11:20 PM	#23
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	About 35 or 40 years back I became acquainted with an older gentleman that was a gunsmith. He specialized in building some very nice custom rifles and told me when it comes to bore cleaner he highly recommends Accu-Bore. I ordered some, after trying it I've never used anything else. Best Regards Bob Hunter

January 14, 2015, 12:28 AM	#24
troopcom Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2011 Posts: 230	I am a fan of Ballistol since using it on my WW2 rifles after shooting corrosive ammo. All of my bores still look pristine after several range trips with corrosive ammo. So I would just go with it. What do you guys think about this guy though? Is he right or wrong about Ballistol? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O-cpOgvbfw

January 14, 2015, 12:47 AM	#25
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Beats me, I don't have any nickel or gold plated guns to worry about. There was a series of claims on the SASS Wire back when I was active in CAS that Ballistol would fade your case colors. I just don't think the stuff is that strong, it is oil with some additives to make it emulsifiable in water (Which is what gets out the chloride residue from "corrosive" primers.) and an odorant so your Feldwebel knows you have cleaned your Mauser. I saw there were youtube videos claiming to test the actual metal dissolving ability of Ballistol, but I don't have an hour's patience for them.