Mixing cleaners

cdoc42 · September 2, 2006, 08:30 PM

I'm sure we all have a method to our madness when we clean our rifles. I'm always trying something new, I guess to see if the patches come out clean faster than they do with all the other stuff I've tried. I'm told the Bench Rest folks use Kroil. I generally swab the bore with that first, figuring it will penetrate or get under the dirt,lead and copper. Then I'll use Shooter's Choice or Hoppe's #9, depending on my mood. Recently switched to Butch's Bore Shine.

Since I use one after the other I decided to mix the Kroil with Shooter's Choice, 25-75, then 50-50. It was in an opaque bottle and I transferred it one day to a glass bottle. Standing, it was clear. But shake it and you get an immediate precipitate or what I can call a muddy mixture. But it does separate if left standing. A close look shows the Kroil on top and the Shooter's Choice on the bottom.

Then I decided to see what would happen with Kroil/Butch's and Kroil/Hoppes.

Kroil and Butch's also form a muddy mixture if shaken but clears upon standing.

Hoppes and Kroil show no such event.

Any chemists out there?

stinger · September 2, 2006, 10:09 PM

I think this is a bad idea. We don't know all of the ingredients in these chemicals, nor how they might react to one another. I doubt you would harm your gun, but you just might harm yourself.

Stinger

hoghunting · September 3, 2006, 11:29 PM

I agree with stinger as that is the same reason you don't mix household cleaners either.

Make it easier on yourself and get a can of Wipe-Out foaming cleaner. This stuff is wonderful. You spray it in the barrel, let is sit (will not harm the barrel-even overnight), then patch it out. The barrel is clean. Doesn't get any easier than that.

T-Bear · September 3, 2006, 11:48 PM

I;ve found that out too. While at Wally World, I bought a can of that foam cleaner, just because I had some extra cash to try out.
After a day at the field with the Casull and the .308 I tried out this foam cleaner to remove copper fouling, It did just as good as Sweet's, that I usually run through the bore.
The foam is alot easier, spray it in and push it out, then I run #9 through the bore just to clean up any other fouling.
And to your suggestion, i would not mix the cleaners in a bottle, it may be bad. But in this case SEEMS like it is ok.

918v · September 4, 2006, 12:16 AM

Have you guys tried KG-12. It's yellow and does not stink. It removes copper faster than Sweets and does not etch the bore if you use it on a hot barrel. I've been using it for six months and love it.

www.kgcoatings.com

cdoc42 · September 4, 2006, 05:25 PM

Is "Wipe-out" foaming cleaner specifically used for cleaning guns? who makes it?

MADISON · September 12, 2006, 06:54 AM

Have you tried ED's Red?
Equal parts oof:
Varsol/Oil Based Paint Thinner
K-1 Keroosene
Dextron 2 or 3

Use your search engine and key in Ed's Red.

brickeyee · September 12, 2006, 08:53 AM

Mixing Kroil and Shooters Choice has been around a long time in the bench rest community.
I use a 50-50 mix.
Shake before use, apply to patch.
Works very well.

VaFisher · September 12, 2006, 12:28 PM

Havent done that mix bbut have used Birchwood Casey 2-in-1 bore cleaner. It's about as good as it gets for copper, lead & plastic, also leaves a protective rust-preventative coating all in one step. Sounds like what you were trying to do, why not try this, it's already on the market. I know BassPro and several other carry it.

**Unclenick** · September 12, 2006, 02:21 PM

Both Shooter's Choice and Butch's Bore Shine contain water-soluble chemicals, like ammonia. They aren't going to be Kroil compatible, but it won't hurt anything to mix these particular items. I spoke with one of the originators of Butch's, and he told me they left a 4140 steel sample sitting in the product for 6 months and could observe no etching or other evidence of the immersion. So you can just plug a bore and fill it up with the stuff and let it sit overnight. Poor it off into a jar for another go-round in the morning, then run dry patches.

I am about to try a water-soluble next-generation cleaner. In this case Bore Tech's Eliminator. I suspect it works by chelation, but don't know? They claim to have patents pending on it. We shall see if it really works as much faster as is claimed?

A lot of the benchrest guys used to employ two patches of Kroil to get rid of loose powder fouling and carbon, followed by two patches of progressively short-stroked tight patches wet with Remington Bore Cleaner (now called 40X). The latter provided mechanical metal fouling removal with a mild, friable abrasive. This was followed by two more Kroil patches, then either dry patches or oil depending on whether they were shooting more or putting things away for the day? The diatomaceous earth in the 40X is like brown Soft-scrub, and lightly polishes the bore along with cleaning it. I prefer Iosso Bore Cleaner to the Remington, but none of this is written in stone by anybody.

The Shooter's Choice mix was also popular among those benchresters who feared the mechanical removal compounds' abrasive action on their bores. As near as I can tell, you would have to do thousands of cleanings to take a tenth of a mil off with any of these cleaners, so barrel life will be too short for it to matter unless you clean after every shot.

Ed's Red will do what the Kroil does, but better, IMHO. I made mine with the fourth ingredient, acetone, but not the fifth, anhydrous lanolin. This way there are two polar and two non-polar solvents attacking residue. It seems bound to be more versatile at dissolving than plain Kroil. One might substitute Kroil for the automatic transmission fluid if one were willing to go to the expense and also risk being made fun of taking the Red out of Ed’s Red. Ed's is a powder residue solvent, but. like Kroil, it is not equipped to dissolve metal fouling.

Kroil is supposed to loosen metal fouling by getting under it, but I've never seen any metal flakes come out on a Kroil patch. Maybe it would help a brush knock metal loose, or a Lewis-type lead remover pulling lead out? But other than aiding a these or other mechanical removers like JB or 40X or Iosso Bore Cleaner, I suspect it is only serving as another sooty powder residue remover. I have no reason to think it can outperform Ed's Red or Bore Scrubber in this regard. About the only way to study it would be to substitute something else to get the powder residue out, then see whether it takes any fewer passes with a mechanical cleaner to get the metal out when Kroil is used first?

Nick

hoghunting · September 12, 2006, 02:42 PM

cdoc42,

Wipe-Out was made specifically for firearms use.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...%26+LUBRICANTS

They also carry it a www.midwayusa.com

cdoc42 · September 12, 2006, 03:34 PM

Thanks, everybody - great discussion.

Jayb · September 16, 2006, 09:03 PM

Wipeout is some good stuff. I use it in all my rimfire target rifles, my AR's, my 30-30, ...... everything.

It does....
remove copper
remove lead
remove fouling
surprise you when you use it on a rifle you've just cleaned

it does not....
stain clothes/carpets
smell
irritate skin
harm the bore when left overnight

I shoot some into the bore/s before leaving the range, case the rifle/s, put all my gear away when I get home, push a few dry patches down the bore/s, one patch with Hoppes #9, and into the safe.

specs on Wipeout...... http://sharpshootr.com/
best price I've found..... www.eabco.com they discount if you buy more than three cans. I use a can about every six months. $10.00/can bought 5 at a time.

Dave Haven · September 16, 2006, 10:49 PM

Wipe-Out is "elbow grease in a can".
In my experience, nothing removes copper fouling as quickly as Wipe-Out.

Ausserordeutlich · September 17, 2006, 11:15 AM

The "I don't think...." concerns about mixing Kroil with various borecleaners aren't based on anything more than "I don't think..." Benchrest and varmint shooters have been using various mixtures of Shooter's Choice, Butch's, etc., with Kroil, successfully, for years. Trying to draw conclusions about such matters, based on general knowledge of certain chemicals' not being mixed isn't based on any easily-available empirical data.

September 2, 2006, 08:30 PM	#1
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	Mixing cleaners I'm sure we all have a method to our madness when we clean our rifles. I'm always trying something new, I guess to see if the patches come out clean faster than they do with all the other stuff I've tried. I'm told the Bench Rest folks use Kroil. I generally swab the bore with that first, figuring it will penetrate or get under the dirt,lead and copper. Then I'll use Shooter's Choice or Hoppe's #9, depending on my mood. Recently switched to Butch's Bore Shine. Since I use one after the other I decided to mix the Kroil with Shooter's Choice, 25-75, then 50-50. It was in an opaque bottle and I transferred it one day to a glass bottle. Standing, it was clear. But shake it and you get an immediate precipitate or what I can call a muddy mixture. But it does separate if left standing. A close look shows the Kroil on top and the Shooter's Choice on the bottom. Then I decided to see what would happen with Kroil/Butch's and Kroil/Hoppes. Kroil and Butch's also form a muddy mixture if shaken but clears upon standing. Hoppes and Kroil show no such event. Any chemists out there?

September 12, 2006, 06:54 AM	#7
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	Mixing Gun Cleaners Have you tried ED's Red? Equal parts oof: Varsol/Oil Based Paint Thinner K-1 Keroosene Dextron 2 or 3 Use your search engine and key in Ed's Red.

September 12, 2006, 02:21 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Both Shooter's Choice and Butch's Bore Shine contain water-soluble chemicals, like ammonia. They aren't going to be Kroil compatible, but it won't hurt anything to mix these particular items. I spoke with one of the originators of Butch's, and he told me they left a 4140 steel sample sitting in the product for 6 months and could observe no etching or other evidence of the immersion. So you can just plug a bore and fill it up with the stuff and let it sit overnight. Poor it off into a jar for another go-round in the morning, then run dry patches. I am about to try a water-soluble next-generation cleaner. In this case Bore Tech's Eliminator. I suspect it works by chelation, but don't know? They claim to have patents pending on it. We shall see if it really works as much faster as is claimed? A lot of the benchrest guys used to employ two patches of Kroil to get rid of loose powder fouling and carbon, followed by two patches of progressively short-stroked tight patches wet with Remington Bore Cleaner (now called 40X). The latter provided mechanical metal fouling removal with a mild, friable abrasive. This was followed by two more Kroil patches, then either dry patches or oil depending on whether they were shooting more or putting things away for the day? The diatomaceous earth in the 40X is like brown Soft-scrub, and lightly polishes the bore along with cleaning it. I prefer Iosso Bore Cleaner to the Remington, but none of this is written in stone by anybody. The Shooter's Choice mix was also popular among those benchresters who feared the mechanical removal compounds' abrasive action on their bores. As near as I can tell, you would have to do thousands of cleanings to take a tenth of a mil off with any of these cleaners, so barrel life will be too short for it to matter unless you clean after every shot. Ed's Red will do what the Kroil does, but better, IMHO. I made mine with the fourth ingredient, acetone, but not the fifth, anhydrous lanolin. This way there are two polar and two non-polar solvents attacking residue. It seems bound to be more versatile at dissolving than plain Kroil. One might substitute Kroil for the automatic transmission fluid if one were willing to go to the expense and also risk being made fun of taking the Red out of Ed’s Red. Ed's is a powder residue solvent, but. like Kroil, it is not equipped to dissolve metal fouling. Kroil is supposed to loosen metal fouling by getting under it, but I've never seen any metal flakes come out on a Kroil patch. Maybe it would help a brush knock metal loose, or a Lewis-type lead remover pulling lead out? But other than aiding a these or other mechanical removers like JB or 40X or Iosso Bore Cleaner, I suspect it is only serving as another sooty powder residue remover. I have no reason to think it can outperform Ed's Red or Bore Scrubber in this regard. About the only way to study it would be to substitute something else to get the powder residue out, then see whether it takes any fewer passes with a mechanical cleaner to get the metal out when Kroil is used first? Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 16, 2006, 09:03 PM	#13
Jayb Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 103	Wipeout is some good stuff. I use it in all my rimfire target rifles, my AR's, my 30-30, ...... everything. It does.... remove copper remove lead remove fouling surprise you when you use it on a rifle you've just cleaned it does not.... stain clothes/carpets smell irritate skin harm the bore when left overnight I shoot some into the bore/s before leaving the range, case the rifle/s, put all my gear away when I get home, push a few dry patches down the bore/s, one patch with Hoppes #9, and into the safe. specs on Wipeout...... http://sharpshootr.com/ best price I've found..... www.eabco.com they discount if you buy more than three cans. I use a can about every six months. $10.00/can bought 5 at a time. __________________ Freedom has a flavor the protected can never taste... USMC 8652, 2531, RVN Jun '66, - May 68 Some of my rifles

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September 2, 2006, 10:09 PM	#2
stinger Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Location: west texas Posts: 772	I think this is a bad idea. We don't know all of the ingredients in these chemicals, nor how they might react to one another. I doubt you would harm your gun, but you just might harm yourself. Stinger

September 3, 2006, 11:29 PM	#3
hoghunting Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2006 Posts: 1,559	I agree with stinger as that is the same reason you don't mix household cleaners either. Make it easier on yourself and get a can of Wipe-Out foaming cleaner. This stuff is wonderful. You spray it in the barrel, let is sit (will not harm the barrel-even overnight), then patch it out. The barrel is clean. Doesn't get any easier than that.

September 3, 2006, 11:48 PM	#4
T-Bear Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2005 Posts: 119	I;ve found that out too. While at Wally World, I bought a can of that foam cleaner, just because I had some extra cash to try out. After a day at the field with the Casull and the .308 I tried out this foam cleaner to remove copper fouling, It did just as good as Sweet's, that I usually run through the bore. The foam is alot easier, spray it in and push it out, then I run #9 through the bore just to clean up any other fouling. And to your suggestion, i would not mix the cleaners in a bottle, it may be bad. But in this case SEEMS like it is ok.

September 4, 2006, 12:16 AM	#5
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	Have you guys tried KG-12. It's yellow and does not stink. It removes copper faster than Sweets and does not etch the bore if you use it on a hot barrel. I've been using it for six months and love it. www.kgcoatings.com

September 4, 2006, 05:25 PM	#6
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	Is "Wipe-out" foaming cleaner specifically used for cleaning guns? who makes it?

September 12, 2006, 08:53 AM	#8
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	Mixing Kroil and Shooters Choice has been around a long time in the bench rest community. I use a 50-50 mix. Shake before use, apply to patch. Works very well.

September 12, 2006, 12:28 PM	#9
VaFisher Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 596	Havent done that mix bbut have used Birchwood Casey 2-in-1 bore cleaner. It's about as good as it gets for copper, lead & plastic, also leaves a protective rust-preventative coating all in one step. Sounds like what you were trying to do, why not try this, it's already on the market. I know BassPro and several other carry it.

September 12, 2006, 02:42 PM	#11
hoghunting Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2006 Posts: 1,559	cdoc42, Wipe-Out was made specifically for firearms use. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...%26+LUBRICANTS They also carry it a www.midwayusa.com

September 12, 2006, 03:34 PM	#12
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	Thanks, everybody - great discussion.

September 16, 2006, 10:49 PM	#14
Dave Haven Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2000 Location: near Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 790	Wipe-Out is "elbow grease in a can". In my experience, nothing removes copper fouling as quickly as Wipe-Out.

September 17, 2006, 11:15 AM	#15
Ausserordeutlich Junior member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 996	The "I don't think...." concerns about mixing Kroil with various borecleaners aren't based on anything more than "I don't think..." Benchrest and varmint shooters have been using various mixtures of Shooter's Choice, Butch's, etc., with Kroil, successfully, for years. Trying to draw conclusions about such matters, based on general knowledge of certain chemicals' not being mixed isn't based on any easily-available empirical data.