HR 1369: Require Insurance for Gun Owners - Page 2

2ndsojourn · April 3, 2013, 09:45 AM

@ Mike Irwin

Although stiff gun control legislation isn't taking shape nationally, it is happening in various states one by one. It wouldn't surprise me if something like this passes in NY or CA, or even if they tried it here in NJ. And if it ever passes in one state, others will surely follow.

**Mike Irwin** · April 3, 2013, 11:36 AM

I THINK that New York was one of the states in which it was tried, and failed.

Ok, here's the article I was talking about:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...gun-insurance/

Here's the salient quote:

"Six states -- California, Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York and Pennsylvania -- have all introduced gun liability insurance legislation over the past few months. None has produced any results."

geetarman · April 3, 2013, 11:37 AM

Quote:

And if it ever passes in one state, others will surely follow.

Getting other states to follow will probably require the old carrot and stick. Pass some sort of "legislation" for the "safety" of the children or forfeit Federal dollars for some project or another.

**Mike Irwin** · April 3, 2013, 12:47 PM

"And if it ever passes in one state, others will surely follow."

And that's different from any other law... how?

Even if some pass such laws, other's won't.

It's the federal level at which we truly have to worry.

Evan Thomas · April 3, 2013, 12:51 PM

The main reason this bill will go nowhere, just as the attempts to pass such legislation at the state level have gone nowhere, is that the insurance industry is opposed to the whole idea.

At least two industry trade groups* have come out against the bill, on the grounds that:

as written, it would require them to cover liability for illegal acts, and they're not about to do that;
if it were rewritten to exclude illegal acts, it would be pointless, as accidents account for about 2% of gun deaths;
the government can require the purchase of such insurance, but it can't require insurers to offer it;
it could backfire by encouraging negligence on the part of gun owners who are covered.

Given that the insurance industry has a very powerful lobby, and that the government has a long history of bending over backward to accommodate it, this is way, way down on the list of things I'm worried about.
_____
* The Insurance Information Institute, and the American Insurance Association.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...r-gun-violence
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/...ity-insurance/

**44 AMP** · April 3, 2013, 02:20 PM

I could support the concept of gun owners being required to have insurance, ONLY if the rest of the nation (every single non gun owning individual) was ALSO required to buy insurance against the possibility of an un- or under insured gun owner.

They make us do that with our car insurance.

Doesn't NRA membership still come with a couple million dollars of accident insurance? It used to (I haven't checked lately). Provide proof of insurance for a gun purchace? Simple, show them your NRA membership card!

eldermike · April 3, 2013, 03:01 PM

It was mentioned that gun laws are passing in states all over or that if one passes others will follow. That is true, however, for the most part consistent with the red/blue state map.

amathis · April 3, 2013, 08:48 PM

I would agree that this is like a poll tax.

The problem is that precedent has already been set in a recent federal court hearing where US citizens are required to purchase a certain type of insurance.

Regardless of whether we agree with it or not, they already have set the groundwork for this.

Will it pass in Washington. Doubtful, unless the anti's take more seats.

(kept intentionally ambiguous to keep it non political)

Daugherty16 · April 3, 2013, 11:45 PM

I think the vast majority of gun banners are simply afraid of guns: your guns, my guns, the criminal's guns. They don't know anything about guns, but have been conditioned (brainwashed) to think the only people who should have guns are the police and military. Of course, they don't know that their chances of being shot by a policeman is about 10 times greater than their being shot by a concealed carry permitee. And unless your career choice is burglary, you aren't very likely to be shot by a home/gun owner. And they are incapable of understanding the vast danger of having the government own all the guns.

Then, there is the conspiracy theory. I generally scoff at such things, but this has me thinking.

So the Gov't has been absolutely flooding the country with M1, new actual cash for the last ten years, markedly accelerated in the past four. This has long-term affects on future inflation. They have also been flooding the world with dollars through the incredible Quantitative Easing program, where they create dollars - just make them up - to buy their own Treasuries doing two things - maintaining the appearance of demand for US Treasuries, and keeping interest rates at historical lows.

China owns a $ trillion or more in treasuries. At some point they will conclude the US can't honor its debts, or at some point we will just default on our interest payments when we run out of discretionary funds, because there are still honest people at the Treasury despite its recent leadership. China will start a sell-off, going back to hard assets like precious metals. the world will follow. Hyper-inflation could easily result. We would sink deeper into insolvency without the constant flow of borrowed dollars. Prices will shoot up on all desirable commodities - water, gasoline, food, alcohol, etc. Massive uncontrollable inflation will occur. The population will be unable to find, let alone buy, gas for their cars and food for their children.

Now if you were the govt, would you want an armed populace?

Anyhow, it bears consideration. Not saying it is true, or even likely. But it is possible.

Punisher_1 · April 4, 2013, 04:20 AM

Did the Loyalists of the Revolutionary time period try to disarm the Patriots prior to the revolution? Is this a repeat of history?

Pointshoot · April 4, 2013, 08:26 AM

Punisher 1 - - - - "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

Of course, true American history purposely hasnt been taught in 'schools' for a very long time. Just ask any h.s. senior about the American revolution and watch the blank look you get. And that same look will likely be displayed by their parents - - - this degradation has gone on for 100 years.
They also arent taught about logical thinking or arguments. If they were, theyd see that the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting are less than being struck by lightning. This is all a farce, and is really about CONTROL not 'safety'.

Will Americans defend rights they know nothing about . . . I don't know. How can a people who are so easily manipulated (just look who they vote for) . . remain free ?

April 3, 2013, 11:36 AM	#27
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	I THINK that New York was one of the states in which it was tried, and failed. Ok, here's the article I was talking about: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...gun-insurance/ Here's the salient quote: "Six states -- California, Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York and Pennsylvania -- have all introduced gun liability insurance legislation over the past few months. None has produced any results." __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 3, 2013, 12:47 PM	#29
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"And if it ever passes in one state, others will surely follow." And that's different from any other law... how? Even if some pass such laws, other's won't. It's the federal level at which we truly have to worry. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 3, 2013, 12:51 PM	#30
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	The main reason this bill will go nowhere, just as the attempts to pass such legislation at the state level have gone nowhere, is that the insurance industry is opposed to the whole idea. At least two industry trade groups* have come out against the bill, on the grounds that: as written, it would require them to cover liability for illegal acts, and they're not about to do that; if it were rewritten to exclude illegal acts, it would be pointless, as accidents account for about 2% of gun deaths; the government can require the purchase of such insurance, but it can't require insurers to offer it; it could backfire by encouraging negligence on the part of gun owners who are covered. Given that the insurance industry has a very powerful lobby, and that the government has a long history of bending over backward to accommodate it, this is way, way down on the list of things I'm worried about. _____ * The Insurance Information Institute, and the American Insurance Association. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...r-gun-violence http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/...ity-insurance/ __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

April 3, 2013, 02:20 PM	#31
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	I could support the concept of gun owners being required to have insurance, ONLY if the rest of the nation (every single non gun owning individual) was ALSO required to buy insurance against the possibility of an un- or under insured gun owner. They make us do that with our car insurance. Doesn't NRA membership still come with a couple million dollars of accident insurance? It used to (I haven't checked lately). Provide proof of insurance for a gun purchace? Simple, show them your NRA membership card! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 3, 2013, 11:45 PM	#34
Daugherty16 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2008 Location: Live Free or Die state Posts: 259	So why do they want us disarmed? I think the vast majority of gun banners are simply afraid of guns: your guns, my guns, the criminal's guns. They don't know anything about guns, but have been conditioned (brainwashed) to think the only people who should have guns are the police and military. Of course, they don't know that their chances of being shot by a policeman is about 10 times greater than their being shot by a concealed carry permitee. And unless your career choice is burglary, you aren't very likely to be shot by a home/gun owner. And they are incapable of understanding the vast danger of having the government own all the guns. Then, there is the conspiracy theory. I generally scoff at such things, but this has me thinking. So the Gov't has been absolutely flooding the country with M1, new actual cash for the last ten years, markedly accelerated in the past four. This has long-term affects on future inflation. They have also been flooding the world with dollars through the incredible Quantitative Easing program, where they create dollars - just make them up - to buy their own Treasuries doing two things - maintaining the appearance of demand for US Treasuries, and keeping interest rates at historical lows. China owns a $ trillion or more in treasuries. At some point they will conclude the US can't honor its debts, or at some point we will just default on our interest payments when we run out of discretionary funds, because there are still honest people at the Treasury despite its recent leadership. China will start a sell-off, going back to hard assets like precious metals. the world will follow. Hyper-inflation could easily result. We would sink deeper into insolvency without the constant flow of borrowed dollars. Prices will shoot up on all desirable commodities - water, gasoline, food, alcohol, etc. Massive uncontrollable inflation will occur. The population will be unable to find, let alone buy, gas for their cars and food for their children. Now if you were the govt, would you want an armed populace? Anyhow, it bears consideration. Not saying it is true, or even likely. But it is possible. __________________ "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent "Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.

April 3, 2013, 09:45 AM	#26
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	@ Mike Irwin Although stiff gun control legislation isn't taking shape nationally, it is happening in various states one by one. It wouldn't surprise me if something like this passes in NY or CA, or even if they tried it here in NJ. And if it ever passes in one state, others will surely follow.

April 3, 2013, 03:01 PM	#32
eldermike Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2013 Location: NC Posts: 545	It was mentioned that gun laws are passing in states all over or that if one passes others will follow. That is true, however, for the most part consistent with the red/blue state map.

April 3, 2013, 08:48 PM	#33
amathis Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2009 Location: Champlain Valley, Vermont Posts: 161	I would agree that this is like a poll tax. The problem is that precedent has already been set in a recent federal court hearing where US citizens are required to purchase a certain type of insurance. Regardless of whether we agree with it or not, they already have set the groundwork for this. Will it pass in Washington. Doubtful, unless the anti's take more seats. (kept intentionally ambiguous to keep it non political)

April 4, 2013, 04:20 AM	#35
Punisher_1 Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 136	Did the Loyalists of the Revolutionary time period try to disarm the Patriots prior to the revolution? Is this a repeat of history?

April 4, 2013, 08:26 AM	#36
Pointshoot Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 236	Punisher 1 - - - - "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana Of course, true American history purposely hasnt been taught in 'schools' for a very long time. Just ask any h.s. senior about the American revolution and watch the blank look you get. And that same look will likely be displayed by their parents - - - this degradation has gone on for 100 years. They also arent taught about logical thinking or arguments. If they were, theyd see that the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting are less than being struck by lightning. This is all a farce, and is really about CONTROL not 'safety'. Will Americans defend rights they know nothing about . . . I don't know. How can a people who are so easily manipulated (just look who they vote for) . . remain free ?