600 YDS. 69 gr. otm .224

panchoboots · October 31, 2010, 07:30 PM

I've recently purchased an ar-15 and of course reloading dies to match. I've got a little experience reloading, but only about 250 rounds of experience at reloading 223. I havent chronographed my rounds, but based off the adjustments I have to make and the b.c. of the bullet, I estimate my velocity to be around 2830-2850. My adjustments are 1/2 minutes clicks. at 100 yards my sight is up 3 clicks and I call that zero. 5 clicks for 200, 7 for 300, 9 for 400, and about 22 clicks for 500 yards. I'm using the start load of 24 grains of varget in a lake city case and 69 grain milspec otm bullets from wideners. I will be participating in a midrange prone match at 600 yards next week. Other than the wind blowing my bullet onto the other guys target, Is my velocity adiquate for 600 yards. I do notice a heck of a drop past 400, and possibly some tumbling at 500. I was thinking I could up the powder charge just a little, and maybe it will either stablize better, or get there before becoming unstable.

TXGunNut · October 31, 2010, 07:35 PM

Twist rate?

panchoboots · October 31, 2010, 09:43 PM

1:8 twist. dpms dcm. I plugged in all my numbers again, I think the velocity is actually just below 2800. I'm not 100% sure about the B.C. of the bullet. im assuming it would be close to sierra 69 grain hpbt match rounds.

TXGunNut · October 31, 2010, 09:57 PM

Sounds like you're on the right track, hopefully Capt. Kraig Stuart will drop by and lend his expertise. I think he has a better powder choice for you but my advice is to load every round with care and shoot the match! You'll learn more by doing that than you will hanging around here for a week, maybe a month. Take careful notes, talk to the top shooters and the match director and listen to their answers.

Jim243 · October 31, 2010, 10:19 PM

Based on the information you posted, I would guess you are between 2,670 and 2,700 fps. You could go up 0.50 grains of Varget with a OAL of 2.250. Or you could go with a lighter bullet of 60 grains and using the same load 24.0 grains of varget get to 2,900 fps. Not sure that the extra 9 grains of bullet will help that much in the wind, but the extra 200 fps will definatly help.

Just a thought.
Jim

TXGunNut · October 31, 2010, 10:41 PM

He's using LC brass, Jim. I'm thinking he's close enough to max, shooting the match will tell him more. I came up with similar velocities but stability is the goal here.

Bones · October 31, 2010, 10:50 PM

You're "good to go", take notes, temp, RH, wind, and light...

Don't forget your glasses and your hat....

panchoboots · November 1, 2010, 08:18 AM

Sounds like load them up and shoot them is what im going to do. Hopefully they wont be trying to parallel park onto the paper at 600.

Tim R · November 1, 2010, 02:59 PM

For 600 yards most AR shooters use a 80 gr SMK. 80's won't get blown around like the 69's will. The 80's are loaded long normally about 10 to 15 thousands off the lands. The 80 's are loaded one at a time as they won't fit the mag.

The 69 gr. mil spec bullet isn't going to shoot as well as a 69 gr SMK to start with. Reloader 15 is a great powder for the heavier 233 bullets. For 69's I use 24.8 grs of R-15 and for the 77's and 80 gr SMK's I use 24.4 grs of R-15 which is safe in my AR's which have tighter twist then yours. I also use Remington 7 1/2's to light things off in Lake City brass. CCI primers do well too. Stay away from Winchester and Federal primers for 223.

Don't get me wrong, Varget is a great AR powder but R-15 burns cleaner.

GI and Comm 223 brass are simular in weight for the most part. Federal 223 brass is heavy. I don't see a problem with switching Lake City with Winchester brass. 223 is not the same as 308 or 06 brass when it comes to GI vs Comm.

maestro pistolero · November 1, 2010, 03:49 PM

What brand 69 gr OTM is it? I have a projectile database handy. I'm showing .305 (G1) coefficient for Nosler 69 gr HPBT Match. And .321 (G1) for Lapua Scenar 69gr HPBT GB501.

**Unclenick** · November 1, 2010, 08:54 PM

It's anybody's guess. I believe OTM stands for Open Tip Match which is to avoid "hollow point" and the non-combat use issue. The maker might be Sierra if they were purchased originally for military match team use.

Hodgdon's site shows 24 grains as a starting load and 26 grains (compressed) as maximum. If your chamber is the size of theirs, QuickLOAD says the brass will be ejecting without about 31.6 grains fireformed water capacity. That matches their velocities well in QL, but they are using a Winchester case with a Winchester SR primer. You should knock about half a grain off their loads for the Remington 7 1/2 or any other magnum primer. Their velocities are from a 24" tube, but adjusting them down to 20" in QuickLOAD gives 2666 fps for 24 grains and 2887 fps for 26 grains.

If the bullet is the Sierra, and it is fired at 2666, it will be in the transonic range when it gets to the target, and that will not be good from the standpoints of stability or wind drift. It would be good to get it up another 100 fps, anyway. Somewhere around 25 grains. I have that listed as one of the loads I settled on in my AR, but I was using softer primers, so, again, half a grain less may be about right for the magnum primers.

Read Dan Newberry's site and use his method to pick a load in that range somewhere that does well for accuracy.

maestro pistolero · November 2, 2010, 03:45 PM

If

Quote:

the bullet is the Sierra, and it is fired at 2666, it will be in the transonic range when it gets to the target.

At only 600 yards?

kraigwy · November 2, 2010, 06:48 PM

I shoot 77s out of a 1:7. MV is about 2650, and has a remaining velocity 1410 @ 600. 80s will give your 1544.

Of course I only shoot the 77s at 2 & 300 yards and move to 80s at 600 & 1000.

I haven't shot many 69 grn bullets but according to Litiz program they should be 1282 fps @ 600. All assuming a velocity of 2650 fps.

Your 1:8 should handle the 77 SMKs, they hold up better and buck the wind a bit better. They remain supersonic a bit past 700. 80s to 1000 yards but you have to load them long and single feed them.

I got a box of Berger 90s but haven't tried them yet. Droping down to 2550 its still super sonic at 1000 yards.

JMHO

panchoboots · November 5, 2010, 04:18 PM

The bullet manufactur is prvi partizan. I've noticed a few very quite a bit as far bearing surface and diameter go. I've come to realise these arent the best for how far im shooting, but the match is tomorrow and ill just have to go learn the hard way. I'm shooting another match next week, same distance. If I can improve my score next week then that means I learned something tomorrow. Thanks for the info all. Hopefully I'll atleast be on paper tomorrow, and If not, Hope I shoot low so I can tell where to adjust.

TXGunNut · November 5, 2010, 07:32 PM

Have a great match, let us know how it goes!

panchoboots · November 6, 2010, 08:01 PM

In the words of borat, "great success". My score wasnt that great although im very pleased with a 157 on my first string. My main goal was just to get all rounds down range and on paper. My first sighter was short. I'm not sure exactly how short, but I added 2 minutes and got it on paper. They had a hard time scoring me in the pits because the round was border line super sonic. They wouldnt even know I shot half the time. My second and third string sucked, and the wind had picked up alot. All I was doing at that point was practicing my hold. I cant wait to use that load for the 200 yard line, but as far as the longer ranges, I need to tip the scale just a bit. The bullets werent tumbling at 600. I cleaned the crap out of the barrel when I thought they were at 500. It was either the paper, or dirty bore.

TXGunNut · November 6, 2010, 08:36 PM

Point is, you fired the match and learned something. Take careful notes and decide what you need to do to improve. Record what you did right. Learn how to deal with the wind.
Good job!

**Unclenick** · November 7, 2010, 09:59 AM

Congratulations on having an instructive match. Overall a success, I'd say. In your shoes, I'd go through Newberry's method to see what sort of groups you can get off the bench with them? If, at 200, they are 2 moa or more, I'd set them aside to load for the standing slow fire phase, unless you shoot exceptionally well in that position. Then I'd run the Sierra's for sitting rapid so the POI doesn't change (though I usually have to come down a click just because I tend to hold lower standing; that's individual, though).

The 77's are a worthwhile change to make at 300, where the wind starts to be more noticeable. They have a stubby shape so they can still be loaded to SAAMI max COL to feed from the magazine. Going to 80's loaded too long for the magazine, but fed singly, is standard practice for 600, as Kraig indicated.

Stick with the same powder throughout. Different powders build their fouling up differently, and it's not uncommon to need ten rounds for a rifle to settle after changing powder.

Kraig,

It seems to me there was an article in PS within the last 5 years or so where 80's and 90's were both tried at 1000 yards, and the 80's wound up having a slight edge. The 90's apparently were eating up too much powder space to get enough muzzle velocity to show quite as well for the author. I hadn't looked at them since that article, but I'd like to hear how they turn out for you and whether you can get them past the critical velocity from a 20" tube without having to resort to a narrow or regulated gas tube?

bfoosh006 · November 11, 2010, 10:30 PM

Panchoboots, Glad to hear the shoot was good.

Although I do have one suggestion... ( And no offense intended...) use better bullets, those OTMs from Wideners are not going to make your training any easier, they are not very consistent performers. The way I see it...If I am going to spend my reloading and trigger time, energy and money making 500+ yard loads then get a good bullet. Step up to at least the Sierra 69 HPBT Match bullet.... ( about $40/K more..) You might find it cheaper but, here is a good start price ..http://www.polygunbag.com/Sierra22Ca...argerView.html By using a proven performer you are narrowing down the variables you have to overcome. If you want to see about how much better the bullet is, buy a box of Fed. GMM 69 grain .223 ammo, you should see quite an improvement in the accuracy of your shooting.

And here are some good 55gr Poly tips...http://www.polygunbag.com/.223-55grainLargerView.html

http://radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm.... here is some more data..and..http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html....and ..http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf.... and one of my favorite websites on the net...http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=6&f=42...

Welcome to the world of the AR !

HiBC · November 12, 2010, 05:34 AM

I'm not a match shooter,and this may not be a bullet the winners use,I don't know.Hornady makes a 75 gr match (not the A-max)that has a good BC,loads to magazine length,is under $100 FOR 600,and,with Win brass,will get 2700 with Re-15,and stabilizes witrh a 1-8.

October 31, 2010, 07:30 PM	#1
panchoboots Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2010 Posts: 12	600 YDS. 69 gr. otm .224 I've recently purchased an ar-15 and of course reloading dies to match. I've got a little experience reloading, but only about 250 rounds of experience at reloading 223. I havent chronographed my rounds, but based off the adjustments I have to make and the b.c. of the bullet, I estimate my velocity to be around 2830-2850. My adjustments are 1/2 minutes clicks. at 100 yards my sight is up 3 clicks and I call that zero. 5 clicks for 200, 7 for 300, 9 for 400, and about 22 clicks for 500 yards. I'm using the start load of 24 grains of varget in a lake city case and 69 grain milspec otm bullets from wideners. I will be participating in a midrange prone match at 600 yards next week. Other than the wind blowing my bullet onto the other guys target, Is my velocity adiquate for 600 yards. I do notice a heck of a drop past 400, and possibly some tumbling at 500. I was thinking I could up the powder charge just a little, and maybe it will either stablize better, or get there before becoming unstable.

October 31, 2010, 07:35 PM	#2
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Twist rate? __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

October 31, 2010, 09:57 PM	#4
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Sounds like you're on the right track, hopefully Capt. Kraig Stuart will drop by and lend his expertise. I think he has a better powder choice for you but my advice is to load every round with care and shoot the match! You'll learn more by doing that than you will hanging around here for a week, maybe a month. Take careful notes, talk to the top shooters and the match director and listen to their answers. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights. Last edited by TXGunNut; October 31, 2010 at 10:16 PM.

October 31, 2010, 10:19 PM	#5
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Based on the information you posted, I would guess you are between 2,670 and 2,700 fps. You could go up 0.50 grains of Varget with a OAL of 2.250. Or you could go with a lighter bullet of 60 grains and using the same load 24.0 grains of varget get to 2,900 fps. Not sure that the extra 9 grains of bullet will help that much in the wind, but the extra 200 fps will definatly help. Just a thought. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

October 31, 2010, 10:41 PM	#6
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	He's using LC brass, Jim. I'm thinking he's close enough to max, shooting the match will tell him more. I came up with similar velocities but stability is the goal here. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

October 31, 2010, 09:43 PM	#3
panchoboots Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2010 Posts: 12	1:8 twist. dpms dcm. I plugged in all my numbers again, I think the velocity is actually just below 2800. I'm not 100% sure about the B.C. of the bullet. im assuming it would be close to sierra 69 grain hpbt match rounds.

October 31, 2010, 10:50 PM	#7
Bones Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2010 Posts: 122	You're "good to go", take notes, temp, RH, wind, and light... Don't forget your glasses and your hat.... __________________ READY on the "LEFT!"....READY on the "RIGHT!"...PULL!

November 1, 2010, 08:18 AM	#8
panchoboots Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2010 Posts: 12	Sounds like load them up and shoot them is what im going to do. Hopefully they wont be trying to parallel park onto the paper at 600.

November 1, 2010, 02:59 PM	#9
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	For 600 yards most AR shooters use a 80 gr SMK. 80's won't get blown around like the 69's will. The 80's are loaded long normally about 10 to 15 thousands off the lands. The 80 's are loaded one at a time as they won't fit the mag. The 69 gr. mil spec bullet isn't going to shoot as well as a 69 gr SMK to start with. Reloader 15 is a great powder for the heavier 233 bullets. For 69's I use 24.8 grs of R-15 and for the 77's and 80 gr SMK's I use 24.4 grs of R-15 which is safe in my AR's which have tighter twist then yours. I also use Remington 7 1/2's to light things off in Lake City brass. CCI primers do well too. Stay away from Winchester and Federal primers for 223. Don't get me wrong, Varget is a great AR powder but R-15 burns cleaner. GI and Comm 223 brass are simular in weight for the most part. Federal 223 brass is heavy. I don't see a problem with switching Lake City with Winchester brass. 223 is not the same as 308 or 06 brass when it comes to GI vs Comm. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

November 1, 2010, 03:49 PM	#10
maestro pistolero Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Posts: 2,153	What brand 69 gr OTM is it? I have a projectile database handy. I'm showing .305 (G1) coefficient for Nosler 69 gr HPBT Match. And .321 (G1) for Lapua Scenar 69gr HPBT GB501.

November 1, 2010, 08:54 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It's anybody's guess. I believe OTM stands for Open Tip Match which is to avoid "hollow point" and the non-combat use issue. The maker might be Sierra if they were purchased originally for military match team use. Hodgdon's site shows 24 grains as a starting load and 26 grains (compressed) as maximum. If your chamber is the size of theirs, QuickLOAD says the brass will be ejecting without about 31.6 grains fireformed water capacity. That matches their velocities well in QL, but they are using a Winchester case with a Winchester SR primer. You should knock about half a grain off their loads for the Remington 7 1/2 or any other magnum primer. Their velocities are from a 24" tube, but adjusting them down to 20" in QuickLOAD gives 2666 fps for 24 grains and 2887 fps for 26 grains. If the bullet is the Sierra, and it is fired at 2666, it will be in the transonic range when it gets to the target, and that will not be good from the standpoints of stability or wind drift. It would be good to get it up another 100 fps, anyway. Somewhere around 25 grains. I have that listed as one of the loads I settled on in my AR, but I was using softer primers, so, again, half a grain less may be about right for the magnum primers. Read Dan Newberry's site and use his method to pick a load in that range somewhere that does well for accuracy. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 2, 2010, 06:48 PM	#13
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I shoot 77s out of a 1:7. MV is about 2650, and has a remaining velocity 1410 @ 600. 80s will give your 1544. Of course I only shoot the 77s at 2 & 300 yards and move to 80s at 600 & 1000. I haven't shot many 69 grn bullets but according to Litiz program they should be 1282 fps @ 600. All assuming a velocity of 2650 fps. Your 1:8 should handle the 77 SMKs, they hold up better and buck the wind a bit better. They remain supersonic a bit past 700. 80s to 1000 yards but you have to load them long and single feed them. I got a box of Berger 90s but haven't tried them yet. Droping down to 2550 its still super sonic at 1000 yards. JMHO __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

November 5, 2010, 04:18 PM	#14
panchoboots Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2010 Posts: 12	The bullet manufactur is prvi partizan. I've noticed a few very quite a bit as far bearing surface and diameter go. I've come to realise these arent the best for how far im shooting, but the match is tomorrow and ill just have to go learn the hard way. I'm shooting another match next week, same distance. If I can improve my score next week then that means I learned something tomorrow. Thanks for the info all. Hopefully I'll atleast be on paper tomorrow, and If not, Hope I shoot low so I can tell where to adjust.

November 5, 2010, 07:32 PM	#15
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Have a great match, let us know how it goes! __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

November 6, 2010, 08:01 PM	#16
panchoboots Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2010 Posts: 12	In the words of borat, "great success". My score wasnt that great although im very pleased with a 157 on my first string. My main goal was just to get all rounds down range and on paper. My first sighter was short. I'm not sure exactly how short, but I added 2 minutes and got it on paper. They had a hard time scoring me in the pits because the round was border line super sonic. They wouldnt even know I shot half the time. My second and third string sucked, and the wind had picked up alot. All I was doing at that point was practicing my hold. I cant wait to use that load for the 200 yard line, but as far as the longer ranges, I need to tip the scale just a bit. The bullets werent tumbling at 600. I cleaned the crap out of the barrel when I thought they were at 500. It was either the paper, or dirty bore.

November 6, 2010, 08:36 PM	#17
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Point is, you fired the match and learned something. Take careful notes and decide what you need to do to improve. Record what you did right. Learn how to deal with the wind. Good job! __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

November 7, 2010, 09:59 AM	#18
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Congratulations on having an instructive match. Overall a success, I'd say. In your shoes, I'd go through Newberry's method to see what sort of groups you can get off the bench with them? If, at 200, they are 2 moa or more, I'd set them aside to load for the standing slow fire phase, unless you shoot exceptionally well in that position. Then I'd run the Sierra's for sitting rapid so the POI doesn't change (though I usually have to come down a click just because I tend to hold lower standing; that's individual, though). The 77's are a worthwhile change to make at 300, where the wind starts to be more noticeable. They have a stubby shape so they can still be loaded to SAAMI max COL to feed from the magazine. Going to 80's loaded too long for the magazine, but fed singly, is standard practice for 600, as Kraig indicated. Stick with the same powder throughout. Different powders build their fouling up differently, and it's not uncommon to need ten rounds for a rifle to settle after changing powder. Kraig, It seems to me there was an article in PS within the last 5 years or so where 80's and 90's were both tried at 1000 yards, and the 80's wound up having a slight edge. The 90's apparently were eating up too much powder space to get enough muzzle velocity to show quite as well for the author. I hadn't looked at them since that article, but I'd like to hear how they turn out for you and whether you can get them past the critical velocity from a 20" tube without having to resort to a narrow or regulated gas tube? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 11, 2010, 10:30 PM	#19
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	Panchoboots, Glad to hear the shoot was good. Although I do have one suggestion... ( And no offense intended...) use better bullets, those OTMs from Wideners are not going to make your training any easier, they are not very consistent performers. The way I see it...If I am going to spend my reloading and trigger time, energy and money making 500+ yard loads then get a good bullet. Step up to at least the Sierra 69 HPBT Match bullet.... ( about $40/K more..) You might find it cheaper but, here is a good start price ..http://www.polygunbag.com/Sierra22Ca...argerView.html By using a proven performer you are narrowing down the variables you have to overcome. If you want to see about how much better the bullet is, buy a box of Fed. GMM 69 grain .223 ammo, you should see quite an improvement in the accuracy of your shooting. And here are some good 55gr Poly tips...http://www.polygunbag.com/.223-55grainLargerView.html http://radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm.... here is some more data..and..http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html....and ..http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf.... and one of my favorite websites on the net...http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=6&f=42... Welcome to the world of the AR ! Last edited by bfoosh006; November 11, 2010 at 10:44 PM.

November 12, 2010, 05:34 AM	#20
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	I'm not a match shooter,and this may not be a bullet the winners use,I don't know.Hornady makes a 75 gr match (not the A-max)that has a good BC,loads to magazine length,is under $100 FOR 600,and,with Win brass,will get 2700 with Re-15,and stabilizes witrh a 1-8.