human resistance to being shot

Come and take it. · September 20, 2009, 08:54 AM

This is the video of the Mexican subway shootout. Its in a different language but does go in depth showing the shootout in a thorough step by step presentation.

Notice the man who takes four shots to his body yet has quite a bit of fight in him up to the fourth shot. Even the other people after being shot did not go down immediately if at all.

To me its a lesson in what to expect in a shootout even though the shooter in this case is the bad guy.

Not sure what type of gun he has but it has to at least be a 38 special.

If the video is too graphic than I will understand if the thread is locked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWQ7yX0V4BA

Dingoboyx · September 20, 2009, 09:09 AM

Remind me not to go to Mexico

Mello2u · September 20, 2009, 10:24 AM

From viewing the video it appears to me that the shooter had a short barreled handgun concealing a paper bag. Later in the video he is seen shooting a revolver with at least a 4" barrel while standing in the door of a subway car.

Tactics to learn from this?
The officer (man in uniform) who appeared to be the first victim of the shooting was either unarmed or failed to use his weapon against the armed shooter and seems to have been killed after being shot multiple times.

The civilian (in the white shirt) who left the subway car to try to neutralize the shooter was also unarmed and appears to have been shot multiple times. Even though wounded several times he continued to try to fight the shooter for many seconds.

Lesson #1 have a gun for a gunfight.
Lesson #2 shoot until the threat is neutralized, don't plan on one shot stopping the threat.

Willie Lowman · September 20, 2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

human resistance to being shot

Yep, it's the law of diminishing returns. The more you do something the less it affects you. Much like drinking, if you drink every day one drink won't make you feel much of a "buzz" anymore.

That's why I have my girlfriend shoot me in the torso a couple times a month. At first I just died. But after a few more times I was able to walk it off. These days I am like Stalone in one of his earlier movies! .45 hardball to the heart? Just a fleshwound!

...Wait... That isn't how it works at all.

danweasel · September 20, 2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

At first I just died.

An easy way to avoid this is to start with the arms and/or the leg BELOW the knee. Move on to the thigh and then to the torso. Ta-da! no death neccessary.

Come and take it. · September 20, 2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

From viewing the video it appears to me that the shooter had a short barreled handgun concealing a paper bag. Later in the video he is seen shooting a revolver with at least a 4" barrel while standing in the door of a subway car.

Tactics to learn from this?
The officer (man in uniform) who appeared to be the first victim of the shooting was either unarmed or failed to use his weapon against the armed shooter and seems to have been killed after being shot multiple times.

The civilian (in the white shirt) who left the subway car to try to neutralize the shooter was also unarmed and appears to have been shot multiple times. Even though wounded several times he continued to try to fight the shooter for many seconds.

Lesson #1 have a gun for a gunfight.
Lesson #2 shoot until the threat is neutralized, don't plan on one shot stopping the threat.

You could be right. I at first simply assumed the concealed gun was the same as the one he was later seen with at the end.

Its possible that the last pistol could have been taken from the dead police officer as it does appear to be a service revolver.

I thought it was odd that the gun he had hid in the bag seemed to have a lot of bullets in it without having to reload it, unless he was pretty well skilled in reloading a revolver from inside a plastic bag.

Double Naught Spy · September 20, 2009, 06:50 PM

Originally it was reported that the man in the white shirt was police, actually a federal agent, but this was later recounted and he was identified as a construction worker. I was impressed that as a cop he would go that far out of his way to protect the public when he could wait for backup. Now I am even more impressed. It is a shame he was killed.

Mr. Davis · September 20, 2009, 09:52 PM

The white-shirted construction worker that was killed is a sobering reminder that just because you're the "good guy" doesn't mean you're going to win the fight. He attacked on his own against an armed man, when it appeared most everyone was out of harm's way. He was exceptionally brave, and may have saved some lives, but since he was fighting alone and unarmed, he was doomed from the beginning.

21CFA · September 20, 2009, 10:04 PM

Wish I knew how to search for this video, which is about 4-yrs old. It is in L.A., Asian shop-keeper and wife robbed and terrorized by 5 Asian hoodlums, all on surveill. tape. As the hoods exit the shop by jumping over the counter, the owner has retrieved a revolver (I'm assuming) still in a paper-bag atop anther display-stand, and is protecting himself and his hostage-wife. As each perp clears the counter -- gun in hand -- the owner plugs him. 5 bgs with 5 shots, all cleanly dead. No charges filed. Point-shooting?? Instinct-shooting?? HHMmmm, probably just a lot of practice. And pi$$ed-off adrenalin rush.

MLeake · September 20, 2009, 10:09 PM

... and I am not sure about the comment about everybody being out of harm's way, because there are others around all through the segment of the video where he fights, and loses. So, he may have felt he needed to defend others in the area.

I don't mean to be critical, but in the interest of tactical analysis:

1) He drops his bag when he decides to charge the gunman, who is already turning toward him. He might have been better off if he'd hurled it at the guy, as a distraction, as he charged.

2) He keeps going for the gunman's gun hand. The gunman simply steps back, almost using the gun hand as bait; the construction worker's focus is solely on the gun. As a result of this, he never actually brings the attack to the gunman, and he never gets the gunman off balance.

3) Ideally, he'd have kept an awareness of the gun, but moved around it to unbalance the gunman; a disarm is much easier against an opponent who is off balance.

4) It's next to impossible to do a disarm from outside arm's length; one needs to get very close. This actually makes it harder for the gunman to bring the weapon to bear.

5) The gunman is the enemy, not the gun; never forget that you can't just deal with the weapon.

6) The construction worker might have employed more effective technique, yet still been shot and killed. One doesn't have to screw up to get hurt in a fight. In fact, one should expect a high likelihood of injury if one engages an armed person. Even when it's the best percentage move, it's never guaranteed.

TailGator · September 21, 2009, 09:14 AM

Sad that their were so many spectators standing by while a lone unarmed man tried to save them. Wondering how it might have come out if two or three other people followed the lead of the white-shirted man and gang tackled the gunman. Maybe more wounded but fewer dead?

A_McDougal · September 21, 2009, 12:55 PM

wow, that's an incredible video. Thanks for posting to it.

WW2 · September 21, 2009, 05:48 PM

Just remember that it is illegal for a private citizen to own a gun in Mexico without the Mexican Government's consent. There is only one gun store in all of Mexico.

So, the gunman knew the people would be unarmed, except for the police officer. Naturally, he took out the armed person first and then went to a shooting gallery.

Had some of the civilians been armed, this may have ended differently!

FNtastic! · September 22, 2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Remind me not to go to Mexico

Or Melbourne or Sydney. Bad if not worse imo.

Mello2u · September 23, 2009, 12:34 PM

Another tactical issue that the video raises in my mind is choice of shoes. You may notice that the guy in the white shirt went down several times. I can not determine what the cause(s) was/were for his losing his footing. It may have been because a number of things which might include that he was shot, something on the ground tripped him, or slick soled shoes.

I saw a training video of a state trooper who worked in the south west somewhere. He choose to wear cowboy boots on duty like a lot of other troopers. This trooper's dash-cam recorded a shootout that he was involved in. It shows him shooting and running as his feet were slipping and sliding as he quickly seeks cover. He later determined never to wear smooth soled cowboy boots on duty because he believes it almost cost him is life.

So what is the tactical consideration? Choose your foot wear with an eye towards traction and stability to best enable you to move and shoot.

Glenn E. Meyer · September 23, 2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

So what is the tactical consideration? Choose your foot wear with an eye towards traction and stability to best enable you to move and shoot.

And/Or - get out of Dodge at full speed.

ZeSpectre · September 23, 2009, 01:17 PM

Mechanically, the things that quickly kill or disable are...
-Trauma to a critical juncture of the central nervous system (brain, spine, etc)
-Cessation of blood circulation (either from blood loss, or damage to the heart)
-Critical structural damage (broken bones no longer supporting the body)

beyond that folks have a WIDE range of psychological responses but you can't count on that happening or even what will happen if you miss all of the "big three" above.

**Bud Helms** · September 23, 2009, 01:35 PM

The title here is human resistance to being shot. Is that the intended topic? Or is it human resistance to the trauma of being shot?

The discussion seems to be how some of the victims kept on functioning after being shot ... after. Not avoiding or resisting being shot.

Which is it?

Brit · October 1, 2009, 04:03 AM

Saw a video of a botched robbery in LA? it is a while ago, so not sure of the location, Mom and Pop store.

Three black males entered store, good quality picture, with sound, owners South Korean man and Wife, she behind counter, Husband standing to her left, at the side of the counter, she behind till.

All robbers armed, one in front of till said "Give me the money" middle aged owner (Male) said "No hurt" reply, mocking accent of Korean male, "No hurt" back handed Wife with Beretta 92, not hard, but knocked glasses half off.

Husband stepped forward, fast, hit wrist of #1 robber with left hand, ripped pistol free with right, #1, 2, and three were shot 3 times each, real fast triple taps, two hand stance.

#2 not moving, #3 squirming around on floor, stepping forward to take a head shot on #1, owner of store stopped and looked back at camera, did not shoot again.

Man and Wife, both 55 YOA, 3 robbers (not good ones) teens, with records, two dead, one in a wheel chair.

Husband ex Capt. South Korean Rangers!

Audience bunch of Firearms Instructors, clapping like little kids!

Nice when the good guy wins, yes?

Double Naught Spy · October 1, 2009, 05:42 AM

Somehow, I completely missed the relevance of Brit's good guy example to this thread.

ganai · October 1, 2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Somehow, I completely missed the relevance of Brit's good guy example to this thread

Might not have been his intent, but he gave a good example where there wasnt much resistance to (the trauma of) being shot :P

MLeake · October 1, 2009, 07:56 AM

The best resistance to being shot is taking the steps to not be shot in the first place.

The other kind of resistance to being shot is less optimal.

Brit · October 1, 2009, 04:14 PM

I am 74 next month you know LOL.

An other point, in not one of these instances were the good guy got shots away, did the BGs stay around, bad guys turned and ex filtrated, every one, bang, turned and ran.

Just think of the shooting range, no ear muffs, wow! now think of the muzzle blast, and that air disturbance, pointed at you!! The smell of cordite had to compete with a strong smell like a public toilet in the woods, like right now!

Come and take it. · October 1, 2009, 04:23 PM

Maybe in some circumstances it is the case of both adrenaline and basically accepting you will most likely die from the shots you are receiving but you plan to take your enemy down before you lose too much blood or you are hit in a critical spot like the head or a structural bone.

Maybe fight or flight response as contrasted to go into shock response.

vox rationis · October 1, 2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Saw a video of a botched robbery in LA? it is a while ago, so not sure of the location, Mom and Pop store.

Three black males entered store, good quality picture, with sound, owners South Korean man and Wife, she behind counter, Husband standing to her left, at the side of the counter, she behind till.

All robbers armed, one in front of till said "Give me the money" middle aged owner (Male) said "No hurt" reply, mocking accent of Korean male, "No hurt" back handed Wife with Beretta 92, not hard, but knocked glasses half off.

Husband stepped forward, fast, hit wrist of #1 robber with left hand, ripped pistol free with right, #1, 2, and three were shot 3 times each, real fast triple taps, two hand stance.

#2 not moving, #3 squirming around on floor, stepping forward to take a head shot on #1, owner of store stopped and looked back at camera, did not shoot again.

Man and Wife, both 55 YOA, 3 robbers (not good ones) teens, with records, two dead, one in a wheel chair.

Husband ex Capt. South Korean Rangers!

Audience bunch of Firearms Instructors, clapping like little kids!

Nice when the good guy wins, yes?

Brilliant! And happy birthday mate!

Those Koreans can be tough as nails. This reminds me..I have heard some great stories from a very credible source about Korean S.F. guys coming into bars in South Korea and intimidating and directly challenging US Soldiers to a fight right there and then; apparently these cats were all business and very very intense. Also I was in Lost Angeles during the Rodney King riots and I remember the Korean liquor store owners on their roofs with rifles protecting their livelihood with, well, great intensity.

September 20, 2009, 06:50 PM	#7
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Originally it was reported that the man in the white shirt was police, actually a federal agent, but this was later recounted and he was identified as a construction worker. I was impressed that as a cop he would go that far out of his way to protect the public when he could wait for backup. Now I am even more impressed. It is a shame he was killed. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

September 20, 2009, 10:04 PM	#9
21CFA Junior member Join Date: September 19, 2005 Posts: 146	A real essay in perfect off-hand shooting. Wish I knew how to search for this video, which is about 4-yrs old. It is in L.A., Asian shop-keeper and wife robbed and terrorized by 5 Asian hoodlums, all on surveill. tape. As the hoods exit the shop by jumping over the counter, the owner has retrieved a revolver (I'm assuming) still in a paper-bag atop anther display-stand, and is protecting himself and his hostage-wife. As each perp clears the counter -- gun in hand -- the owner plugs him. 5 bgs with 5 shots, all cleanly dead. No charges filed. Point-shooting?? Instinct-shooting?? HHMmmm, probably just a lot of practice. And pi$$ed-off adrenalin rush.

September 20, 2009, 10:09 PM	#10
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I commend the construction worker's bravery... ... and I am not sure about the comment about everybody being out of harm's way, because there are others around all through the segment of the video where he fights, and loses. So, he may have felt he needed to defend others in the area. I don't mean to be critical, but in the interest of tactical analysis: 1) He drops his bag when he decides to charge the gunman, who is already turning toward him. He might have been better off if he'd hurled it at the guy, as a distraction, as he charged. 2) He keeps going for the gunman's gun hand. The gunman simply steps back, almost using the gun hand as bait; the construction worker's focus is solely on the gun. As a result of this, he never actually brings the attack to the gunman, and he never gets the gunman off balance. 3) Ideally, he'd have kept an awareness of the gun, but moved around it to unbalance the gunman; a disarm is much easier against an opponent who is off balance. 4) It's next to impossible to do a disarm from outside arm's length; one needs to get very close. This actually makes it harder for the gunman to bring the weapon to bear. 5) The gunman is the enemy, not the gun; never forget that you can't just deal with the weapon. 6) The construction worker might have employed more effective technique, yet still been shot and killed. One doesn't have to screw up to get hurt in a fight. In fact, one should expect a high likelihood of injury if one engages an armed person. Even when it's the best percentage move, it's never guaranteed.

September 21, 2009, 05:48 PM	#13
WW2 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Location: Southern California. Posts: 254	Gun control at work... Just remember that it is illegal for a private citizen to own a gun in Mexico without the Mexican Government's consent. There is only one gun store in all of Mexico. So, the gunman knew the people would be unarmed, except for the police officer. Naturally, he took out the armed person first and then went to a shooting gallery. Had some of the civilians been armed, this may have ended differently!

September 23, 2009, 12:34 PM	#15
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,424	Another tactical issue that the video raises in my mind is choice of shoes. You may notice that the guy in the white shirt went down several times. I can not determine what the cause(s) was/were for his losing his footing. It may have been because a number of things which might include that he was shot, something on the ground tripped him, or slick soled shoes. I saw a training video of a state trooper who worked in the south west somewhere. He choose to wear cowboy boots on duty like a lot of other troopers. This trooper's dash-cam recorded a shootout that he was involved in. It shows him shooting and running as his feet were slipping and sliding as he quickly seeks cover. He later determined never to wear smooth soled cowboy boots on duty because he believes it almost cost him is life. So what is the tactical consideration? Choose your foot wear with an eye towards traction and stability to best enable you to move and shoot. __________________ NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat

September 20, 2009, 08:54 AM	#1
Come and take it. Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 999	human resistance to being shot This is the video of the Mexican subway shootout. Its in a different language but does go in depth showing the shootout in a thorough step by step presentation. Notice the man who takes four shots to his body yet has quite a bit of fight in him up to the fourth shot. Even the other people after being shot did not go down immediately if at all. To me its a lesson in what to expect in a shootout even though the shooter in this case is the bad guy. Not sure what type of gun he has but it has to at least be a 38 special. If the video is too graphic than I will understand if the thread is locked. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWQ7yX0V4BA

September 20, 2009, 09:09 AM	#2
Dingoboyx Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Location: South East Queensland, Australia Posts: 1,513	Remind me not to go to Mexico __________________ Muzza If you cant blind them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS Be alert...... there is a shortage of LERTs

September 20, 2009, 10:24 AM	#3
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,424	From viewing the video it appears to me that the shooter had a short barreled handgun concealing a paper bag. Later in the video he is seen shooting a revolver with at least a 4" barrel while standing in the door of a subway car. Tactics to learn from this? The officer (man in uniform) who appeared to be the first victim of the shooting was either unarmed or failed to use his weapon against the armed shooter and seems to have been killed after being shot multiple times. The civilian (in the white shirt) who left the subway car to try to neutralize the shooter was also unarmed and appears to have been shot multiple times. Even though wounded several times he continued to try to fight the shooter for many seconds. Lesson #1 have a gun for a gunfight. Lesson #2 shoot until the threat is neutralized, don't plan on one shot stopping the threat. __________________ NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat

September 20, 2009, 09:52 PM	#8
Mr. Davis Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 127	The white-shirted construction worker that was killed is a sobering reminder that just because you're the "good guy" doesn't mean you're going to win the fight. He attacked on his own against an armed man, when it appeared most everyone was out of harm's way. He was exceptionally brave, and may have saved some lives, but since he was fighting alone and unarmed, he was doomed from the beginning.

September 21, 2009, 09:14 AM	#11
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	Sad that their were so many spectators standing by while a lone unarmed man tried to save them. Wondering how it might have come out if two or three other people followed the lead of the white-shirted man and gang tackled the gunman. Maybe more wounded but fewer dead?

September 21, 2009, 12:55 PM	#12
A_McDougal Member Join Date: May 1, 2009 Posts: 48	wow, that's an incredible video. Thanks for posting to it.

September 23, 2009, 01:17 PM	#17
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	Mechanically, the things that quickly kill or disable are... -Trauma to a critical juncture of the central nervous system (brain, spine, etc) -Cessation of blood circulation (either from blood loss, or damage to the heart) -Critical structural damage (broken bones no longer supporting the body) beyond that folks have a WIDE range of psychological responses but you can't count on that happening or even what will happen if you miss all of the "big three" above. __________________ "The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"

September 23, 2009, 01:35 PM	#18
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	The title here is human resistance to being shot. Is that the intended topic? Or is it human resistance to the trauma of being shot? The discussion seems to be how some of the victims kept on functioning after being shot ... after. Not avoiding or resisting being shot. Which is it?

October 1, 2009, 04:03 AM	#19
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	Some times the good guy wins Saw a video of a botched robbery in LA? it is a while ago, so not sure of the location, Mom and Pop store. Three black males entered store, good quality picture, with sound, owners South Korean man and Wife, she behind counter, Husband standing to her left, at the side of the counter, she behind till. All robbers armed, one in front of till said "Give me the money" middle aged owner (Male) said "No hurt" reply, mocking accent of Korean male, "No hurt" back handed Wife with Beretta 92, not hard, but knocked glasses half off. Husband stepped forward, fast, hit wrist of #1 robber with left hand, ripped pistol free with right, #1, 2, and three were shot 3 times each, real fast triple taps, two hand stance. #2 not moving, #3 squirming around on floor, stepping forward to take a head shot on #1, owner of store stopped and looked back at camera, did not shoot again. Man and Wife, both 55 YOA, 3 robbers (not good ones) teens, with records, two dead, one in a wheel chair. Husband ex Capt. South Korean Rangers! Audience bunch of Firearms Instructors, clapping like little kids! Nice when the good guy wins, yes?

October 1, 2009, 05:42 AM	#20
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Somehow, I completely missed the relevance of Brit's good guy example to this thread. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

October 1, 2009, 07:56 AM	#22
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Funny, I find Brit completely on point The best resistance to being shot is taking the steps to not be shot in the first place. The other kind of resistance to being shot is less optimal.

October 1, 2009, 04:14 PM	#23
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	On point? I am 74 next month you know LOL. An other point, in not one of these instances were the good guy got shots away, did the BGs stay around, bad guys turned and ex filtrated, every one, bang, turned and ran. Just think of the shooting range, no ear muffs, wow! now think of the muzzle blast, and that air disturbance, pointed at you!! The smell of cordite had to compete with a strong smell like a public toilet in the woods, like right now!

October 1, 2009, 04:23 PM	#24
Come and take it. Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 999	Maybe in some circumstances it is the case of both adrenaline and basically accepting you will most likely die from the shots you are receiving but you plan to take your enemy down before you lose too much blood or you are hit in a critical spot like the head or a structural bone. Maybe fight or flight response as contrasted to go into shock response.