ATF Project Gunrunner - Page 51

Hardcase · October 6, 2011, 02:35 PM

According to the LA Times, Hoover convened a meeting (that included a DoJ official) to craft an "exit strategy" from the operation. The Times says that the consensus of the attendees, including the DoJ official, was that Fast and Furious should continue until they could get indictments to show that the operation was productive.

The article says that Hoover laid out 30, 60 and 90 day windows to shut it down. That was from March of 2010. The first indictments were handed down ten months later.

It would appear to me that Hoover was unable to shut down Fast and Furious because somebody above him in "Justice" would not allow it.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug...-guns-20110811

jimpeel · October 6, 2011, 02:43 PM

test.

Can't seem to get to page 51

EDIT: Well, that didn't work at all. Still can't get there.

alloy · October 6, 2011, 03:42 PM

It's been like that for me the last week, but if you post you can see that you are seeing the last post. Maybe there's a time delay.

Older vid, but not the type response you might expect from someone upset over this thing, or wanting to get to the bottom of the matter and take appropriate action after a period of prolonged silence. Seems like more of a general "ho-hum", compared to the lengthy response or actions you might get if a Cambridge cop asks a guy if he's at the right house. Maybe a Gunwalker beer summit is in the works.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7371762n

Al Norris · October 6, 2011, 03:46 PM

If your using the default 25 posts per page, then Page 51 started with alloy's post above.

C0untZer0 · October 6, 2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

according to memos, emails and other material obtained by The Times, along with transcripts of sworn depositions and Capitol Hill testimony, the Justice Department provided the initial impetus for what became Fast and Furious

That could be anything from putting pressure on BATFE to make higher-level gun busts (impossible if you think about it) or it could mean that DOJ came to BATFE and told them exactly what they were going to do...

Bartholomew Roberts · October 6, 2011, 04:26 PM

I've got to give Jake Tapper his due. I've bashed him in the past because I felt that his past role as a Handgun Control, Inc. employee biased his coverage of the NRA and other gun issues he covered for ABC.

However, he has done really well with reporting on Fast and Furious and is one of the few reporters to continually bring it up with the President during White House press conferences, including the only one today to bring it up. You might think that having the Chairman of the House Judiciary ask you to appoint a Special Prosecutor to investigate your Attorney General for perjury might spark a question or two. I'm surprised both that only one reporter had the nerve to bring it up and that Tapper was that reporter.

C0untZer0 · October 6, 2011, 04:52 PM

I haven't seen a single reporter come right out and ask the President if he was going to apoint a Special Prosecutor.

Maybe I missed it...

HarrySchell · October 6, 2011, 05:24 PM

Nobody has or likely will.

Obama and cadre will ban them from the pool or something. This is past disgusting and into scary.

Just what else is out there, being covered up by "reasonable reporters"?

Mr. James · October 6, 2011, 11:52 PM

As to Ovomit, just don't be the first guy in the press pool to stop clapping.

HiBC · October 7, 2011, 01:17 AM

I heard Rush mention ,after she appeared on Laura Ingraham,Ms Attkinson seemed scarce.Rush was wondering is someone ought to drive by and check on her for OK.Then later,he mentioned she had filed a story of some kind on Thursday.

Thats a bit of out in the open exposure.I suspect one way to stir up trouble with the press is getting caught trying to shut one up.

I hope Ms Attkinson keeps writing,and I hope Rush keeps his eye on her.

alloy · October 7, 2011, 05:10 AM

She was on O'rielly last night.
Said she has more info to release, but wants/needs corraboration.

Here's the interview.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreill...ylist_id=86923

Hardcase · October 7, 2011, 09:20 AM

My Congressman, Raul Labrador, called for AG Holder's resignation yesterday:

http://labrador.house.gov/index.cfm?...,49&itemid=423

Given the President's response to the sole question on F&F yesterday, I don't expect it to be forthcoming.

Bartholomew Roberts · October 7, 2011, 10:13 AM

Sharyl Attkisson's latest report covers Wide Receiver:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20115824.shtml

According to the FFL involved in Wide Receiver, this program allowed guns to walk and started in 2006! It is difficult to get a precise number of guns involved since there were actually several different cases apparently. The FFL says he sold about 450 guns to straw purchasers. The one big case, Wide Receiver, involved 269 guns; of which only 47 were seized by law enforcement. At this time, the status of the others is still unclear (meaning potentially 222 guns walked). The program was run by the same ATF Phoenix office that would later give us Fast & Furious. And for some strange reason, the investigation stopped and there were no charges for several years, then in 2010, they charged 7 low-level straw purchasers and wrapped the investigation.

Ironically, the U. S. Attorney handling Wide Receiver until 2007 was Paul Charlton, the same attorney who is now suing the government on behalf of the Terry family. According to the Arizona Daily Star, Charlton has stated he did not authorize guns to walk; but acknowledges responsibility if that happened "on his watch."

I don't know if the accusations will stick to Holder; but clearly someone at DOJ is lying. We've gone from "There was no gun walking to DOJ didn't know about gun-walking to DOJ knew about gun walking; but it wasn't Fast and Furious they knew about it."

Chaz88 · October 7, 2011, 01:18 PM

Put your tinfoil hat on for a second. It has been suggested in the thread that letting more guns go south was an attempt to manufacture a reason for more gun control.

The DEA is continually under fire for spending huge amounts of money and not producing much of a lasting impact during the last 70 years of the war on drugs.

Could this have also been a way to make the cartels look bigger and badder than they are? Then make the ATF and DEA look like heroes when they finally rush in and save the day by shutting down the bad guys?

Basically a widespread plot to artificially escalate a problem so that the government can step in on multiple levels save the day and justify their paychecks.

HarrySchell · October 7, 2011, 01:30 PM

Chaz, as multiple people are slowly concluding, the idea this op(s) was undertaken to nail some capos in Mexico is past fantasy and incompetence, completely unreal. About as hopeful of success as walking away from a game of Russian Roulette played with a 1911 and a full magazine.

As Sherlock Holmes (or was it some engineer?) said..."if we know what something ISN'T, we are getting closer to figuring out what it IS."

So even Anderson Cooper's reporter on the scene reported that the theory of F+F being a political gambit of some sort is more likely the more information that arises. The conspiracy "nuts" are not so nutty at all, compared to the people trying to sell the "narrative".

Tinfoil is optional, methinks.

KyJim · October 7, 2011, 01:53 PM

Sherlock Holmes stated at various times with minor deviation , "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

DOJ's current story is Holder was given some information about cases buried in reports and simply did not pay that much attention to them. But, IIRC, at least one of the reports referred to "hundreds" of guns walking. You would think that would get the Attorney General's attention.

Added: Okay, here's a memo which is dated July 5, 2010 and refers to a case which says "...straw purchasers are responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to the Mexican drug trafficking cartels." Look at page 3 of the pdf document, numbered page 4 of the report: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pd...in;contentBody

Folks, this is a 12 page weekly report of major cases. This is not a two hundred page document where something like this might conceivably go unnoticed. And DOJ claims Holder didn't notice 1,500 illegally purchased?

jimpeel · October 7, 2011, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaz88

Could this have also been a way to make the cartels look bigger and badder than they are? Then make the ATF and DEA look like heroes when they finally rush in and save the day by shutting down the bad guys?

Basically a widespread plot to artificially escalate a problem so that the government can step in on multiple levels save the day and justify their paychecks.

You mean like "Showtime" at Waco?

rantingredneck · October 7, 2011, 03:13 PM

I heard on the radio on the way home today that there's a group of Arizona Sheriffs that are calling for Holder's resignation or termination and an investigation into how and why the US Government is feeding the flow of weapons to cartel elements in their respective jurisdictions without their knowledge.

BGutzman · October 7, 2011, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Basically a widespread plot to artificially escalate a problem so that the government can step in on multiple levels save the day and justify their paychecks.

Over the years I have heard more than a few local cops who worked for whatever reason with federal law enforcement.... It seems to me there is a feeling that many in federal law enforcement seem to have a superiority complex as big as Texas and a work ethic as small as a pea...

If that is a true picture of how it really is I have no Idea but there is clearly a dislike of many agents at the federal level for whatever reason...

I myself have no real basis to make a judgement other than second hand comments...

It seems to me if they do feel superior then there is no need to justify anything and this is just another political play.

gc70 · October 7, 2011, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyJim

Folks, this is a 12 page weekly report of major cases. This is not a two hundred page document where something like this might conceivably go unnoticed. And DOJ claims Holder didn't notice 1,500 illegally purchased?

People like Holder don't have to read the documents. Reports like the one cited are the handouts for regular meetings in which department heads keep the boss updated on what is happening in their respective departments. Holder may not have read a report or noticed a sentence about 1,500 guns, but some Deputy AG would have made darn sure that Holder heard about the 'important work' being done in that Deputy AG's department.

Al Norris · October 7, 2011, 08:17 PM

"Wide Receiver is not Fast and Furious.

‘Wide Receiver’ CI: ‘It had nothing to do with Bush or even DOJ’" David Codrea spills the beans.

Kurt Hofmann: "Gunwalking" then and now: The differences

Don't blame Obama... Blame Bush! <-- the mantra is coming apart at the seams.

KyJim · October 7, 2011, 08:24 PM

Quote:

People like Holder don't have to read the documents. Reports like the one cited are the handouts for regular meetings in which department heads keep the boss updated on what is happening in their respective departments. Holder may not have read a report or noticed a sentence about 1,500 guns, but some Deputy AG would have made darn sure that Holder heard about the 'important work' being done in that Deputy AG's department.

That's exactly what Holder is claiming in a letter today to Congress. http://www.foxnews.com/interactive/p...t-and-furious/

pnac · October 7, 2011, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Don't blame Obama... Blame Bush! <-- the mantra is coming apart at the seams.

I don't care if it goes back to George Washington, fixing it won't start until all the cards are on the table! This left-right crap, to the detriment of justice, has got to stop.

Al Norris · October 7, 2011, 08:36 PM

I quite agree, pnac. Just because something similar happened under the Bush administration does not excuse this fiasco.

Both were wrong.

The problem here is that under Wide Receiver, the operation was stopped when they noticed that their (limited) safeguards were bypassed and 450 guns were walked. Under Fast & Furious, no safeguards were used and it didn't stop until a US Border Agent was murdered.

Over at Pajamas Media, Bob Owens lays out the differences and calls for heads to roll under both administrations.

KyJim · October 7, 2011, 08:56 PM

Holder is blaming Congress for the straw purchase problem to deflect blame from Fast and Furious. He says ATF officials testified before Congress that penalties for straw purchases are not severe enough to dissuade law breakers or to provide incentive for violators to cooperate with law enforcement. Lack of reporting requirement for multiple long gun purchases in a short period of time is a problem. "[T]oo many in Congress are opposed to any discussion of fixing loopholes in our laws that facilitate the staggering flow of guns each year across our border to the south."

http://www.foxnews.com/interactive/p...t-and-furious/

So, here it is. Just as most of us knew. Fast and Furious is being used as a tool for tougher gun laws. The gloves are off.

October 6, 2011, 02:35 PM	#1251
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	According to the LA Times, Hoover convened a meeting (that included a DoJ official) to craft an "exit strategy" from the operation. The Times says that the consensus of the attendees, including the DoJ official, was that Fast and Furious should continue until they could get indictments to show that the operation was productive. The article says that Hoover laid out 30, 60 and 90 day windows to shut it down. That was from March of 2010. The first indictments were handed down ten months later. It would appear to me that Hoover was unable to shut down Fast and Furious because somebody above him in "Justice" would not allow it. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug...-guns-20110811 __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

October 6, 2011, 02:43 PM	#1252
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	test. Can't seem to get to page 51 EDIT: Well, that didn't work at all. Still can't get there. __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

October 6, 2011, 05:24 PM	#1258
HarrySchell Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2007 Location: South CA Posts: 566	Nobody has or likely will. Obama and cadre will ban them from the pool or something. This is past disgusting and into scary. Just what else is out there, being covered up by "reasonable reporters"? __________________ Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will. — Mark Twain

October 6, 2011, 11:52 PM	#1259
Mr. James Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: The Old Dominion Posts: 1,521	As to Ovomit, just don't be the first guy in the press pool to stop clapping. __________________ "...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li "When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat

October 7, 2011, 01:17 AM	#1260
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Re,post 1242,Sheryll Attkinson I heard Rush mention ,after she appeared on Laura Ingraham,Ms Attkinson seemed scarce.Rush was wondering is someone ought to drive by and check on her for OK.Then later,he mentioned she had filed a story of some kind on Thursday. Thats a bit of out in the open exposure.I suspect one way to stir up trouble with the press is getting caught trying to shut one up. I hope Ms Attkinson keeps writing,and I hope Rush keeps his eye on her.

October 6, 2011, 03:46 PM	#1254
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	If your using the default 25 posts per page, then Page 51 started with alloy's post above.

October 6, 2011, 04:26 PM	#1256
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	I've got to give Jake Tapper his due. I've bashed him in the past because I felt that his past role as a Handgun Control, Inc. employee biased his coverage of the NRA and other gun issues he covered for ABC. However, he has done really well with reporting on Fast and Furious and is one of the few reporters to continually bring it up with the President during White House press conferences, including the only one today to bring it up. You might think that having the Chairman of the House Judiciary ask you to appoint a Special Prosecutor to investigate your Attorney General for perjury might spark a question or two. I'm surprised both that only one reporter had the nerve to bring it up and that Tapper was that reporter.

October 6, 2011, 04:52 PM	#1257
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I haven't seen a single reporter come right out and ask the President if he was going to apoint a Special Prosecutor. Maybe I missed it...

October 7, 2011, 09:20 AM	#1262
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	My Congressman, Raul Labrador, called for AG Holder's resignation yesterday: http://labrador.house.gov/index.cfm?...,49&itemid=423 Given the President's response to the sole question on F&F yesterday, I don't expect it to be forthcoming. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

October 7, 2011, 10:13 AM	#1263
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Sharyl Attkisson's latest report covers Wide Receiver: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20115824.shtml According to the FFL involved in Wide Receiver, this program allowed guns to walk and started in 2006! It is difficult to get a precise number of guns involved since there were actually several different cases apparently. The FFL says he sold about 450 guns to straw purchasers. The one big case, Wide Receiver, involved 269 guns; of which only 47 were seized by law enforcement. At this time, the status of the others is still unclear (meaning potentially 222 guns walked). The program was run by the same ATF Phoenix office that would later give us Fast & Furious. And for some strange reason, the investigation stopped and there were no charges for several years, then in 2010, they charged 7 low-level straw purchasers and wrapped the investigation. Ironically, the U. S. Attorney handling Wide Receiver until 2007 was Paul Charlton, the same attorney who is now suing the government on behalf of the Terry family. According to the Arizona Daily Star, Charlton has stated he did not authorize guns to walk; but acknowledges responsibility if that happened "on his watch." I don't know if the accusations will stick to Holder; but clearly someone at DOJ is lying. We've gone from "There was no gun walking to DOJ didn't know about gun-walking to DOJ knew about gun walking; but it wasn't Fast and Furious they knew about it."

October 7, 2011, 01:18 PM	#1264
Chaz88 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2010 Posts: 1,243	Put your tinfoil hat on for a second. It has been suggested in the thread that letting more guns go south was an attempt to manufacture a reason for more gun control. The DEA is continually under fire for spending huge amounts of money and not producing much of a lasting impact during the last 70 years of the war on drugs. Could this have also been a way to make the cartels look bigger and badder than they are? Then make the ATF and DEA look like heroes when they finally rush in and save the day by shutting down the bad guys? Basically a widespread plot to artificially escalate a problem so that the government can step in on multiple levels save the day and justify their paychecks. __________________ Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time. No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.

October 7, 2011, 01:30 PM	#1265
HarrySchell Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2007 Location: South CA Posts: 566	Chaz, as multiple people are slowly concluding, the idea this op(s) was undertaken to nail some capos in Mexico is past fantasy and incompetence, completely unreal. About as hopeful of success as walking away from a game of Russian Roulette played with a 1911 and a full magazine. As Sherlock Holmes (or was it some engineer?) said..."if we know what something ISN'T, we are getting closer to figuring out what it IS." So even Anderson Cooper's reporter on the scene reported that the theory of F+F being a political gambit of some sort is more likely the more information that arises. The conspiracy "nuts" are not so nutty at all, compared to the people trying to sell the "narrative". Tinfoil is optional, methinks. __________________ Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will. — Mark Twain

October 7, 2011, 01:53 PM	#1266
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	Sherlock Holmes stated at various times with minor deviation , "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." DOJ's current story is Holder was given some information about cases buried in reports and simply did not pay that much attention to them. But, IIRC, at least one of the reports referred to "hundreds" of guns walking. You would think that would get the Attorney General's attention. Added: Okay, here's a memo which is dated July 5, 2010 and refers to a case which says "...straw purchasers are responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to the Mexican drug trafficking cartels." Look at page 3 of the pdf document, numbered page 4 of the report: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pd...in;contentBody Folks, this is a 12 page weekly report of major cases. This is not a two hundred page document where something like this might conceivably go unnoticed. And DOJ claims Holder didn't notice 1,500 illegally purchased? Last edited by KyJim; October 7, 2011 at 02:02 PM.

October 7, 2011, 03:13 PM	#1268
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	I heard on the radio on the way home today that there's a group of Arizona Sheriffs that are calling for Holder's resignation or termination and an investigation into how and why the US Government is feeding the flow of weapons to cartel elements in their respective jurisdictions without their knowledge. __________________ NRA Member NC Hunter's Education Instructor PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

October 7, 2011, 08:17 PM	#1271
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	"Wide Receiver is not Fast and Furious. ‘Wide Receiver’ CI: ‘It had nothing to do with Bush or even DOJ’" David Codrea spills the beans. Kurt Hofmann: "Gunwalking" then and now: The differences Don't blame Obama... Blame Bush! <-- the mantra is coming apart at the seams.

October 7, 2011, 08:36 PM	#1274
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	I quite agree, pnac. Just because something similar happened under the Bush administration does not excuse this fiasco. Both were wrong. The problem here is that under Wide Receiver, the operation was stopped when they noticed that their (limited) safeguards were bypassed and 450 guns were walked. Under Fast & Furious, no safeguards were used and it didn't stop until a US Border Agent was murdered. Over at Pajamas Media, Bob Owens lays out the differences and calls for heads to roll under both administrations.

October 7, 2011, 08:56 PM	#1275
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	Holder is blaming Congress for the straw purchase problem to deflect blame from Fast and Furious. He says ATF officials testified before Congress that penalties for straw purchases are not severe enough to dissuade law breakers or to provide incentive for violators to cooperate with law enforcement. Lack of reporting requirement for multiple long gun purchases in a short period of time is a problem. "[T]oo many in Congress are opposed to any discussion of fixing loopholes in our laws that facilitate the staggering flow of guns each year across our border to the south." http://www.foxnews.com/interactive/p...t-and-furious/ So, here it is. Just as most of us knew. Fast and Furious is being used as a tool for tougher gun laws. The gloves are off.